Well...I figure Anakin and ObiWan were in the 1000XP+ range. Maybe even 1500XP. Could even be as high as 2k.

As usual, you're grossly overestimating what Anakin and Obi-Wan can do.

You could probably build a fully capable Anakin and Obi-Wan circa RotS and based upon what we see them do in the films on far less XP.

They DON"T need huge amounts of ranks in LIghtsaber to take on Dooku, nor do they need Force Ratings through the roof to be able to reliably use Enhance or Move or even Sense. They're also benefiting from the actual Jedi training program, something that Force and Destiny PCs by design don't.

Re-reading some of your posts, it looks like your main gripe with Force and Destiny is that it was built and written around the Rebellion Era, where Force uses are scarce and actual Jedi rarer than an honest Hutt businessman, instead of it being based around an era where the Jedi Order was in full bloom.

And frankly, in that regard you're no different in ErikB, being entirely too focused on what this game isn't instead of what it is. ErikB wanted Jedi characters to be superhumans on par with how WH40K fluff treats the Space Marines right out of the gate, much like you do. Rightfully so, the design team rejected that idea as complete and utter bollocks and instead made an RPG where the option exists to allow a pretty seamless blending of the three product lines allowing players the choice of being a Force user or being a muggle, and neither being excessively screwed over in the process.

Maybe the Johnny-come-latelys like you don't care of the mundane PCs get left in the dirt, but those of us that have been part of the fanbase for this RPG would prefer to have the option that have a group that includes a mixture of smugglers and fringers (EotE), revolutionary leaders and soldiers (AoR), and mystics and aspiring Jedi (FaD) instead of having to exclusively pick one or the other. With how FFG handled things, the one guy that wants to play a would-be Jedi can do so and not quickly outshadow the party (a common criticism of the d20 Saga Edition game) after the first couple adventures, nor is that same PC lagging far behind the rest of the group in terms of basic competency (how WEG handled Force users by forcing them to sacrifice starting characteristic points to get what amounts to 1 Force die that could only be used for a specific subset of Force powers). So one less skill point to start with and a few less career skills is a pretty easy trade-off for not having to pay additional XP to start with Force Rating 1.

But if you want the Jedi types to start out as Justice League calibur superheroes in contrast to everyone else being street-level vigilantes, then you've got the wrong RPG, and you're probably better off finding some other game system to get your Star Wars fix.

Well...I figure Anakin and ObiWan were in the 1000XP+ range. Maybe even 1500XP. Could even be as high as 2k.

Show me anything in canon that requires such a stratospheric level of XP. They can reliably do everything we see in the films and TCW with far less.

I think even Saga Edition had Anakin and Obi-wan at like level 14 or something. Only Palpatine and Yoda were max level in the core book, if I recall.

Well...I figure Anakin and ObiWan were in the 1000XP+ range. Maybe even 1500XP. Could even be as high as 2k.

Show me anything in canon that requires such a stratospheric level of XP. They can reliably do everything we see in the films and TCW with far less.

Variety is expensive. Anakin isn't just a jedi, he's a mechanic, a pilot, and several other things. For example.

There is also nothing wrong believing that Jedi and Wizards are legends and should have more xp or levels or spells than others. It's just how you interpret the story

There is in a game where there are people playing non-Force users which is what was suggested in this thread.

It works great and no one has ever complained because my non force users get access to ships earlier on and social connections earlier on such as a droid or npc.

I really just don't like the idea that both ways of running this game can't exist and both can't work. Yes in a group where players are power gamers my system wouldn't work because those power gamers would be asked to leave the game not becausey system doesn't work.

Well...I figure Anakin and ObiWan were in the 1000XP+ range. Maybe even 1500XP. Could even be as high as 2k.

Show me anything in canon that requires such a stratospheric level of XP. They can reliably do everything we see in the films and TCW with far less.

Variety is expensive. Anakin isn't just a jedi, he's a mechanic, a pilot, and several other things. For example.

Agree and hence why I give more xp but restrict where players can spend it forcing them to have diverse characters

Well...I figure Anakin and ObiWan were in the 1000XP+ range. Maybe even 1500XP. Could even be as high as 2k.

