Ahem. Dark Empire is as canon as Thrawn and Hand of Thrawn, and I doubt you'd be so happy to throw those out. Anyways, if we might ignore Mickey Mouse for a while...

There's..very few people wiling to claim Sidious wasn't as strong in Dark Empire. Most have that version as about 120% of the one that existed in ROTJ.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/

I participate in vs. threads on that forum quite frequently. It's where most of my heirarchy for Force Users was established...how to decide how strong guys like Krayt, Kun, and other Legends luminaries should be placed.

It ended terribly for Luke in ROTJ. In Dark Empire? He does quite a bit better, even though Sidious is at the zenith of his power.

After all, we're talking about the guy I class as FR 8. I don't know what you guys rank those Force Storms at, but...

Do you know there's an ability that lets you pretend youre FR5 for 1 dramatic check per session? and it's right in Palpatine's class, literally in the second row? (I refer to Mystic: Advisor)

With a destiny point and a slightly above average roll, that's 8 pips, and with a maxxed Move tree...

1 pip to activate

2 pips to throw star destroyers at each other

2 pips to get into starship scale (plus however the GM interprets the scale boundary)

3 pips forup to 13 targets at once.

...I'm pretty sure I could build for that one trick as a knight level character.

1) Ahem. Dark Empire is as canon as Thrawn and Hand of Thrawn, and I doubt you'd be so happy to throw those out. Anyways, if we might ignore Mickey Mouse for a while...

2) There's..very few people wiling to claim Sidious wasn't as strong in Dark Empire. Most have that version as about 120% of the one that existed in ROTJ.

3) http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/

I participate in vs. threads on that forum quite frequently. It's where most of my heirarchy for Force Users was established...how to decide how strong guys like Krayt, Kun, and other Legends luminaries should be placed.

1) Neither Dark Empire or anything Thrawn-related is canon. It has nothing to do with what I'm happy about or not - that's irrelevant. Canon and what I use in my games (my personal canon or whatever you would call it) are two vastly different things, they're separate on so many levels it's silly. But ok, let's ignore Disney (and therefore also Lucas Film.)

2) That's not even a well founded an argument. You're basing it on "people" - at best an arbitrary category with no defining authority. I'm wondering if this is what is called an " argument from authority " ... Regardless though, a FR of 5 or 6 is more than sufficient in my opinion. Here we seem to disagree with little chance of agreement.

3) So ... errr... I don't know what to say about that, other than that it has no and will never have any bearing on me and my games. A bunch of vs.-threads on a fan forum have no defining authority on canon or a "hierarchy of force users," officially or otherwise. I get that the exercise can be fun, maybe even rewarding for some, maybe many, and I'm glad fans can find meaning in it. I'm sure it can inform some players' games, which I guess is a good thing.

Starting to wonder if Angelalex242 is just old forum troll ErikB/Sylphed under a new handle. Got about the same attitude of "Jedi are too weak!" in regards to the FFG system.

NO! DO NOT SPEAK HIS NAME!

I participate in vs. threads on that forum quite frequently.

Er...that's nice. So, for the purposes of this game, you've been given a perfectly viable solution: add XP. Anything else game-wise you have questions about?

2) That's not even a well founded an argument. You're basing it on "people" - at best an arbitrary category with no defining authority. I'm wondering if this is what is called an " argument from authority " ... Regardless though, a FR of 5 or 6 is more than sufficient in my opinion. Here we seem to disagree with little chance of agreement.

Actually, it's Argumentum Ad Populum . Same principle, still a fallacy, but different branch of the family. You know that if philosophers didn't split hairs then they wouldn't sound so clever.

EDIT: Also, it has yet to be established that most people do believe this thing before it can reach the stage of fallacy.

First...I have never been on this forum before. And Angelalex242 is the only handle I use on a variety of topics...which range from Buffy to Elfquest to Final Fantasy to Middle Eart to D&D of various editions to RPGs of other sorts.

I admittedly have unique perspectives from most people, but the things I say are honestly meant. That is, I believe what I'm telling you. I'm not just saying things to anger you. Deal with it as you will. No Dun Moch going on here.

