You are on a (low level) tournament.

Mid-game, your opponent reveals a K-turn of a ship that actually sits on a debris cloud. It was a B-Wing, for reference.

It had no stress token so far, either it was accidently removed or it has never been assigned.

Your opponent demands that this was a 'missed opportunity' because was no stress token next to the ship.

What would you do next?

A) You demand that this just is obviously not possible, pick the dial and choose a new manouver for your opponent.

B) Showing humility by letting him act because it was a missed opportunity.

This is exactly the same discussion as the "rebel captive shenanigans" thread. I suggest you look there.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/181556-rebel-captive-shenannigans/?view=getnewpost

It's not a missed opportunity; you are required to take a stress. It is not optional and cheating to try to avoid taking it. I'd call TO and let them decide. I would personnally treat it as a red with a stress and all that comes with it. To argue otherwise is to endorse cheating IMO.

I would say that the stress needs to be realized. If he was supposed to have a stress and you both missed it it's not a missed opportunity, he gets stressed for his being in debris. Now, I think flying casual is the way to go. If u have already moved then I would say decide a manoeuvre u both agree on. If you haven't moved yet let him redo his dial. It's about playing a game and having fun, it's not about screwing a guy over a missed token.

I think it's different from even a rebel captive event since there is not a trigger anywhere, it's just a thing that happens. It's like not taking stress from a k-turn. Missing opportunities even on mandatory things is something I support, but only if it's actually an opportunity that is missable.

Put the stress on the ship, then let him redo the dial

It's not regionals, nationals, or worlds

As my old DI said "you want to follow the rules but sometimes its better to be a stand-up troop instead of bleepity bleep 2nd lieutenant"

It doesn't say may, that token must be assigned. Furthermore, it's his ship: it's his place to remember to assign the token, and it's not on you if he fals to.

It's akin to not taking the ion token from Leebo and then trying to call missed opportunity, not taking stress from PTL and then calling missed opportunity. It's not sloppy play from you, it's cheating from him.

As other have said, this is not a "missed opportunity" situation, the stress is an automatic, unavoidable part of the debris field rules, and it's up to the owner of the ship that overlapped the debris token to assign it. If there's any form of missed opportunity here, it was the B-wing pilot's forgot to add the stress token that would've reminded him/her not to select a red maneuver as their next move. Trying to shift the blame on to their opponent is an attempt to cheat.

It would be possible if the B-Wing were Farlander, move into the debris field, take your stress and then during combat fire and remove the stress. then the next turn if the movement gauge did not contact the debris field as he leaves then he could do the k-Turn. We just say B-Wing in the question, any other could not. As far as a missed opportunity, I don't think it qualifies, there is no choice it is something that is mandatory. If discovered by either side the stress must be applied. Then movement applied not redone. The opposing player then can change the dial as in the rules. If discovered at a later turn it would probably be up to the to determine how to handle it and determine any penalties. Depending the game situation one might have to replay the turn, or let the movement stand and disallow any damage done by the offending player. It depends on the game situation.

If you opponent is so wrapped up on things that he refuses to correct it, just let it go. If it were a higher level tournement, you old use the TO as the judge, and you should. In my experience, the casual tournements, the TO knows everyone and is usually doing the TO duties for the benefit of everyone else, and there is no point in putting him in an uncomfortable position.

Just how I would play it.

If you opponent is so wrapped up on things that he refuses to correct it, just let it go. If it were a higher level tournement, you old use the TO as the judge, and you should. In my experience, the casual tournements, the TO knows everyone and is usually doing the TO duties for the benefit of everyone else, and there is no point in putting him in an uncomfortable position.

Just how I would play it.

If an opponent is so warped up he refuses to play by the rules then pick up your pieces and tell your former opponent to play someone else! Cheating is not flying casual and I am a big proponent of flying casual remind opponents of missed opportunities and so forth. But missed opportunities come with the word may in X-wing and it is quite clear. Not saying that it is not possible to be on top of a debris cloud and either lose or don't take a stress token (ever heard of super dash?). But seriously a player that plays like that is not worth playing.

If it was a competitive setting then go ahead and get the TO involved. After the TO rules for you to set the dial, throw his ship off the board (with the dial, not literally throwing his ship) for causing so much trouble. No doubt this type of person would gladly exploit any rules to do the same as he is not interested in playing a game but only winning.

those are not focus tokens, those are negatives of his own ships, he is supposed to track those, not you. poor sportsmanship on his part to you. and see, how you have a sour experience.

If it were Farlander in this situation, he could have used the stress token during combat (actually should have used it during combat), so it is possible for a B-Wing to be in a debris cloud and not have stress. Off of the top of my head I can't think of a rebel that can take stress (ala Yorr) from another ship but if there is that would be another explanation. Then the B-wing, with no stress on it, could reveal a k-turn and complete it legally. The stress from the debris cloud happens after the check pilot stress step. When all was said and done it would have 2 stress tokens on it.

I was under the impression that FFG stated somewhere that mandatory acts (like taking stress in this situation) does not fall under the 'missed opportunity' umbrella.

I'm with the those that realize "fly casual" does not equal "let your opponent cheat you".

As for what I would do in this situation. I would politely take his dial and set a legal move that sends him towards a rock or off of the table per the rules of the game. Consequences....That's the only way we learn!

