Yeah, we don't need more factions, just more ships.

Once you have a cheap swarmer (Z95/TIE Fighter/Z95), an interceptor (A Wing/TIE Interceptor/M3A), an all rounder (X Wing/TIE Advanced/Khiraxz), a Heavy Assault fighter (B Wing/TIE Bomber/Y Wing) an elite fighter (E Wing/Starviper/TIE Defender) and a Heavy Bomber (K Wing/TIE Punisher/?) are there really very many slots left?

I'm hesitant on this point. You just might be right. Although aside from the mentioned niches I'd say we have a few more present in the game already, at least supporters and turrets. I can't myself think of a new niche, but I wouldn't be surprised if FFG managed just that (did the heavy scyck open up a new niche? long distance snipers?). I'd also say that the niches mentioned are wide enough to comfortably allow more than one ship per niche and faction without one overshadowing the other. This is in fact the case with at least YT 1300/2400, interceptors/phantoms and Y wing/B wing.

Crossing the different niches would also be a way forward, and has already been done (for example the B-wing). This could probably be successfully done in the point regions were we yet have only a few ship, namely 15-19 ( for ps 1 or 2) and 30-35 (for ps 1-2). Except for a few ships that require upgrades (hwk/Y-wing/bomber) the only ships in the first region are A-wings and interceptors, the second one is only held by the (slightly overcosted) defender (big bases not included). The first region seems fit for a cross between a swarmer and an all purpose fighter, the second one I don't know.

FFG has also shown a will to play with the firing arcs. This would also open up a lot of new design space.

I guess I disagree and still have faith in the developers creativity.

I did really liked your post though

I'd really like to see the Starwing come out. Scum are limited to EU ships or looted Imperial/Rebel ships.

I think FFG can last for a few more years if they space out their waves more, dig for some decent EU ships, and do a few Aces packs with repaints and new pilots for existing ships.

I'd like to see them try to incorporate missions into competitive play. Having goals besides "Blow up the other guys stuff" makes the game less focused on raw killing power.

Then...

I'm new to the game and frankly I was wondering what was going on with the lack of Prequel ships.

Don't get me wrong I'm all about that OT and I am LOVING my Interceptors and Defender and I cant wait to expand into other Imperial ships. But the prequels have a handful of truly good things and the ship designs are among them (at least for me.) it makes sense to utilize them for reasons the OP has presented.

As for "but it doesnt make time sense!" it's only been 37 years between "Yippee!" and Vader tossing Palpetine off a bridge. For a modern military analog the AK-47 saw its first official use in 1947 and today remains a very capable weapon. (I cant think of any good aircraft analogs but we are in a technology rennisance.

Mig-21s were in production for 26 years and I believe there are still some air forces which use them which would give them a service life of over 50 years. I believe there are still some F-4 Phantom IIs in active service which would bring its service life up to over 50 years while its service life in the nation that designed it was around 36 years. The F-16 has been in production for around 40 years and I think production continues as does its active service which has been around 37 years. And I believe the MIG-29 has been in both production and active service for over 3 decades as well.

Pretty sure (i'll try to find the source later, i'm going out now) i heard that they simply do not have a licence for the prequels. Certainly Alex Davy has said several times that there is zero chance they can do prequels.

If that is indeed the case, any advantages or disadvantages are pretty moot. It wont happen.

Well given the number of PT and TCW ships that have appeared in the RPG they clearly do have the license for them unless the RPG and Miniatures licenses are different somehow.

Nice write up, I like the Idea. As long as FFG does not make "Uglies" I am ok.

I like Uglies so I hope they hurry up and make some ASAP. Why do you hate them?

The percentage of fans that like the prequels is small and easily outnumbered by those that hate them, introducing ships would anger far more people than it pleases.

The percentage of fans that like the prequels is small and easily outnumbered by those that hate them

I hate the prequels.

None of that hate comes from the ships in those movies. And in fact I find a lot of those ships to be really cool.

The problem with the ships from the PT is they look and feel more advanced than the OT stuff, and that's due to the excessive about of CGI and Lucus only caring about making toys not consistency

I don't even really think that's a problem with all prequel ships though. It's mostly just a problem with ships made by Theed Palace engineering, like the N-1, or Amidala's various ships. And even then, I don't really consider it a problem, because it totally fits thematically.

