FFG's medium term problem -or- How I learned to stop worrying and love the prequels.

By MacchuWA, in X-Wing

So, the advent of Wave seven and heavy bombers had gotten me thinking that FFG might have a bit of an issue in the medium/long term for X Wing. While the SW universe is vast and detailed enough that they have ships to choose from for years, there are only a limited number of niches within the game for those ships to fill. Once you have a cheap swarmer (Z95/TIE Fighter/Z95), an interceptor (A Wing/TIE Interceptor/M3A), an all rounder (X Wing/TIE Advanced/Khiraxz), a Heavy Assault fighter (B Wing/TIE Bomber/Y Wing) an elite fighter (E Wing/Starviper/TIE Defender) and a Heavy Bomber (K Wing/TIE Punisher/?) are there really very many slots left?

Sure, there are gaps to fill: The Y Wing is more of a turret fighter than a heavy hitter, and the Imps don't really have an equivalent. The rebels don't have a fixed forward firing large base ship, and scum don't have a large base turret or a heavy bomber. But all of these gaps can, and likely will, be filled within a wave or two: The TIE Aggressor as an imperial Y Wing, the Scurrg as a Scum heavy bomber, Dengar's Punishing One as a scum turret ship.

The question then becomes: What happens next? FFG seem to have only a limited number of options, none of them really good.

1. They could declare X-Wing basically "done" as far as new ships go, and just release the occasional Aces type pack or epic ship. This seems extremely unlikely, given that X Wing is a major cash cow for FFG. This almost certainly won't happen.

2. They start releasing "gimmicky" ships that are differentiated from existing ships by providing a variation on the rules specific to that particular ship. The problem here is that gimmicks are extremely hard to balance. Price them too high, or make them too minor, like the defenders white K Turn, and the ships become unlikely to see much play. Price them too low, or make them too powerful, like the old phantom, and they completely dominate the metagame and squeeze everything else right out. This is obviously fraught with difficulty.

3. They start releasing ships that very clearly retread the ground of existing classes, like the T-Wing (a slightly worse A Wing) or the R-41 Starchaser (a Z-95 competitor). This seems like the most likely, unfortunately, but will almost certainly result in the new ship either being worse than it's predecessor, and therefore not selling well/used much, or better than its predecessor and completely eclipsing it (ala the B Wing vs the X Wing). This then leads to people clamouring for a fix for the weaker ship, which is how you get power creep.

Long term, I feel like the only solution is increasing the number of factions, and doing so relatively soon. This would probably involve new starter packs, featuring, for example, an N1 Starfighter and two droid Starfighters (starting the "Republic" and "Separatists" factions) and/or a T-70 X Wing and two black TIE Fighters, starting the "Resistance" and "First Order" factions.

This has a number of advantages that I can see over the status quo:

1. It doesn't solve, but certainly slows down the above mentioned problem of a shrinking number of niches. By expanding the factions, FFG can keep releasing ships and making money without ending up with multiple near-identical ships for every faction in later waves.

It wouldn't mean ending support for the original factions. Adding one new ship a year per faction would be very viable, and Aces type packs could also be released semi regularly to keep people interested, not to mention any new upgrades released for other factions. But by slowing things down, they delay the niche problem to the point where it will become relatively minor, and move from a medium to a long term problem.

2. Doing this would help keep movie ships on the tables. Star Wars is one of the most valuable brands in entertainment history. The very fact that this is a Star Wars game has probably meant it's audience is an order of magnitude larger than it might have been had it been based on a less well known or original IP. Keeping that Star Wars identity strong and visible to potential new players will certainly be part of FFGs marketing strategy for the game.

But consider: Ever since wave 4, and particularly since Scum and Villainy, the chances of games being played entirely without any movie ships has been growing, and will only keep growing if FFG are forced to dig deeper and deeper into more and more obscure EU sources. Imagine, for example, someone watching a game in a games store with a Brobots list vs a Decimator/Phantom list. Not unlikely, they're both very viable in the current meta after all. Or, in a few months time, a K-Wing/Z-95 list vs Bossk and some Khiraxzs? Would that person necessarily recognize that he was watching a Star Wars game, as opposed to just some space combat miniatures game?

If not, then that's a brand recognition problem that might slow down new player growth. On the other hand, stick an N1 on that table? Instant recognition; even if you don't like the prequel movies, you'd recognize it as a Star Wars setting. The more movie ships are available relative to EU ships, the lower the likelihood of games being played publicly without a visible link to the SW universe.

