A silly little quandary, but how do you balance this out? On the one hand, this is a game where people are supposed to interact, and "Interaction skills" are what get that along, but then some scenarios will pop up where the other person is just adamant that they don't want to do what you say, be your friend, or help you out. What's a good way to get the NPC (we'll assume it is) to have the Interaction challenge? The players have spent hard-earned XP on boosting their skills up, but the NPC might not care how persuasive you are, or threatening, or smart. But if you just say "no, she won't be persuaded to do that", you don't want it to feel like just GM fiat; why did they invest in the skills, then, but also, if your players are a bit advanced, or even twinkish, there might be no believable way for them NOT to pass the test, depriving the NPC of any ability to say no other than to just "say no", and make the players ask that previous question.

Has this been an issue for anyone, or am I just over-worrying about it? I really like the Interaction challenge system, like Warpstorm uses, and could easily modify it to use in Lure, prior, but I'm not sure it works. Say you use Bastille. He really doesn't have a great reason to team up with you, already having what he believes is enough stuff to win. You could build the challenge in his favor (Very Hard -30, -10 each additional for Peer (Navy) or Peer (Sun Lee)), but they might twink through it, or view it as impossible. Charlabelle might seem a better candidate, since her resources aren't what Bastille's are, but her pride could still make her just "say no". What's a good balance for these, where you can actually get someone to partly go against their own wants, but not feel like they had no choice in it? I hope I was clear enough, here. I admit some of it will just be "good role-playing", which also isn't so effected by bad dice rolls, but I also prefer a mechanical advantage, to justify having it, in the first place.

Some NPC's just won't do some things. Period. There should be no way for the players to roll their way around reality or your story.

It's hard to know how to answer without knowing the context. Some challenges are just too ridiculous.

[Character to Archon] "Hey Mr. Archon, I want your "Turns-All-Opponents-Into-Dust Sword. Give it to me."

[Player to GM] "I have Charm 80, and another 40 points of bonuses, for a total of 120."

[GM thinking to self] Right. And I have a Big Rock that's about to drop.

[Nice GM to Player] Okay, make a contested Hellish roll vs. the Archon's (Intimidate, Scrutiny, Commerce, Barter, or what-have-you)

or conversely

[Mean GM to Player] He gives you his sword. Would you like to Dodge or Parry?

Well played, Errant Knight. I've got my remix...

[Character to Archon] "Hey Mr. Archon, I want your "Turns-All-Opponents-Into-Dust Sword. Give it to me."

There should be room for characters to use social skills to get what they want - to a point. I think the key is thinking is there any reasonable way an npc might give a given idea the time of day. Using that archon example. He's not going to give up that sword, unless *maybe* the PC has convincingly dangled some incredible prize in front of them to make a deal of it. And even then it would be a brutal check. This is assuming that sword is one the archon isn't particularly attached to, say a standard model.

Well, at the risk of using a terrible example, it seems weird that, after some RP wrangling, a Rogue Trader can make an Acquisition roll to acquire a vortex warhead, but some much lesser, maybe silly things, some lesser NPC will just say "no."

So, since I'm only half alive right now, I'll psot this example, and if it gets the frown faces, or disgust, I might not remember having posted it. Say we are using my seductive RT. He goes into a room for a gala, and there are several attractive women there, let's say Captain Locke, Captain Orleans, and Lady Sun Lee. Qel-Drake will make his rounds of the room, and see if any of the ladies are interested in spending some time together. Instead of just saying "hay, wanna ______?", I'd expect more of an Interaction challenge, where they gauge his character (wanting?), his reputation, and decide if it's worth it, if they want to, and such. Still, under some circumstances, I'd imagine they would just say "no", because that's the answer. Now, Qel-Drake has Charm for more resons than that, but it's his favorite use of the skill, and questionable why it's worth getting so high if all they need to do is say no, and cancel the challenge; some people can be convinced, and then it isn't forcing them, but Qel-Drake's Charm is his highest skill, with Fellowship being probably his highest stat, and Talented (Charm), all built mechanically, by spending allocated points, so I don't feel like I just said "he's a Charmer, so he is." He's not going to miss it often, probably pulling two or three degrees of success, and he'll hit on most ladies he sees. Short of the creepy aspect of this path, where's the line between "no means no!" and "if you actually talk to her, get to know her, and don't look like your just deviant cretin, she might actually find you interesting. It's how you got most of your Maidens, and plenty of them never sleep with you." (Getting into story crap, at this point)