Those ships are designed by a wealthy, artistic society, for use by their planet's royal forces, it makes sense for them to be super glossy and smooth.

The ships the Clone army use and whatnot is a lot more in line with the OT. Which is appropriate given that it's is all mass-produced military hardware.

That's always my complaint when people complain about a ship not "fitting" the look of the SW universe. I always want to point out that SW is an entire galaxy filled with countless different races, and different ship manufacturers, each with their own design aesthetic.

And I agree. I hate the prequels but the ships, and even IMO the factions and causes of the war were fine. It was the bad characterization that ruined it and that won't be a problem in a miniatures game.

Claiming that an N-1 is technically superior to an X-Wing just because it looks nicer is like claiming that a 1950s Rolls-Royce is technically superior to a 1990s Ford Focus or Toyota

Empire vs Empire or Rebel vs Rebel can't be avoided fairly in a tournament setting. Allowing anachronistic Separatists vs Rebel or Republic vs Empire is avoidable. It's too ridiculous for me.

The ARC-170 is an ugly flapping insect and the N-1 is is a glittering mosquito, but the avoidable absurdity would be too much for me.

The CEO stated his intentions not to include them. But if you think he's making a mistake because you happen like them, then by all means continue to believe he'll change his mind.

Separatists vs Rebel, Separatists vs Empire, Republic verus Rebels Republic vs Empire actually can be justified in story IMO, especially given that the game is still Legends material.

According to the Essential Guide to Warfare there were still Separatist holdout groups active during the OT era and while many of these stayed out of the Alliance's way and vice versa there was at least one sector where the GCW was a three way fight between the Empire, the Alliance, and the local Separatist holdout forces.

Republic verus Rebel could be explained as rebels operating in a low priority Imperial area which never received the newer ships. Imperial verus Republic could be explained as the Empire facing a rebel force which still has the older hardware. Where it would be a little more complicated would be a three or four way game with Rebellion, Empire, and Republic forces all facing each other but still not impossible to explain. The Republic ships could be from an independent resistance force that distrusts the Alliance enough to be willing to fight both Alliance and Empire. Perhaps they used to be part of the Alliance and feel it betrayed them somehow, most likely by not answering a call for help from the resistance force for some reason.

I am still waiting for the ships to have a second release. i am not going to buy 4 of the same ship. I hope FFG makes releases with new pilots and upgrades soon. Aces are fine too.

The question becomes, if you don't have new factions, which factions do you assign these old ships to?

My picks:

Rebels:

Arc-170(same manufacturer as X-Wing)

V-Wing(*-Wing ship name)

Imperial:

Eta-Actis Interceptor(same manufacturer as TIE Fighters)

N-1(made by the Emperor's homeworld)

Scum:

All Seperatist ships. Belbullab-22, various Droid fighters, etc.

Can't decide where the Aethersprite should go. On the one hand, it's the same manufacturer that makes Star Destroyers. On the other hand, Rebels need more ships, and it just feels like a Rebel ship.

They clearly view the lore as secondary to gameplay (as they quite righly should) otherwise the Defender would have had six attack dice, 4 defence dice and a couple of extra hull and shield points. If the Republic and Separatists were added as new factions, the ships would be comparable to the Rebellion era ones. The whole point of a new faction is that they'd have a new playstyle, much like Scum does, not that they'd be inherently weaker (even if that did kind of make sense in the lore). Also, remember that the Y Wing and Z-95 were around in the Clone Wars, and they have comparable stats to pure rebellion era craft.

How many times does this have to be reposted, guns =/= attack dice. Even then, the Defender only has 4 laser cannons. MJ has done comparisons to what stats for ships should be, and the Defender should be 3/3/3/4, meaning that it is very accurate to what it should be. FFG has done a pretty good job making stuff right lorewise.

The question becomes, if you don't have new factions, which factions do you assign these old ships to?

My picks:

Rebels:

Arc-170(same manufacturer as X-Wing)

V-Wing(*-Wing ship name)

Imperial:

Eta-Actis Interceptor(same manufacturer as TIE Fighters)

N-1(made by the Emperor's homeworld)

Scum:

All Seperatist ships. Belbullab-22, various Droid fighters, etc.

