K-turn while sitting on a debris cloud

By TheRealStarkiller, in X-Wing

This one seems clear cut, opponent was in error - treat as pilot stress.

If you opt to redo, he can place his dial to an optimized point knowing potentially what you've done. - not right.

If you opt to allow it, he just ignored a fundamental rule, where do-overs aren't appropriate. - not right.

If you opt to have a 5 page discussion on the straw man logical fallacy based on this... well don't do that.

It was opponent action that caused the stress, were it your TACO(also the name of my cat) My wife (mara jade - when angry causes stress to all around her), a stress bot, or any action of your own that causes the stress, I could see argument for a missed opportunity provided that you yourself missed the action to give stress.

If I were TO'ing -Both players probably missed it, if it happened.

I'd look at the lists, if he's moving his own ships, and the opponent hasn't moved yet (having higher pilot skill) I'd say, assign the stress and re-do the dial.

If the opponent has Academy pilots, that have already moved - I'd let him go ahead and make the move - then add the extra stress (effectively ending with 2 stress), and give a warning, a kind of compromise.

If it's the second time for that same player - I'll rule it as stressed, and opponent sets the dial.

If I were TO'ing -Both players probably missed it, if it happened.

I'd look at the lists, if he's moving his own ships, and the opponent hasn't moved yet (having higher pilot skill) I'd say, assign the stress and re-do the dial.

If the opponent has Academy pilots, that have already moved - I'd let him go ahead and make the move - then add the extra stress (effectively ending with 2 stress), and give a warning, a kind of compromise.

If it's the second time for that same player - I'll rule it as stressed, and opponent sets the dial.

For the book, I had Krassis + Mangler and 5 Academies. It was a very dense field.

An if he could do his k-turn at this point, he would have his B-Wing behind 2 of my Academies in range 1.

I knew that he could not do a k-turn at this point, because he was sitting on debris.

Now tell me again what your decision as TO would have been.

If I were TO'ing -Both players probably missed it, if it happened.

I'd look at the lists, if he's moving his own ships, and the opponent hasn't moved yet (having higher pilot skill) I'd say, assign the stress and re-do the dial.

If the opponent has Academy pilots, that have already moved - I'd let him go ahead and make the move - then add the extra stress (effectively ending with 2 stress), and give a warning, a kind of compromise.

If it's the second time for that same player - I'll rule it as stressed, and opponent sets the dial.

For the book, I had Krassis + Mangler and 5 Academies. It was a very dense field.

An if he could do his k-turn at this point, he would have his B-Wing behind 2 of my Academies in range 1.

I knew that he could not do a k-turn at this point, because he was sitting on debris.

Now tell me again what your decision as TO would have been.

For a Casual, or Competative* level tournament , the same , for a premier event, I'd go with full strictness - giving the stress and enforcing the revealed dial and consequences.

You said you knew he couldn't K-turn because he was on the debris - BUT if you knew he was on the debris, you should've known if he had a stress token. Given that there are abilities like Keyan or Wingman (granted he may not have had them) to remove stress, you should've checked for a stress token. If you knew he had a stress but didn't see the stress token, why didn't you say something during the planning phase (or earlier), such as "Hey look - you're missing a stress token."

It's not as important that he's on the debris field as it is that there is no stress token. If you knew he didn't have the token and you didn't say anything - then it would appear that you deliberately didn't say anything in hopes that he'd do a red maneuver - so that you could bring up the missing token and force his dial - and that seems to be exactly what the spirit of "Players are expected to act with respect and not intentionally distract or rush an opponent with the intent of forcing a missed opportunity" is trying to prevent." I'd like to assume that your opponent isn't trying to cheat you, and that you're not trying to force the dial choice - and that's why I'd compromise it the way I did - with a warning - as if it happens again, I'd be more inclined to think the player is deliberately forgetting to place stress tokens....