Speaking of Appeal to Authority, most Disney 'authorities' fall into that. They only just bought the place, and have no say on how things were (Legends, EU). Only how things will be.

Angelalex242 doesn't seem like a troll or anything like that to me, just someone with a different point of view and preference for power levels. It's a preference I disagree with personally, but it's not like they're being rude and telling everyone that they're wrong.

No, he just called their opinions "a bag of dog crap" or something similar

I've got two campaigns I run that are done vanilla, and a third one that's a direct continuation of a game I ran in Saga Edition. It takes place during the Old Republic era and we built their characters to be as close an approximation as possible rather than using the regular rules for character creation (They're effectively playing as Nemesis tier NPCs)

They've got FR4 and attributes comparable to the NPC Inquisitors. And guess what, they pass all their force power checks. Their sabers cut through enemy defenses like they're not even there. They killed a rival of theirs and then used the force to bring him back to life just so they could kill him again. It's insane.

I would hate if this was the only game I ran, but as this intentionally crazy and over the top thing it can be incredibly fun. I guess my point is that even though a lot of the power-level EU is absurd, I can see the appeal of it every now and then. Also that your Force Rating doesn't have to be double digits and you don't need every talent tree filled out to be a demi-god.

No, he just called their opinions "a bag of dog crap" or something similar

Oh. Never mind, that's some dog crap.

For the record, if you go back to page 3, you can see it was NOT me who called anyone else's ideas dog excrement. It was CyberKnightSteve.

Do make sure I'm actually guilty of the crime before accusing me of one. Proper procedure, and all.

Anyways, I see the current debate as being the equivalent of the D&D player who likes games to start at level 1 and end at level 6, vs. a guy like me who wants to play at level 18 or more. Neither method is wrong, after all, and badass heroes have equally badass villains. That's why Superman fights guys like Darkseid and Doomsday instead of, well, Two Face or Riddler.

I might even go so far as to say as high level play requires more thinking and strategy simply because you have SO MANY OPTIONS. Your Jedi is going to save lives. But choosing wisely might save more of them.

And, of course, the Dark Side is a lure at any level. Ask Dooku. And Anakin. And Jacen Solo.

For the record, if you go back to page 3, you can see it was NOT me who called anyone else's ideas dog excrement. It was CyberKnightSteve.

Do make sure I'm actually guilty of the crime before accusing me of one. Proper procedure, and all.

Anyways, I see the current debate as being the equivalent of the D&D player who likes games to start at level 1 and end at level 6, vs. a guy like me who wants to play at level 18 or more. Neither method is wrong, after all, and badass heroes have equally badass villains. That's why Superman fights guys like Darkseid and Doomsday instead of, well, Two Face or Riddler.

I might even go so far as to say as high level play requires more thinking and strategy simply because you have SO MANY OPTIONS. Your Jedi is going to save lives. But choosing wisely might save more of them.

And, of course, the Dark Side is a lure at any level. Ask Dooku. And Anakin. And Jacen Solo.

See the topic I just posted, titled "Majora Sephiroth"

It's amazing what you can do with Knight level if you;re willing to share the limelight...

Yeah, sorry, I knew there was something wrong but was too lazy to check. Anyway, I don't think anyone takes what I said seriously, so don't be obligued, really It was more a reply to Revan than an accusation to you. Actually, it's 05:30 here and I should be sleeping...

I'm running a came currently where all of my players started with 200 bonus xp that could be spent on any F&D material and then another 100 xp on choosing one specialization from EoE or AoR. Then I gave all players a bonus +2 to one characteristic after character creation and an additional +1 to three other characteristics after creation. Now my players have been playing over a dozen sessions where I have been giving 20-30 xp per session. I restricted players from getting any skills above 3 ranks unless they are knowledge skills. I have also restricted Force Ratings not to exceed a 3 at the moment. The game is going great. The only extra work is on my part to make enemies and scenes that are at their level which I enjoy.

Anyways, I see the current debate as being the equivalent of the D&D player who likes games to start at level 1 and end at level 6, vs. a guy like me who wants to play at level 18 or more. Neither method is wrong, after all, and badass heroes have equally badass villains.