Can't decide where the Aethersprite should go. On the one hand, it's the same manufacturer that makes Star Destroyers. On the other hand, Rebels need more ships, and it just feels like a Rebel ship.

Actually, the V-wing belongs in Scum as it was very extensively used by pirates.

The question becomes, if you don't have new factions, which factions do you assign these old ships to?

My picks:

Rebels:

Arc-170(same manufacturer as X-Wing)

V-Wing(*-Wing ship name)

Imperial:

Eta-Actis Interceptor(same manufacturer as TIE Fighters)

N-1(made by the Emperor's homeworld)

Scum:

All Seperatist ships. Belbullab-22, various Droid fighters, etc.

Can't decide where the Aethersprite should go. On the one hand, it's the same manufacturer that makes Star Destroyers. On the other hand, Rebels need more ships, and it just feels like a Rebel ship.

Actually, the V-wing belongs in Scum as it was very extensively used by pirates.

Try Imps.

The best way to do prequel ships is as a separate-but-similar game. Theoretically the stats could stay compatible, but balancing prequel ships vs the existing swathe is an exercise in futility.

Would also need a system to handle droid pilots, and would be a chance to fix the ordnance situation.

I've actually been trying to do this, it's been a fun experiment.

The prequels are horrible and I will have none of it.

Laserdisc forever!

TIE Raptor is alright looking. I would rather have that any prequel ship, all the prequel ships have that late 90's, early 2000's generic futuristic CGI look to them. At least the K Wing doesn't have that 'blah' look to it.

Also in regards to "niche" roles. I think the prequel and clone wars ships have many they can use.

N-1

A mix between an x-wing and z-95. Would be most similar to a z-95 obviously, but would have torpedo instead of missile like an x-wing, as well as an astromech slot like an xwing (or unhinged if it's with scum). Also a barrel roll is a must (try spinning!).

Vulture Droid Fighters

Only thing close to this in the game right now is ig-88. Perhaps they would work similarly, in that they can share abilities the more you take? Also very likely to be the first sub-12 point ship. It would have no shields, and probably only 2 hull. At least 3 agility though so it's not an install kill everytime. Also would be able to carry missiles...with a title probably. (New buzz droid missile anyone?)

Droid Tri Fighter

Similar to above, but a bit heartier. No missiles probably but would definitely would have a cannon slot though.

V-Wing

Because of astromech, either gives another option to rebels/scum, or first imperial astromechs for empire. Probably best not to go rebel since they have so many astromech ships already.

ARC-170

Easily the most options to play with of all the ships. Would be second ship overall and first small ship to include a rear firing arc. Would also have a crew and astromech slot. Maybe cannon slot as well? I see it being similar to a b-wing, which means it would need to be for imperials or scum.

They could also get clever and do some kind of "old" retrofit that makes the z-95s and y-wings cheaper if they are "supposedly" the older versions from the clone wars, so they would take a minor hit in stats somewhere.

N-1 could actually do with a system slot, given the whole autopilot thing and FFG's fluffing of system upgrades as automatic/guarantee.

Vultures are pretty wierd to balance. The original Naboo-era versions would have a torp slot (energy torpedoes), later ones would have a missile slot (Discord Missiles are the buzz-droid ones, by the way). Named droid pilots are an extreme rarity, but instead of ability-linking, how about PS? Basically an 8-ship PS1 swarm would have PS8 until a ship was killed, at which point it would drop to PS7 and so on.

Tri-fighter actually does have missiles.

V-wing would actually be better /without/ an astromech (it specifically only ever had space for the spherical Q7-series. I'd just give it a stat boost of some sort to compensate. Keep in mind that the ARC-170, Delta-7, Eta-2, and N1 would all have astromech slots, so the Republic would have lots of choice.

No cannon slot for the ARC-170, in the modified system I'm working up aux-arc and outside-arc turret shots would roll 1 less red.

This is all based on a Republic/Confederacy standalone system rather than shoehorning CW-era ships into the existing factions, though.

Regarding buzz droids, I think the easiest way to do this is allow it to take either missile or torpedo slots.

Also, starvipers should be able to equip them (see: Zann Consortium).