Now, what supports my decision to make the compromise? It's Not strictly a missed opportunity, but game state effects should be enforced by both players - the crux of this issue involves a timing issue with game state. The planning phase has occurred, and it was missed in that phase by your opponent. If you missed it here as well, then the game state has come to an irreversible point (where information has been revealed, and changes to the dial are likely very beneficial to whoever makes the change) - and I'd like to interpret the spirit of "If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his opponent" - applies. Simultaneously we know that as a state based effect, It must occur. This is why I'd make the ruling allowing the maneuver - (It was legal without the stress token, that both of you had forgotten at the time , but we still NEED to place the stress.) IF it's the first ship moving we're still close enough to the planning phase, that we aren't at an irreversible point yet.

Furthermore - The rules page 11 state "If a ship already has a stress token assigned to it, and it reveals a red maneuver .... The ship didn't have a stress token assigned to it, and it revealed the red maneuver - This timing has also passed. It should've had one, yes, but it didn't - so the trigger for this state based effect was also "missed" - we need the consent of the opponent! So executing the maneuver - and then giving the missing stress token, + any gained by the maneuver and possible overlap of the debris again - means 2 or 3 stress on the b-wing, a penalty for sure, but it gives the benefit of the doubt, and neither side get's what they really want (Side A wanting to choose the maneuver, Side B wanting to ignore the stress altogether)

Other TO's may rule it differently - and I'd respect their ruling - even if I didn't agree with their reasoning/logic.

*"While experienced players will come to these events to compete for prizes, players should not be punished for their lack of understanding in the finer points of Star Wars : X-Wing™ Miniatures Game rules" ... In the current state of the game, Debris fields are new - so it possibly counts as a finer point - though in the future, i'd expect this point to be more well understood - and switch to the harsher ruling for competitive level play.

edited for formatting

Edited by Ravncat

When the B-Wing was moved onto the debris cloud, what did both of you do and say?

This is completely different to the "Rebel Captive" situation.

Casual rules with a disputed game effect being missed. Either way, one player will not be satisfied with the outcome.

The TO should make a ruling. Dice do not make consistent, reasoned rulings.

Indeed. Dice Roll-offs are for when there is no appointed third party. Not for lazy TOs.

When the B-Wing was moved onto the debris cloud, what did both of you do and say?

My 5 Ties were hitting on his 4 B-Wings on a very tight spot between debris and astroids. Im sure he actually placed a stress marker and he rolled for damage. but it was maybe accidently removed or it ended up under a base of a different model. It was hot, the air was bad, the pressure of the short 60 min rounds fell on both of us - so it can happen that a token disappears - but: at this point it was absolutely unrealistic that this B-Wing wasn't stressed, even without the token. And thats what I said: "There is no way that this B-Wing isn't stressed." and he said: "Missed opportunity, there is no stress token next to him" ...

I mean, if you let this go like ... yes fly casual, do your k-turn ... you may open up new ways to cheat.

But I have no intention to say that my opponent wanted to cheat at this point. I know him pretty well; he usually is a very accurate player. He would never cheat me. In fact, he is one of the players I really enjoy to play against.

The missed opportunity is putting the token down. The B-Wing is stressed regardless, and both players are obligated to fix the gamestate as best they can (putting a token down when the mistake is discovered). Whether or not there is a token to remind you, the stress is there. Similarly, if my opponent took a focus action, and stated as much, but during the course of the turn it was inadvertently moved/removed/not placed, we put the token on as soon as we realize the mistake. I am super easy on things like this, mistakes happen and I'm not interested in gamey advantages.

On the other hand, mandatory effects are mandatory. Sorry you forgot your token, but your ship is still stressed. Personally, and assuming he didn't try to give me the "missed opportunity" line, I would probably let him pick another maneuver. If he tried to pull that line on me, I would pick his dial for him. If the store backed up this particular brand of bs, I would do my level best to identify him, the TO, and the store as cheaters and see if we could prevent them from ever having an official event ever again.

I cannot abide a cheat.

Edited by KineticOperator