Dear god, not even close. Not unless you are the most powergamery power gamer ever. I could easily build a screen accurate Kenobi with half of that and give you change back.

Variety is expensive. Anakin isn't just a jedi, he's a mechanic, a pilot, and several other things. For example.

Anakin is not a valid example of a character. He's the chosen one, a deus ex machina, a plot device. Holding him up as an average character is lunacy.

Well...I figure Anakin and ObiWan were in the 1000XP+ range. Maybe even 1500XP. Could even be as high as 2k.

Dear god, not even close. Not unless you are the most powergamery power gamer ever. I could easily build a screen accurate Kenobi with half of that and give you change back.

Variety is expensive. Anakin isn't just a jedi, he's a mechanic, a pilot, and several other things. For example.

Anakin is not a valid example of a character. He's the chosen one, a deus ex machina, a plot device. Holding him up as an average character is lunacy.

Obi Wan is also a talented negotiator, decent Pilot (but no Anakin), a Strategist, versed in Lore, and a few other things. Does your build take all that into account?

Anakin and Obi Wan...and even Luke, for that matter...are so much more then simply their F&D Talent trees. They're...eegads, fully developed characters with a wide variety of talents.

But a Fully Developed Character is expensive.

Well...I figure Anakin and ObiWan were in the 1000XP+ range. Maybe even 1500XP. Could even be as high as 2k.

Show me anything in canon that requires such a stratospheric level of XP. They can reliably do everything we see in the films and TCW with far less.

Variety is expensive. Anakin isn't just a jedi, he's a mechanic, a pilot, and several other things. For example.

Okay, assume that I have seen all the movies, every episode of TCW and all so-far aired episodes of Rebels... because I have. Telling me that Anakin is also a gifted mechanic and ace pilot is not telling me anything I don't already know. I am also familiar with the rules and I can build all this for way less than the XP costs you are throwing around. Be specific - tell me anything in canon that requires such a stratospheric level of XP. You could fully max out both Mechanic AND Pilot specializations for 600XP. And that's a pretty amazing level of Mechanical and Piloting skill. Anakin might be good with droids but do we see anything in canon that would require him to be a maxed out Mechanic? Besides, we're drifting away from the Force rules here. My contention was that you don't need such high Force figures as the ones you were giving out to accomplish anything seen in canon.

Anyway, you gave 1,000XP as your minimum and we're still very far from that even if we give Anakin far more mechanical skill than was ever shown in the canon media.

EDIT: Actually, I feel I've allowed myself to be drawn into accepting a false premise. You can do anything we see Anakin do mechanically with a few Mechanics skill points and throw in a 100XP of talents from the Mechanic tree for the sake of the fluff that people talk about him more so than much we actually see him do.

Obi Wan is also a talented negotiator, decent Pilot (but no Anakin), a Strategist, versed in Lore, and a few other things. Does your build take all that into account?

Ranks in Negotiation, Piloting (Planetary), Piloting (Space), Knowledge (Warfare), Knowledge (Lore). Done. Next?

This is the same issue we have seen before. Someone thinks every little thing done by a character needs to be accounted for in some mechanic, whether it be skills, talents or Force powers. Much of what characters do can be accounted for without going whole hog.

Alright...

In the interest of not clogging the thread...why don't you build an Obi Wan and PM him to me. Then I'll build one and send him to you. Perhaps a consensus can be reached.

Obi Wan is also a talented negotiator, decent Pilot (but no Anakin), a Strategist, versed in Lore, and a few other things. Does your build take all that into account?

Absolutely.

Buying up the skills will run about 100-150 points above and beyond starting - including buying the saber skill all the way up to 5 and picking up a handful of out-of-career skills like the two piloting, warfare, lore and negotiation. Two trees - Shadow and Shien Expert will run 620 point (assuming you buy the ENTIRE tree, which you probably don't need to do). All we need to buy for Force, per my breakdown from the other day, is Enhance, Influence and Move. If you buy every upgrade (which again, you probably don't need to do), it'll cost 350 points.

So being extremely generous, Kenobi will run about 1,170-ish points. Tops.

First of all, why the Shien Tree?