3. It opens up a new entry point for new players. Any competitive game that's been around a few years starts to develop higher and higher barriers for entry, primary around the number of expansions you need to buy to be competitive. This isn't so much of a problem for established players; those purchases are spread over years. Bit for new players who want to build a potent list, the initial outlays would be probably in excess of a couple of hundred bucks (in Australia anyway). That's a big barrier. But, if starting out with a new starter kit, FFG could use their experience to make sure that competitive lists could be built for the new factions with a relatively small number of purchases, lowering that barrier of entry, confident in the likelihood that once people start playing, they'll want to spend more over time.

Low entry barriers will be particularly important if Disney's new films are successful and Star Wars gets back into the mainstream of pop culture the way Marvel has: That's going to mean more games, more potential players, more potential forgone opportunity if they decide it's all just too difficult and choose not to get involved.

4. Diminishing returns on the EU. I stand by what I said at the start of this post - there are dozens of potential designs from the EU that FFG could use for future X Wing expansions. And a lot of them are really cool and deserve their place in X Wing - the Assault Gunboat, the CloakShape, the Skipray Blastboat. Some, like the Recon-X and the TIE Scout, might even help worth the niche problem. But sooner or later, the quality, recognizably and interest factor in those EU ships starts to wane, and you're left with the obscure little ships that some comic book writer invented in the 70s for a few frames which was never seen again. Even if the new movies generate a bunch of new ships (likely, but not guaranteed) from the OT era they're need to do so at a pretty astonishing rate to keep up with the demand FFG would have ( at two waves per year, 6-8 ships every year is a minimum). I know some people are virulently anti-prequel, but surely something like the Aethersprite or the ARC-170 belongs on the tables more than something like the TIE Raptor or the Manta Class? For me, it's no contest.

So, for those reasons, among others, I think that expanding the number of factions is not just commercially inevitable for FFG, but also beneficial for the game. I hope it goes ahead, personally. Any other thoughts?

Oh, and yes, I know it makes no narrative sense that, in this scenario, you could have Separatists vs First Order, or Republic vs Rebels. So what? It makes just as little sense to have Biggs and Porkins escort an E Wing against an Inperial squad of Mauler Mithel and a TIE Phantom, but it's perfectly legitimate within the game. Anyone who didn't want to mix eras wouldn't have to, and anyone who did, well, more fun for us. :)

Edited by MacchuWA

Great, detailed post. I'm assuming Episode 7 will have a plethora of new ships to use. Just in the trailer there are black TIEs, the "armored" black TIE, new X-wings, and an upgraded Falcon (the new radar dish). That's a wave's worth right there. With that and more Aces and Epic packs I am not at all concerned about the longevity of this game. I think it'd be neat to dip into Clone Wars ships, but I feel like that is controversial among the fandom, so maybe it is not a good idea.

Great, detailed post. I'm assuming Episode 7 will have a plethora of new ships to use. Just in the trailer there are black TIEs, the "armored" black TIE, new X-wings, and an upgraded Falcon (the new radar dish). That's a wave's worth right there. With that and more Aces and Epic packs I am not at all concerned about the longevity of this game. I think it'd be neat to dip into Clone Wars ships, but I feel like that is controversial among the fandom, so maybe it is not a good idea.

What if episode 7 sucks? :huh:

Jokes aside sure I can understand using other star wars cannon to find new ships. However I think the 3rd faction allows it to expand its model line for some time and with Armada I think Wave releases might slow down (or at least my bank account hopes they slow down). Still I don't think clone wars era or episode 7 would bring out new ships. To be honest have you seen a new starfighter in any of the Epesode 7 spoilers? All I saw were TIE Fighters, the millennium falcon and X-wings from 30 years ago. Oh it is the T-80 not the T-65 from 30 years ago. Well that is like saying it is the F/A-18C Superhornet not the F-18 hornet. Can you tell the difference (actually I can) but they are still both F-18 hornet.

Make more niches.

There is absolutely no reason why the game must be focused on 100 point 60 minutes 1vs1 matches.

The game is leaving behind it's baby years. After that it must grow.

Make 3 vs 3 epic tournaments official, with handsome rewards for the top and winner, and all of sudden many more ships are viable.

Let FFG put more focus on goals during matches, like capture targets, boarding, etc. Then all of sudden you open up a new niche of ships that is currently misrepresented: transports, disabling, hyperjumping. The would even work at the current 1:270 scale.

Personally, I was disappointed when they started releasing ships from the post-Rebellion era. There's such a treasure trove of suitable ships dating well back into the Old Republic, and it was well-accepted in pre-Disney canon that ships (even starfighters) could remain operational for a long, long time with proper storage & maintenance.