Another possibility would be to give the vulture's a combined slot. Make it a slashed symbol or combined symbol. Equip either missiles or torp but only one per symbol.

But then starvipers don't get the buzz droids and that makes me sad.

Zann Consortium is basically a full-retard insert faction with no real place in the game.

What I was basically going to do was have the original brown Naboo-era versions at PS1 with torp slots, then the next-highest generic would have missile. Combined slot isn't a bad idea, though the symbol might be fiddly.

V-Wings may have been the TIE Fighter of the Empire during it's first years, but no self respecting Imperial commander would still be fielding them in the Rebllion era.

But I could see the N-1 being, like, the classic sportscar of any Naboo Imperial official.

And the Actis remained Vader's ship of choice up until they developed the Advanced. And given that it truly is like the predecessor of the TIE, I could again, see it still being in the collections of a few Imperials.

balancing prequel ships vs the existing swathe is an exercise in futility.

Not really sure what's so hard about making them crappier, but cheaper.

balancing prequel ships vs the existing swathe is an exercise in futility.

Not really sure what's so hard about making them crappier, but cheaper.

The game doesn't exactly have the stat range to do that right. Low attack values (there are prequel ships that relative to OT ships should have ATK1) don't work very well in the established system.

Prequel AGI values should be higher across the board, but that would break vs current ships since punching high-AGI also does not work well.

making ships cheaper, especially baseline PS1s runs into massive swarm problems.

In short, being unable to comprehend the difficulty does not mean it is immediately removed.

The game doesn't exactly have the stat range to do that right. Low attack values (there are prequel ships that relative to OT ships should have ATK1) don't work very well in the established system.

Like I said, giving the N-1 and V-Wing only 1 Shield seems fairly straightforward. And giving the V-Wing and the Actis only a 2 Hull does as well.

It's less about making the old ships weaker offensively, and more about making them more fragile.

The V-Wing is the only one that doesn't really seem like a downgrade from the ship that replaced it. Since even with a weaker Hull, the fact that it has Shields and an Astromech slot makes it seem like an improvement over the TIE Fighter.

Not sure why. The only ones that seem more maneuverable seem like that because of their Jedi pilots, which they wouldn't have in this game(unless, for example, they gave Imperial Actis Interceptors a generic Inquisitor pilot option).

Like I said, giving the N-1 and V-Wing only 1 Shield seems fairly straightforward.

It's less about making the old ships weaker offensively, and more about making them more fragile.

Except they generally were weaker offensively. It's still better to have all prequel stuff balanced against itself so that the stat spread still allows enough granularity to make prequel ships actually different from each other

The V-Wing is the only one that doesn't really seem like a downgrade from the ship that replaced it. Since even with a weaker Hull, the fact that it has Shields and an Astromech slot makes it seem like an improvement over the TIE Fighter.

It is an improvement over a TIE, but giving it a 'mech slot is silly given that it was only ever physically compatible with a single mech model due to a completely

non-standard socket.

Not sure why. The only ones that seem more maneuverable seem like that because of their Jedi pilots, which they wouldn't have in this game(unless, for example, they gave Imperial Actis Interceptors a generic Inquisitor pilot option).

If they want to sell prequel ships, they have to have prequel pilots. There's really no way around it from a marketing standpoint. Ergo, Jedi pilots and the high AGI that comes with (although even with sline pilots the Eta-2 is just that agile)

If the Naboo fighter hits the table I'm out.

And rid yourself the opportunity to blast the ever living f**k out of some cheesy grinning good guy nabooish a**hole?

Your loss.

Now that's looking at the bright side of life

Empire vs Empire or Rebel vs Rebel can't be avoided fairly in a tournament setting. Allowing anachronistic Separatists vs Rebel or Republic vs Empire is avoidable. It's too ridiculous for me.

The ARC-170 is an ugly flapping insect and the N-1 is is a glittering mosquito, but the avoidable absurdity would be too much for me.

The CEO stated his intentions not to include them. But if you think he's making a mistake because you happen like them, then by all means continue to believe he'll change his mind.

Separatists vs Rebel, Separatists vs Empire, Republic verus Rebels Republic vs Empire actually can be justified in story IMO, especially given that the game is still Legends material.