If I'm going to give Obi Wan a maxed saber tree, it's **** well going to be Soresu. (And then I'd throw in half of Shii Cho and Ataru, which are the backup forms Obi Wan synergizes in. The first he learned as a youngling, the 2nd from Qui Gon)

I think it's being forgotten that on screen it is necessary for characters to regularly roll well, but the Triumph and Despair mechanics explain a hell of a lot of the plot twists that happened in the movies, and all that's needed to get those is ranks in a skill combined with a basic ability of 2 or 3. Combine these two things and a Movie Lead Character can do a lot of amazing things (or escape a dead end only to find themselves in a garbage compactor that's occupied and compacting)

One things for sure, we don't see many of the failed rolls on screen because that's boring, unless that failure is what progresses the plot.

Why Sentinel? Look at all the time he's sneaking around places. He's evesdropping on Dooku, he's slipping in on Grevious - the guy's sneaky. Those two trees support him being stealthy and sneaky and evesdroppy.

Why do you need to buy more than one saber tree? By the time you get to the bottom of the one, there's more than enough parry and whatnot to represent what we see on screen. Dont get hung up on the names. Don't go "Well, Wookiepedia says he has this form and that form and this other form and mastery of that style". That way lies madness (and powergaming).

Well, the 'Wookiepedia build' is essentially what I'm recommending when I say these characters might have 2000 XP.

I'm reading carefully what the websites say they have, and then converting it to numbers in a gaming system, as faithfully as I can.

Hence, I'd never give Obi Wan Shien over Soresu, for example.

Well...I figure Anakin and ObiWan were in the 1000XP+ range. Maybe even 1500XP. Could even be as high as 2k.

Dear god, not even close. Not unless you are the most powergamery power gamer ever. I could easily build a screen accurate Kenobi with half of that and give you change back.

Variety is expensive. Anakin isn't just a jedi, he's a mechanic, a pilot, and several other things. For example.

Anakin is not a valid example of a character. He's the chosen one, a deus ex machina, a plot device. Holding him up as an average character is lunacy.

Obi Wan is also a talented negotiator, decent Pilot (but no Anakin), a Strategist, versed in Lore, and a few other things. Does your build take all that into account?

Anakin and Obi Wan...and even Luke, for that matter...are so much more then simply their F&D Talent trees. They're...eegads, fully developed characters with a wide variety of talents.

But a Fully Developed Character is expensive.

Yes, but there's a difference between proficiency, and specializations.

Obi-wan is a talented Negotiator... but does that mean he needs Colonist:Politico? Or just a rank or two in Negotiate?

He's a decent Pilot....but does he need Ace:Pilot? Or just some ranks in Piloting(Space)?

A strategist... but Commander:Tactician? Or Just a rank or two in Knowledge: Warfare, or even simple Leadership?

Versed in Lore... almost states outright he's got a rank or two.

A build can take a lot into account fairly easily if you're willing to reign yourself in and allow it. If you understand the game mechanics well enough to see them at work in the films. In some cases a rank or two may not even be needed. Base ability is able to generate success, so you almost need multiple examples of Triumph to prove skill ranks in some cases.

This was something I encountered when converting the Darkstryder campaign. Several of those characters had odd builds. Characters that were supposed to be gunners, or pilots, or whatever, but their actual numbers and bios didn't support the specialization. So what did I do? I applied the Spec that did fit, and just made sure the build had skill ranks to match the job description. And it worked, pretty darn well.

Anakin even with his "OMG CHOZEN WON" status can probably be made playable at the exact same XP level as a playable Obi-wan. No house rules even needed, the player just uses Destiny Points like a mad man to show Anakin's supposedly superior connection to the force.

"But Ghost, Obi-wan is Anakin's master!"

Yeah, so? Yoda never says that being a master to an apprentice has a requisite XP level, or Force Rating. The master-appentice relationship is one of character play, not of mechanics. The two characters can be made at the same XP level and still have that relationship if that's how the GM and Players run with it.

And I've got to get ready for my next play session, but when I find time I'll make your high XP Padme and turn Anakin back to the light. I've already got several ideas in mind...

First of all, why the Shien Tree?

If I'm going to give Obi Wan a maxed saber tree, it's **** well going to be Soresu. (And then I'd throw in half of Shii Cho and Ataru, which are the backup forms Obi Wan synergizes in. The first he learned as a youngling, the 2nd from Qui Gon)

Well, the 'Wookiepedia build' is essentially what I'm recommending when I say these characters might have 2000 XP.