I think the Clone Wars would be a great era to mine for inspiration, but then I already have one of Mel's ARC-170s that I'll use as a K-Wing once that ship drops. Actis & Aethersprites, Vultures & Belbullabs... even LAATi gunships could make an appearance!

I really like your idea of creating more factions to prevent power creep in the existing factions, too.

I'm new to the game and frankly I was wondering what was going on with the lack of Prequel ships.

Don't get me wrong I'm all about that OT and I am LOVING my Interceptors and Defender and I cant wait to expand into other Imperial ships. But the prequels have a handful of truly good things and the ship designs are among them (at least for me.) it makes sense to utilize them for reasons the OP has presented.

As for "but it doesnt make time sense!" it's only been 37 years between "Yippee!" and Vader tossing Palpetine off a bridge. For a modern military analog the AK-47 saw its first official use in 1947 and today remains a very capable weapon. (I cant think of any good aircraft analogs but we are in a technology rennisance.

While neither the empire nor the rebels are taking advantage of them there's no reason why these ships wouldn't be around.

Rebels vs Republic? A loyalist faction, seeing the Rebels as usurpers, decides they are a bigger threat then the Emperor.

Droids vs Imperials? The Trade Federation finally figures out who set them up.

Imperials vs Republic; that loyalist faction has been sniffed out by the Empire.

Rebels vs Droids.... trade treaty or something.... :P

It may create major cannon issues but that's ignoring the #1 rule of gaming that's even above the rule of Wheaton.

#1: If the game is fun and the story is good then it is good.


Now hopefully this gets approved before the sun goes supernova.

Make more niches.

There is absolutely no reason why the game must be focused on 100 point 60 minutes 1vs1 matches.

The game is leaving behind it's baby years. After that it must grow.

Make 3 vs 3 epic tournaments official, with handsome rewards for the top and winner, and all of sudden many more ships are viable.

Let FFG put more focus on goals during matches, like capture targets, boarding, etc. Then all of sudden you open up a new niche of ships that is currently misrepresented: transports, disabling, hyperjumping. The would even work at the current 1:270 scale.

Also yes. (And hopefully this posts sometime before I die of old age. yaaaaaay for having a new account!)

The only problem with going backwards is that pretty much all of the ships would have to be inferior to what we have now.

It's just a bunch of sub-TIE Fighter, sub-Z-95 level ships.

Which I guess is fine. And you could still have a lot of interesting pilots.

I just wonder if A. FFG would stick with the lore and do that, potentially disappointing people when all the new ships start being rather weak, or B. They'll just completely change the stats around and make the old ships awesomer than they should be, like SWG did.

Long term, I feel like the only solution is increasing the number of factions, and doing so relatively soon. This would probably involve new starter packs, featuring, for example, an N1 Starfighter and two droid Starfighters (starting the "Republic" and "Separatists" factions)

This would require changing the era the game takes place in. And I definitely don't want to see that.

I don't mind seeing Clone Wars era ships getting added, but I want them appearing as the decades old relics that they would be in the Rebllion era.

Not cutting-edge Rebublic vessels going up against inexplicably equally cutting-edge Imperial vessels.

Edited by DarthEnderX

"How I learned to stop worrying and love the prequels."

Ah, no.

Edited by Radzap

Pretty sure (i'll try to find the source later, i'm going out now) i heard that they simply do not have a licence for the prequels. Certainly Alex Davy has said several times that there is zero chance they can do prequels.

If that is indeed the case, any advantages or disadvantages are pretty moot. It wont happen.

Nice write up, I like the Idea. As long as FFG does not make "Uglies" I am ok.

This is me being blunt

I came for the star wars (and the pretty space ships) but more importantly I stayed for the game

No prequel ships,it's called x-wing not lame derivative of pre existing ships.

No prequel ships,it's called x-wing not lame derivative of pre existing ships.

But...the Arc-170 is like an even Xier-Wing! That came out before...

So, for those reasons, among others, I think that expanding the number of factions is not just commercially inevitable for FFG, but also beneficial for the game. I hope it goes ahead, personally. Any other thoughts?
Oh, and yes, I know it makes no narrative sense that, in this scenario, you could have Separatists vs First Order, or Republic vs Rebels. So what?

No.

If they plan on massively breaking era they'll break it with 7. It's a closer fit.

The percentage of fans that like the prequels is small and easily outnumbered by those that hate them, introducing ships would anger far more people than it pleases.

an interceptor (A Wing/TIE Interceptor/M3A)

Wait, people consider the M3A to be an arc dodger? No that's not what I want to ask. People consider the M3A to exist?