No, nothing wrong with either, assuming you're coming at both with a reasonable understanding of how the game works. Again, I don't know, but it doesn't sound like you have actually played the game. If not, do yourself a favour and play normally first. Otherwise it's like jumping into a Porsche with a beginner's license.

Well, I don't have a face to face group, but I've played a good bit online. Play by Post does several odd things, though. Notably, it slows player growth down to a crawl.

Same things happens in other genres too.

Rare is the D&D game that lasts long enough to see level 2 before the GM gets kicked by RL.

Honestly, I think the "Jedi aren't strong enough!" folks are underestimating just how far a Force Rating of 2 can go in this system, especially if you're willing to make use of those dark side pips when you really need to get a power to work.

For the most part, it's less of a Force user in this system needing to acquire outrageously high Force Ratings and more needing to spend the XP on purchasing the various upgrades for Force powers. I've built and seen built test PCs at 150 bonus XP that were devastating with the Force, with Seer and Sage being top of the list due to how quick and easy it is for them to get a second Force Rating talent for Force Rating 2 and focusing on Move or Bind, or even Influence as their "primary attack" power. And doing quite well, especially if they're willing to accept some strain and conflict to convert those dark side pips into Force points to fuel their powers. Seen one encounter that should have been a pretty brutal fight get completely shut down by one PC using Bind to lock the target in place, leaving it immobilized and using the Control Upgrade so that if the giant beastie did try to attack, it'd wind up taking 4 strain (converted to wounds since it was a Rival) and the party just walked right past it, with the only person to get attacked being a Shii-Cho Knight that just used Parry and Improved Parry to negate most of the damage and smack it with his vibro-ax for good measure.

Yeah, mouthymerc is right in that there's been a lot of whining by folks of a similar view to Angelalex242 about how "it's too expensive to become a Jedi Knight!" based upon a ridiculously bloated idea of what a Jedi Knight actually should be. And a lot of that problem was informed by a bunch of hacks in the 90's treating Luke like some kind of demi-god messiah figure who could use the Force to solve any problem. And as I mentioned, too much focus being given to the "superstars" of the Jedi Order who were either major prodigies (Luke and Anakin) or benefited from a lifetime of training (Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Yoda, Mace Windu).

Although, if said crowd of "I want my Force users to be uber-gods!" really want to "correct" what they see as a deficiency, the easiest solution is simply to go back to how the EotE Beta handled Force powers, in that all you needed was a single Force point to activate an effect, and that any upgrades you had purchased that didn't say "commit a Force die" simply triggered automatically. That way, a Force Rating of 1 goes a lot further, and Force Rating 3 is insanely potent, enough that a starting PC could just sink their XP into Move and probably slaughter anything that crossed their path with alarmingly casual ease.

I get that you disagree with how Jedi should be represented, and I actually agree with most of what you're saying here, but telling people that they're "whining" and belittling their ideas isn't exactly polite. Given that I don't recall seeing you're name on any cannon Star Wars products, they're perceptions are just as valid as yours.

I don't agree with Force Rating 6,7,8,9 etc, but I feel Jedi need more xp than a normal player and as a GM don't believe in balance as much as they did in the system. If a player of mine wants to play a non jedi then they will have less xp then the jedi, but more equipment and roleplay the costs of being jedi will be obviously a hinderacne at times in this timeline

And that's about what it'd take for the TOR era, Clone Wars era...or even the JA/NJO...to Knight you.

And that'll be pretty much the end of your character. While I have yet to hit the "This character is too powerful to be fun" ceiling in the FFG engine, I suspect that 600+ points will be getting close to that point.

Then go play Force Unleashed.

Yeah. . . using FU as an example of balanced gameplay? I've seen worse examples, but I cant think of any at the moment.