It was a Blue. And I demanded that it has to have stress, no matter what happened to the stress token at this point, since it was not Farlander. So I picked a different manouver for him. And yes, I won that game.

It depends on how the game was going. I know the whole official tournament rules but if this is the only issue, I'll let it play. Besides. If he's on the debris field, he'll have to add a stress to get off and will end up double stressed.bso it's case by specific case.

That's the perfect situation to call a TO over, no matter what level of tournament it is. If the players disagree the TO will make a call and you both have to live with it. No need to even argue your case to the other player... just politely say, "I don't think it works that way. Let's get a quick ruling." In this case, the TO would be right to say assign the stress and play from there. If he/she rules against you, well, the game still moves forward and you can address it with the TO at another time. They are volunteers, after all, and not always experts of the game.

Congrats on the win!

Technically, the TO simultaneously did the correct and incorrect thing.

The rules clearly state that missed opportunities applies to all game effects. See my post on the Rebel Captive thread:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/181556-rebel-captive-shenannigans/page-4#entry1681649

However, the TO is also given the power to override the FAQ and he did so in choosing to have players roll for it.

I don't know why people keep thinking that forced game effects are any different. It clearly states game effects without clarifying, thus covering ALL game effects the same.

Yeah, I'm calling BS on him. You know your ship is supposed to be stressed (barring Wingman or similar talents in your squad) if it's sitting on a debris cloud, unless you're very new to the game.

If they were very new to the game and had no idea how debris clouds worked, I'd be very forgiving about it all (unless it was in a higher competitive environment). Sounds like he took notice that you didn't notice the lack of a stress token and is trying to take advantage of it. If y'all had both just legitimately missed something, that's one thing. But this... yeah. No.

Not applying stress tokens at the appropriate time is fairly common. They can be easy to miss when you are going through the course of the different things that happen during the maneuver phase, attack phase, end phase, etc.

When you realize the error you fix it to the best of your ability to restore the appropriate game state.

If you are the individual that forgot to give yourself a token then later claim it a missed opportunity and make the case that you shouldn't be required to fix the error you are blatantly trying to cheat.

Technically, the TO simultaneously did the correct and incorrect thing.

The rules clearly state that missed opportunities applies to all game effects. See my post on the Rebel Captive thread:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/181556-rebel-captive-shenannigans/page-4#entry1681649

However, the TO is also given the power to override the FAQ and he did so in choosing to have players roll for it.

I don't know why people keep thinking that forced game effects are any different. It clearly states game effects without clarifying, thus covering ALL game effects the same.

I don't think missed opportunities clearly apply to everything. That's way too broad of an interpretation. It actually uses the language "action" and "card effects" and not "game effects." It also places the responsibility, or fault, on one player in the description (since a player requires his opponent's permission to fix the mistake). In this case, neither player has sole ownership of the rule involved as it isn't a card within a hand or list.

I'm not saying it couldn't have been resolved better, especially since one player gained an advantage by ignoring it and the OP gained an advantage by revealing it when and resolving it as he did, but I don't think the missed opportunity rule should be applied in cases like this.

Missed Opportunities

Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions

and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his opponent. Players are expected to act with respect and not intentionally distract or rush an opponent with the intent of forcing a missed opportunity.

This one to me is a bit different from the Rebel Captive thread. This one has no lists or card effects and triggers to remember that vary. You both neglected not getting a stress token placed. There was ample time to add it from the last time it was activated. SO for me it would be a fly casual moment. But I would keep a better eye on my opponent the rest of the match. Innocent mistakes happen, cheaters need to burn.

The use of the phrase "game effect" doesn't qualify whether it is from a card, rules, or FAQ. Taking a stress from debris is a game effect defined by the rules of debris.

While I understand everyone ia trying to apply intent to the rule, it's simply not covered by the Missed Opportunities section what type of game effect it covers (by Rules As Written).

The Missed Opportunities section doesn't state that the rule only applies to card effects. If that were the case, then a missed focus action isn't really a focus action because it is not defined by cards but the core rules.

The use of the phrase "game effect" doesn't qualify whether it is from a card, rules, or FAQ. Taking a stress from debris is a game effect defined by the rules of debris.

While I understand everyone ia trying to apply intent to the rule, it's simply not covered by the Missed Opportunities section what type of game effect it covers (by Rules As Written).

The Missed Opportunities section doesn't state that the rule only applies to card effects. If that were the case, then a missed focus action isn't really a focus action because it is not defined by cards but the core rules.

So, the problem is that in this case, it becomes the responsibility of the person who benefits to be responsible for general game rules. In the example above it means that there's no reason for the B-wing player to "remember" to place the stress. Heck, the same is true of a K-turn, or any negative effect. That's not a style of play I think anyone should support or use that piece of single language to uphold.

If it was obvious then yes. He should have placed a stress for sure. I would do on myself for sure.

However, if he was flying Keyan, and had a wing man. He could K-turn on the cloud, which I have done many times to chase down dash. I use my wingman to clear the stress and my ability when I shoot to clear the second stress. Hence, I would get another stress at the end of my next move, but I could K-turn again, since during activation I don't have any stress and the stress is placed at the end of my move, so I would K-turn again and have two stress.

This is completely different to the "Rebel Captive" situation.

Casual rules with a disputed game effect being missed. Either way, one player will not be satisfied with the outcome.

The TO should make a ruling. Dice do not make consistent, reasoned rulings.