I wouldn't care if we eventually got ships that had nearly the same or even the same specs if they were different ships. I would still buy and fly them..

The percentage of fans that like the prequels is small and easily outnumbered by those that hate them, introducing ships would anger far more people than it pleases.

I don't entirely agree with you on that one Hobo, I want to (I really REALLY hate the PT) but more space ships can only be a good thing.

The problem with the ships from the PT is they look and feel more advanced than the OT stuff, and that's due to the excessive about of CGI and Lucus only caring about making toys not consistency

I have the same fear that JJ won't be able to help himself either and all the ships from the new film will be just a mess of CGI and they won't fit

To the OP

I don't see any problem with walking into a room of, say, 20 tables of X-wing games and only seeing a few x-wings and a few Y-wings ties and a mix of non OT ships

The fact that not everyone is playing the same 5 or 6 ships IS a good thing.

It means the game is healthy and that's what new players want to see.

Anyone coming from 40K will tell you the worst thing to happen in a game is having everyone playing the same thing.

X-wing is great game, every model is competitive, some more than others true, but every model can find its way into a list and if played well (and the dice gods will it) win.

The percentage of fans that like the prequels is small and easily outnumbered by those that hate them, introducing ships would anger far more people than it pleases.

There were a lot of issues with the prequels. The only one regarding the ships was the horrible gold/chrome colour scheme of the N-1. Oh yeah, and shoehorning the hell of them into GCW era games around that time, of course.

I'd still like to see them, as much as i'd like to see a plethora of other craft in game. The XG-1 Assault gunboat, the Clone wars Era Y-wing, the ARC, V-19 Torrent, R-41 Starchaser, T-wing, Muurian transport (here's your scum large base turret right here) , DX-9 stormtrooper transport, Gamma and Delta class shuttles, CR-92 Imperial assassin class corvette, the BFF-1 bulk frieghter, the Action IV transport, Gozanti Transports, the Kimo or Krayt, The Dunelizard, TIE Aggressor, Avenger. All of these and more. Most can be justified, indeed we've had huge ass threads about justifying these. Niches can be shared based on preference, and I believe every starfighter viable should be covered.

This said, GCW era should be done first. the XG-1, R-41 and T-wing (imp, scum, rebel next save maybe FFG?) should come first, only then should we look at other things - such as the sequel era. Prequel ships, as much as I both love them and think they will be included (see the other thread . . .) should be niche release after the almost inevitable sequel era kits die down.

Lots of posts here, a few I wanted to unpack a little bit.

Make more niches.

There is absolutely no reason why the game must be focused on 100 point 60 minutes 1vs1 matches.

The game is leaving behind it's baby years. After that it must grow.

Make 3 vs 3 epic tournaments official, with handsome rewards for the top and winner, and all of sudden many more ships are viable.

Let FFG put more focus on goals during matches, like capture targets, boarding, etc. Then all of sudden you open up a new niche of ships that is currently misrepresented: transports, disabling, hyperjumping. The would even work at the current 1:270 scale.

Epic already doesn't really see much play, and I don't see that changing any time soon. Much bigger, more complex missions are fantastic ideas... in theory. In practice, a 3 vs 3 epic tournament would have rounds that last for hours, and you'd have a much, much harder time finding 5 other people to play with on any kind of regular basis. I honestly don't see 1 vs 1, 100 point games being superceded as the (by far) dominant way of playing the game for a long time to come, if ever.

That said, I don't doubt that there are other unexploited niches. One of my first posts on this board was about how cool the DX-9 stormtrooper transport and a boarding mechanic would be. But as much as I love the idea (again, in theory) of support ships, recon ships, transport and boarding ships, I'm forced to wonder, would they really have much point against, for example, a BBBBZ list? Or would they just be the HWK remade, with cool gimmicks, but not much real in game usefulness outside of much less common unusual gameplay types like you're discussing?

I'm not opposed to growing other segments of the game. I just don't think it's realistic that Epic or 3x3 is suddenly going to become massive and solve the niche issue, when evidence from the past couple of years just seems so strongly against that.

This would require changing the era the game takes place in. And I definitely don't want to see that.

And what era is that, exactly? Before Yavin, so Biggs and Porkins can be flying around? Or 10 years later, so E Wings can be flying around? The reality is that, aside from narrative campaigns, X Wing doesn't have a specific "era" in which it takes place. It's a non narrative game, so FFG can grab the best parts of any time period and say "They're fighting now" and it all works. Given the inherent timeline issues we've had since wave 2 (when A And B Wings were still Post-Yavin only), why would spreading the range from which they can grab be such a bad thing?