You go to a temple, and ask to temporarily procure their relic. Now get them to agree to the challenge that, against several built players, they can probably easily fail, rather than just say "nom the Cudgel of St. Drusus will never leave this shrine, nor are your hands worthy to touch the relic." There are some ridiculous things Rogue Traders can get, and I doubt it's always just a matter of money, or even favors. The vortex warheads, above, too. How much money are you giving them, and why do such esoteric people care? But how do you get them to Interaction challenge, and even get a shot, when there is literally little to no good reason to give you two if their total five vortex weapons, amongst the most terrifying devices Mankind can (or could) make?

I apologize for the ludicrousness above, but yay sleep deprivation, and if i just give the context appropriate to the character, and say "well, they might think I'm an ass, but they've probably figured that out by now; I read my own posts, too." You can focus on the warp nukes, and not-Drusus's weapon (he is a Lord Solar Macharius-analogue), if I crossed a line of your comfort, and sorry.

HAH! So it's SEX! Well, why didn't you just say so? I don't think that's crossing any lines, and if it is the Puritans might not want to read this post any further, either. I don't see a problem with any of the above examples. If the Rogue Trader needs a vortex warhead, or even a Life Eater Virus or Cyclonic warhead, he'd probably have to present a very pressing reason. That given, I think the Imperium might make it available. It's probably cheaper than having to detail a Space Marine Chapter to take care of the problem at hand. And, Rogue Trader Dynasties are one of the few insitutions trusted enough to handle such weaponry. Mind you, in my 'verse that would be limited to only the most trusted RT Dynasties, not those even vaguely and even unjustly suspected of questionable acts. But, if the Head of a Dynasty renowned for exterminating many planets full of vile xeno scum came to the proper authorities and requested such a device because the problem currently facing them was too large and dangerous to exterminate in a more conventional means, I think an Acquisition Roll would be appropriate. The answer would probably be, "No," but the dice would probably favor a "No" result. The roleplay would likely be extraordinary and said Figure of Awesome Authority would probably act disappointed that they could not fulfill the request.

Now in the case of the RT getting laid, I can't possibly see an issue. I'd be disappointed if I were the player and the GM simply ruled that my character couldn't seduce an NPC. Now if my character had killed said NPC's entire family in some heinous and immoral fashion, that might be a reasonable factor. Then again, if my character had killed said NPCs father in an honorable duel I'd expect the GM to give me significant penalties and let me make the dice roll anyway. After all, it's not something that's going to change the fairness of the game for other players. It's not something that's going to alter the structure of a plotline more significantly than an alliance without the copulation aforehand. It's part of the roleplay of your character concept and should make for a good laugh for all involved.

Sex is different. When you're a Rogue Trader in all your gauche fabulousness, ****** and champagne rain down from the heavens upon you. In addition, as part of your duties under the warrant, you are obligated to bed all attractive women you come upon. The only rolling you'd have to do is the Willpower (-50) to resist banging the governor's daughter.

That vortex torpedo isn't normally the personal possession of that lower down NPC. As far as I can see, the acquisition system isn't intended for personal-scale negotiation, but more of an abstract when dealing with entire organisations. There's a big difference between dealing with "the local Mechanicus" versus dealing with "Magos Blackspear" with his preferences, goals, and biases.

I ran into an issue like the one described herein at the Lathes - player wanted to bring there a piece of "unpatterned" human technology - anyways - PC Seneschal knows about the Lathes (perhaps event had the Talent Peer - Mechanicus); so once there engages with mid-tier representatives; PC is like I want to talk to the top or someone who can make big decisions - again delegated to a mid-tier entity who's passion+less demeanor only served to annoy the PC.

At the end of the day - the masters of the Lathes (yes PC went shopping around dangling the prize at them) sought what they had, sure but weren't about to cow-tow to the lowly mortal PCs even if they are Rogue Trader Peers...

Long story short - this is an ongoing action - and has/will result in further complications which to me is the 40k way (read a novel and at each clip there is resistance and contention - i.e. a story has conflict). It has gone into the realm of espionage now and political maneuvering - moreover those masters (or one of the three) has sent a "contriversal" figure amongst the Lathes to accompany the PCs to the place where such a prize was found - on the surface of things ATM today - the mechanicus attache (ship with crew and controversial leader inside of it) is there to server and support - tomorrow who knows what role they will assume...