I'm reading carefully what the websites say they have, and then converting it to numbers in a gaming system, as faithfully as I can.

Hence, I'd never give Obi Wan Shien over Soresu, for example.

And that... is why you fail...

Wookieepedia isn't a safe source for generation of game content. The editors over there fanboy out at the drop of a hat. Seriously, read something like the entry for the DC-15 blaster rifle. Wow, that's amazing. If you "faithfully" stat that thing out, you end up with something that begs "Why would anyone ever get a different model blaster ever again?"

When you stat something out you have to be critical, you have to ask "why does this need that?" you have to as"Do I really truely need this talent tree to show proficiency in a lightsaber style, or is that tree just there as one player option of many?" You have to see the mechanical function of things, and recognize things like a saber specialization tree not being the same as knowing a saber form.

If you can't do that, yeah, you'll always need millions of XP for everything and every item, vehicle, and article of clothing will always have a special rule of it's very own.

Sounds good. I figure a Padme that was still part of the plot (and was actually a PC) would pull something like that off.

We already know love is enough to bring Anakin back out of Vader. Luke didn't succeed because he was a Jedi, he succeeded because he was Vader's son. Theoretically, his wife should be able to do the same trick. No Force required.

Although, here I want to say that if Soresu doesn't represent Obi Wan well, the devs may not have built Soresu well. If players building him don't immediately jump to Soresu as his default form, something's going wrong.

Likewise, Shien should represent Anakin (And Luke!) well, Ataru should be able to support Qui Gon, Makashi should be the form of choice for a Dooku build, and so on.

Ghosty pretty well covered everything I was thinking (but far more articulate). There's one thing I'd like to point out that you're overlooking: the story component. This engine is story driven, not game mechanics driven. At the very core of the character, what does Kenobi do? He's a great swordsman, and he's pretty good at infiltrating places. So buy him all the way up to the top of the Sneaky Trees and when it comes up that Kenobi is a master of Way of the North Star Fist, you use the mechanics to color the story.

You've bought all of the saber tree plus the Signature Ability (whatever that may be)? Then you could easily say "Yeah, I know Form X, Form Y and Form Z" and call it a day.

Its like how people get hung up on "Knight Level Play" - Knight Level Play doesn't mean "I'm a Jedi Knight" but "This is more advanced than starting characters". It's just a name.

Well...looking at the Soresu form, it's Parry (4), Reflect (3) with Improved Parry, Improved Reflect, and Supreme Parry. It also comes with Defensive Stance (2), Defensive Circle, and the unique Strategic Form.

...how is this a worse choice for him then Shien?

Fine, for the sake of argument, we'll switch out my tree for yours. At the end of the day, the cost remains the same: 300 points for the whole tree, 1,170-ish points for the whole character (perhaps just a touch more if we still give him the Shadow tree).

How many characteristics does he need? He must surely have better then 4/3/3/2/2/2. (which is what my characters tend to start from as a baseline)

I'd spend the 120 starting points to get two 2's and four 3's. When I picked up the two Dedications, depending on how the character was playing, I might turn a couple of the 3's into a 4 or I might bump the two 2's into 3's across the board. But with the starting character, I'd go 3/3/3//3/2/2

Hmmm. So far, I've been putting the 4 in whatever stat I was using for my saber, and then a 3 in willpower and a 3 in whatever else seemed appropriate.

Is it actually better to spread it out into 4 3s? 4 ability dice can be quite formidable.

Hmmm. So far, I've been putting the 4 in whatever stat I was using for my saber, and then a 3 in willpower and a 3 in whatever else seemed appropriate.

Is it actually better to spread it out into 4 3s? 4 ability dice can be quite formidable.

Yeah, but run the numbers a Lightsaber attacks are melee, that's always a base difficulty of only ♦♦ . Even assuming the opponent in question has a Defense of 1, 3 Ability with 2 Ranks in Lightsaber is going to hit more often then not, and crit pretty often. The lightsaber, with it's breach ability is a pretty powerful weapon. Even unmodded, because it ignores soak the lightsaber is going to do damage-per-attack roughly on par with a blaster rifle.