The only problem with going backwards is that pretty much all of the ships would have to be inferior to what we have now.

It's just a bunch of sub-TIE Fighter, sub-Z-95 level ships.

Which I guess is fine. And you could still have a lot of interesting pilots.

I just wonder if A. FFG would stick with the lore and do that, potentially disappointing people when all the new ships start being rather weak, or B. They'll just completely change the stats around and make the old ships awesomer than they should be, like SWG did.

They clearly view the lore as secondary to gameplay (as they quite righly should) otherwise the Defender would have had six attack dice, 4 defence dice and a couple of extra hull and shield points. If the Republic and Separatists were added as new factions, the ships would be comparable to the Rebellion era ones. The whole point of a new faction is that they'd have a new playstyle, much like Scum does, not that they'd be inherently weaker (even if that did kind of make sense in the lore). Also, remember that the Y Wing and Z-95 were around in the Clone Wars, and they have comparable stats to pure rebellion era craft.

Besides, 20 years is nothing in the timeframe of SW technologies. They're essentially static, tech wise, so the improvements are probably marginal from generation to generation. And even if they weren't, say the X Wing has 10% more firepower than the ARC 170: that's still going to round up to 3 red dice. The main difference would be that the ARC has a 3 man crew - which means crew upgrade slots. That'd be kind of cool, no?

Pretty sure (i'll try to find the source later, i'm going out now) i heard that they simply do not have a licence for the prequels. Certainly Alex Davy has said several times that there is zero chance they can do prequels.

If that is indeed the case, any advantages or disadvantages are pretty moot. It wont happen.

If they have the license for Star Wars, they have the license for the prequels. And I'm fairly sure that the CEO mentions it in the video linked in the thead below.

More generally we're looking at the sort of game as it is, the Galactic Civil War going way forward...

From CEO Christian Peterson: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/114870-no-prequel-ships-settled/

Yep, I've seen that video, and read the thread, and what he says is a long way from the unambiguous denial that some people want it to be. It's an addendum to an answer to a question specifically about the Clone Wars TV show, and he seems more concerned about the art style than anything else.

That said, yeah, it does make it clear that, at that time, he wasn't keen on the idea of introducing ships from other eras. I honestly think that will change. The new movies will represent too good a marketing opportunity, and once those are in, not bringing in the prequels will just be odd, especially when they look to confront the challenges I was discussing in my first post.

I'm not saying that all these chanegs are inevitable. I am saying that they'd be positive, for both the game and for FFG's management of it.

The percentage of fans that like the prequels is small and easily outnumbered by those that hate them, introducing ships would anger far more people than it pleases.

You say that, but based on what? Do you have market research numbers? Hard data? Or are you just assuming what you think is what everybodymust think? The reality is that these sorts of games are primarily marketed at that oh-so-important male 18-35 demographic, i.e. people born from 1980 - 1993. Remember that The Phantom Menace came out in 1999. A large and growing part of that demographic grew up with the prequels being far, far more prominent in their childhoods than the original trilogy. That's not a fact that FFG can or will ignore forever.

I don't see any problem with walking into a room of, say, 20 tables of X-wing games and only seeing a few x-wings and a few Y-wings ties and a mix of non OT ships

As a player, I agree with you. If I were the head of FFG's marketing department, I don't think I Would. The SW brand is the most important aspect of this game to those guys. It has to be kept strong, and I can't believe that it wouldn't be figuring into their decisions about how to grow the game, especially if they're thinking long term (as in, Warhammer long term, and selling the game for years, even decades).

Edited by MacchuWA

The percentage of fans that like the prequels is small and easily outnumbered by those that hate them, introducing ships would anger far more people than it pleases.

You say that, but based on what? Do you have market research numbers? Hard data? Or are you just assuming what you think is what everybodymust think? The reality is that these sorts of games are primarily marketed at that oh-so-important male 18-35 demographic, i.e. people born from 1980 - 1993. Remember that The Phantom Menace came out in 1999. A large and growing part of that demographic grew up with the prequels being far, far more prominent in their childhoods than the original trilogy. That's not a fact that FFG can or will ignore forever.

Have you not been on the internet for the past 15 years? Someone born in the 80s grew up with the OT. Not the PT. I was 13 win TPM came out and even my preteen mind thought it was a silly kids movie. My cousins loved it but they were from 5 to 8 years old.

Edited by Jo Jo