Happy Gaming

Morbid

I'm generally with the crowd that says PCs need a hook to even attempt certain checks, be it something to trade, something to offer or a convincing enough reason. A recent example from yesterday's session would be our inquisitorial team gaining access to a planet's commissariate by plausibly claiming to be the next of kin (with the correct papers) of a deceased commissar. This should gain them access to anything a relative may have, such as the battlefield report on cause of death, the man's belongings, funeral arrangements etc, with greater or lesser success, dependant upon checks.

Now, without that hook, they'd never get inside short of flashing their rosette. Similarly, the same train of thought applies to most interactions, even "Hey, wanna ****?". You need to look the part, you need to have something the other character either relates to, wants, fears or all of the above and finally, you need to be good at the talky stuff; but being good at the talky is really the smallest part of an interaction. You can have the charisma of a brick, if you give enough credits to the right person, you're going to get what you want. If this conveys that social skills are rather limited in my campaigns, then this is true. That is not to say that having them is a detriment, but like any other skillset, persuasion needs the correct tools and approach.

Blanket-charming people into doing what you want is something we've actually kicked someone out of the group for, because he kept insisting with his 120 charm he should be able to persuade literally anyone of anything, to the point it became seriously disruptive for the rest of us and the GM would hang her head and sigh when he opened his mouth in a social situation (ergo the typical Slaanesh player in a black crusade game...). It really doesn't work. It's completely implausible, unless you're in a position where you can promise people something they want.

In short:

Opportunity->Bait and Hook->Skill check is how it should go.

In the concrete example above with the seduction skill it's essentially that. You have the opportunity in the social setting, the bait of being a prominent, wealthy rogue trader, and so, it should be trivial to just roll it. In the example with people having absolutely no good reason to give you their vortex weaponry, the ball is entirely in the PC's court. If they want to roll it, they need to get creative. I'm not going to do their work for them. I'm sure they can come up with a convincing enough reason to need that vortex warhead if they really put their minds to it (after all, you are allowed to flat out lie to NPCs and forgery is a skill, too...). But it's really not my responsibility as a GM to do that work for them. If they can't or won't put thought into it, no vortex weapons. It's that simple.

Allow the roll, with appropriate modifiers for things like attitude and circumstances.

If the PC succeeds despite whatever crazy penalties you impose, then have the NPC offer a lesser reward.

Take the Archon above, he might not be willing to part with the sword, but maybe he can offer the PC a different boon instead. It'd then be on the PC's head if he refuses it.

My methodology is...

Present Skill Test if Test fails - append a Consequence to the situation now or - save that consequence for later as either its own issue or one that adds to another issue... (PROVERBIAL DROP IN THE BUCKET)

Just like the game has an "Endeavors" system - I use a system to record and track pending "Complications"

So say your proverbial bottleneck is as following:

EXAMPLE

PCs must get into PLACE (say a Palace) in order to join the ball and view / observe who's attending (that's their aim/goal - reconnaissance)

The Bottleneck is the entrance - its guarded with costume dressed security - when the PCs come up to the guards - they opt (its their choice what tactic or skill to use, I don't tell or guide them); so they opt to use say Blather in order to distract the guards and have them over look 1 of the 5 PCs (who is holding everyone Else's concealed weapons at that moment).

So the PC rolls the Blather Test and fails!

Consequences NOW: Pay the Guards to forgot and have your "armed" friend leave (thus the PCs still get in but albeit without their weapons)

<OR>

Consequences LATER: Using little more than social status - the PCs remind the guards of their station as opposed to that of their masters (the PCs being higher on the political totem pole, per say) - and thusly are granted entrance without having their "mule" checked / search by the guards. But now the guards don't like the PCs and will take extra effort towards watching the PCs while they are on the property...

Yea, I just wing it.

My rules:

1. You can't roll any test if penalties are set your effective trait at 0 or lesser.

2. "This is not the droids you're searching"-issue used into Stormtroopers who knows they're looking droids, knows this IS droids, are determined, have Darth Vader on orbit and have absolutely no reason to let you pass will have, well, -60. Yes, that's kinda impossible until you have effective charm roll 61+. If you have you're good enough to try.

Yes, just that simple.

my take on "the impossible" is usually one of time....