I don't agree with Force Rating 6,7,8,9 etc, but I feel Jedi need more xp than a normal player and as a GM don't believe in balance as much as they did in the system. If a player of mine wants to play a non jedi then they will have less xp then the jedi, but more equipment and roleplay the costs of being jedi will be obviously a hinderacne at times in this timeline

There's already an option for that- Spending starting Duty/Taking starting obligation. If your character calls for extra XP, you could have 10, arguably even 15 more XP, but if you want more cool toys you can spend it for 3000c (that's 500+2500) or 4000c. No need to force the nonjedi Face character to buy a few extra blaster rifles...

I don't agree with Force Rating 6,7,8,9 etc, but I feel Jedi need more xp than a normal player and as a GM don't believe in balance as much as they did in the system. If a player of mine wants to play a non jedi then they will have less xp then the jedi, but more equipment and roleplay the costs of being jedi will be obviously a hinderacne at times in this timeline

The big risk with offsetting material gains with role-playing set backs (Paladin alignment restrictions, character is a member of an outlawed religion, whatever), is that unless the player is very willing, it becomes a game of chicken with the GM. The sort of player who doesn't care about acquiring in-setting social penalties in exchange for bonus dice is frequently the same player who doesn't bother observing the social penalties in play. And it needs to be cooperative because perversely, the bigger the social penalty (e.g. Jedi are outlawed and will be hunted), the MORE likely the player is to ignore it and expect the GM to avoid destroying their campaign over this one player. In fact, such players often even LIKE being pushed more into the spotlight and more combat.

It is very common to get this:

Player: "I use my lightsabre / blood magic / demonic strength" *rolls lots of damage*

GM: "The people around you react in horror and fear."

Player: "Okay."

GM: "They might call the ISB / Watch / Inquisition"

Player: "Okay."

GM: *Realises this would derail his planned story completely and possibly kill off the whole party because of this one player*

GM: "You get away with it, for now."

Every misbehaving child is familiar with a parent that makes threats that are too big for them to actually follow through on. And the typical "I want more killing ability, load me up with social penalties that I don't care about" style player, is exactly like that. UNLESS a GM is actually willing to kill off a player who plays chicken with them, trying to offset mechanical benefit with qualities like "Wanted" or whatever, just doesn't work.

The only system I've ever seen that handles such things well is, oddly enough, FFG's Obligation / Duty / Morality system. And it does it by concretely tying actual consequences to it. Anyway, just a cautionary word based on my years of witnessing this, imo.

Well that DOES heavily depend on era. Obi Wan Kenobi was a highly respected man in BBY 20. In BBY 18, he was a hunted, wanted man in exile.

Of course, there's a different system for punishing misdeeds.

"You pull out your lightsaber and gank him? Great, take 9 conflict, as your anger and rage pushes you down the Dark Path...."

Previous Star Wars games typically have some kind of Dark Side mechanic in the event of players doing no nos. Usually similar in practice to the Paladin Code, though most Star Wars systems design their morality in a more easily enforced and less arbitrary way. Jedi don't instantly go Dark over one misdeed. Not even Anakin goes dark over one misdeed. Paladins, on the other hand...screw up one and it's over.

Also, I don't consider 600 XP the end of anything.

For me, it's just the beginning. Also, that 600 XP character is sure to have a padawan learner. Padawan might have 150 XP. And the Knight's job is to train him to be a Knight (at 600 XP). Cause that's how Master Padawan works.

For me, it's just the beginning. Also, that 600 XP character is sure to have a padawan learner. Padawan might have 150 XP. And the Knight's job is to train him to be a Knight (at 600 XP). Cause that's how Master Padawan works.

Well, from a story standpoint, sure I can see having a student as just one step on that characters arc - but from a strictly game mechanics view, I cant imagine that a 600+ point character is challenging or fun. Your starting tree is all filled out, your secondary tree is nearly there, you've got several force powers fleshed out, and all you have to do is come into a room, turn on your saber and all bad guys fall down dead.

It'd be like playing Doom with God Mode turned on. Fun for a little bit, great for finding all the secret rooms, but boring in the long term.

(Mind you, you can build charterers with lots of points that aren't boring. My politico has something like 4 or 5 trees plus a couple of force powers, and that can be a HUGE drain on the XP. I think she barely has 2 yellows in any one skill at best.)