According to the Essential Guide to Warfare there were still Separatist holdout groups active during the OT era and while many of these stayed out of the Alliance's way and vice versa there was at least one sector where the GCW was a three way fight between the Empire, the Alliance, and the local Separatist holdout forces.

Republic verus Rebel could be explained as rebels operating in a low priority Imperial area which never received the newer ships. Imperial verus Republic could be explained as the Empire facing a rebel force which still has the older hardware. Where it would be a little more complicated would be a three or four way game with Rebellion, Empire, and Republic forces all facing each other but still not impossible to explain. The Republic ships could be from an independent resistance force that distrusts the Alliance enough to be willing to fight both Alliance and Empire. Perhaps they used to be part of the Alliance and feel it betrayed them somehow, most likely by not answering a call for help from the resistance force for some reason.

If you have to go to such great lengths to suspend my disbelief, you haven't.

I don't see any problem with walking into a room of, say, 20 tables of X-wing games and only seeing a few x-wings and a few Y-wings ties and a mix of non OT ships

As a player, I agree with you. If I were the head of FFG's marketing department, I don't think I Would. The SW brand is the most important aspect of this game to those guys. It has to be kept strong, and I can't believe that it wouldn't be figuring into their decisions about how to grow the game, especially if they're thinking long term (as in, Warhammer long term, and selling the game for years, even decades).

I doubt that, sure star wars may have brought in a lot of us at the start but what keeps most of us playing is how good the game is and how well balanced it is.

The long term survival of the game is based on how entertaining it is not how many x-wings are sitting on the table

I'd like to see some EU/prequel ships as 'older models'. Namely the arc170 and the Vwing.

Vwings are used by empire remnants just after the GCW in some of the comics so they would fit in well with the empire as rear area defence force fighters.

I know a lot of people hate uglies but i think you could make a winner of a pack with a 'modular' uglies box that had seperate components that you could peg togehter (probably have to glue them) to make a number of variants and provide ship chits/cards for a dozen or so 'common' uglies. (a bit like the old star wars 'droid factory' playset from the 80s... you could make r2d2 or you could make a dozen other types of droid that all clipped together!)

as for licenses though. I dont think its as simple as 'if they have the license for star wars they can do what they like'

Big companies are very canny about licensing. Licensing will be done in packets to make the most money.

Like when i was at GW we might license *elements* of 40k but you dont give say THQ carte blanche to do what they like with that huge universe. You say to them, you can include x, y and z.

I remember this because we had a memo go around once forbidding us from using 'necromunda' in main 40k products back story, colour text etc so we could license 'necromunda' without licensing 40k as a whole. bear in mind this was GW who were very amateur at the time and even they knew that you dont show all your cards or give someone access to all your IP for one payment if you can make it into ten saleable items.

as others have said, its far more likely they have a licence to make ships from the OT and EU related to that timeline so that Lucas/Disney could sell them separate rights to the PT.

I'd imagine that FFG weighed up the cost of a PT license against sales/popularity and decided it was not worth it.

The thing that makes this game so succesfulll is Star Wars theme.

The thing that limits this game so hard is also Star Wars theme.

I love star wars, but I play this game because is about Starfighters. So I don't mind where they come from, I want more starfighters!

Hit the nail on the head you did mate

But I will take it one step further, I want space ships lots and lots of good quality spaceships

This. Anyone that says they would keep buying in spite of bad game design/balance isn't telling the truth. Most people would quit buying or buying near as much if it were just for the models.

It doesn't matter if ship X is 100 years older than ship Y. If that's the case, let ship Y's model look 100 years newer than ship X's model, but when they hit the table, stats need to be balanced and fun for gameplay.

Also, I don't like the idea of just making a newer starship cost more points because it is more advanced. I don't like 2 ship builds and I don't want my matches to keep dropping in ship numbers.

If the ship needs to feel more advanced than others, then make it a cheap ship with lots of upgrade slots so it can be fielded generic to get lots on the board or one powerful one. And if this throws off point costs give taxes to use different upgrade slots.

I would also like to see FFG toy with the idea of some(Keyword SOME) starfighters having different point costs associated to it based on how many Dice/HP/Green/Red/White maneuvers it starts out with. (for the record, I know this would be a balance nightmare, but a guy can be hopeful, right?)