Yes you have plus One Hundred-Umpty-One to your Charm skill;

yes anyone in the galaxy would concede what you're saying, even a bloodthirster.

BUT: the players are almost always in a time crunch of one limit or another.

So, Yes you could persuade this brick-wall eventually. You do not have the time to do so at this juncture.

Winning this person over is an endeavour level effort, you have 4 other endeavours on your plate.

Non-coincidentally, this exact same logic gets thrown at the ad-mech.

Yes you have plus One Hundred-Umpty-One to your Tech-Use skill;

so Yes any device in the galaxy could be invented, repaired, or altered by you, even an Infinity Gauntlet.

But the engineer does not have time to tinker right now, due to ongoing quests or obligations.

So, Yes you could dissect & diagnose this machine eventually. You do not have the time to do so at this juncture.

Sorry, part of it was just thinking the GM might say "I don't want to put up with this silliness, and it probably isn't important to the campaign, so they just say no", and that means all the effort to be a social machine is wasted, unless it's the social bit the GM planned for, to carry the story. It's a safe bet that, no matter what you do, combat will be a thing, and so you should try to be good at it, but if you want to be a more social-oriented creature, it might not come up as often.

For my silly example, for instance, Aedan Qel-Drake will probably walk up to several women, and proposition them; even if he isn't really interested, by this point, he's got a bit of a reputation for it, and if he doesn't, other people who make a living noticing when "the high and mighty" are acting strangely will wonder what's up. If you think he's just a young, womanizing fop, which he is, you might make it easier to be surprised when he's also a competent fighter, carrying an Eldar sword and an inferno pistol. Still, what GM wants to take the time to put up with acting this crap out, especially when he's NOT hitting on the important Administratum envoy they might be there to talk with, but some other RT's fine void mistress? It's tedious, I wholly agree, but it's sort of one of what would be his "getting into character" and role-playing opportunities, but totally wasted when you just walk into the party at Damaris, see the fine, strong, and possibly unsatisfied Lord-Captain Sylvia Locke, and all the GM does is say "she looks at you with contempt, and informs you that you are a fool wasting his time." Certainly, this could easily be a possibility, as much as "your Charm and Fellowship are so high, you almost always just win by rolling", but one took effort, and points, and the other was just the GM not wanting to put up with silly shenanigans, because the character is a goof, among the grimdark.

Okay, I'm done babbling, now, about my weird hypotheticals. Just trying to see how you MIGHT get someone into an Interaction Challenge, when they otherwise may feel no interest in it. If you were doing Lure, just for a "real" example, you might think it wise to get in well with Bastille, being as he's the most powerful of those NPCs, as initially portrayed (your mileage may vary), but the book says he's very closed toward allegiances, and especially so if you aren't very disciplined professional, like a military, if you ARE a military ally (he hates you, then, anyway), and/or have any alliances with Lady Sun Lee. Thus, trying to see how you might get the good opportunity to roll against him, socially, instead of just him rolling ship BS against you, because you "bothered him, and wasted his time". If your GM modified his Colossus to be a real ship (read: challenge to PCs), you could be in for a world of hurt. Whether you are a social snowflake, or not, just getting the chance would be nice, rather than the GM just saying "no."

First and foremost as a GM I wouldn't tell my players what my NPCs skills or bonuses are for their side of the interaction check.

Eg the Highborn your character approaches might have Fel45 Charm or scrutiny +20 Ettiqutte for +10 a chaperone watching her for +10 and have taken some mood altering drug for the party for another +10 giving her an effective roll of 95 which is nothing to be sniffed at before you get on to disposition.

Point is as GM the PC might not really know whether they are speaking to an autofail NPC or a NPC equally skilled in interaction.

Also what is being requested is going to make a massive difference to modifiers and potentially create Brickwall situations

Trying to bang some Highborn probably could just be an interaction check. Just because they will sleep with you doesn't mean you have gained any political power. Hell they might have been the one seducing the Pc. But that's different from then them handing over the entry codes to thier father's treasure vault which might have hellish difficulty.

For this reason I wouldn't have one interaction check. I would have a number. Break down the Brickwall into a number of pieces all with different skills and difficulties. Basically combat isn't resolved in one check why should interaction?

For this reason I wouldn't have one interaction check. I would have a number. Break down the Brickwall into a number of pieces all with different skills and difficulties. Basically combat isn't resolved in one check why should interaction?

Social Challenges, Into the Storm p204