Come to think of it...adding 'em all up...

How many Force Powers are there you can just allocate a dice to permanently?

Well, I for one only treat 2 things as the indomitable staples of Star Wars, and that doesn't include anything from the original Trilogy.

I'm talking about this single scene from the Holiday Special , and a totally absolutely canon Jedi droid named Skippy .

Anyways, back on topic.

So I'm coming at this whole thread as a newbie to the FFG Star Wars games. Age of Rebellion is on its way to me right now, and I had plans on purchasing Force and Destiny. This discussion has turned into one of Jedi power and balance with the other careers, or whatever they are called in this game. I wonder, do Force users outshine other careers? Is a Jedi with the Force able to be a better "Face" then the "Face" career? Is a Jedi Knight going to mop the floor with enemies while a soldier is less effective?

From the get-go, and this sort of applies in all cases, a non-force sensitive that focuses just on their skills and talents will be better at rolling than somebody who has to take into account things like Force Powers and possibly focusing on Willpower and/or Discipline when they might not otherwise. But Force Powers and lucky rolls on Force dice can help level the playing field and even put them higher the more Force Rating they have and the more points spent on Powers. But there's always going to be certain limits on both sides. A non-force sensitive won't be able to lift objects that are out of his reach to help him out of a tight spot, but a force-sensitive that focuses too much on mind-altering force powers might find that they're completely useless when put up against simple droids and cameras. So even though, eventually, Jedi can be a lot better in a number of scenarios, there's still some give and take. And this isn't even counting era-dependent need for force-sensitives to be more subtle about their powers where flashing them can get an Inquisitor sent on them.

Well, it's more like the people with higher Force Ratings can afford to leave dice permanently ensconced in the 'allocate a dice to this power' powers. You can have sense up permanently, for example, and everything else like it.

GM: Hey, Yoda, do you have Sense up?

Yoda: Always have sense up, I do. Force Rating 7 I have for a reason, yes?

GM: Right. You catch the Clone Troopers about to kill you and decapitate them easily. Also, you feel the deaths of everyone less awesome then you who just died.

You could really amount that to flipping a Destiny Point, GM being nice and giving it to the player because they have Foresee/Sense, or Yoda having 1 Force die committed to Sense. But this is all assuming you're treating Yoda as a player, and not just the GM describing the actions of NPCs in a scene to the players to spice things up.

How many Force Powers are there you can just allocate a dice to permanently?

Standard commits, not including things where you need to activate a power to sustain the effects, there's Enhance, Misdirect, Seek, and Sense.

So, considering this game (which I call SWFFG):

Jedi are quite balanced characters. They seem to have a similar potential to non-Force chars. This is good, because it's a game and every player should have the same chances to shine during gameplay (though probably at different areas or in diverse ways) for fairness' sake (sorry but I can't remember if there an s after the apostrophe).

Considering the SW Universe setting , be it Cannon 1, 2, 3, Legends, EU (European Union in my mind ) or whatever the heck:

Jedi are powerful. Very powerful. This is because:

a) Jedi are people trained from an early age to master abilities which separates them from common people. They need to be born with an affinity for the Force, and they are tought taught how to combine "magic" and mundane to be the guides and guardians of the people. Not everyone can be a Jedi, and those who are excel at many things at the same time.

b) The big core theme of the SW Universe is the fight Good vs Evil, and this is represented by the two sides of the Force, Jedi and Sith. They are present all through the SW timeline, and they are the cause of all major changes in the galaxy. That is why they are usually the most important characters (there are exceptions, of course) and shine over everyone else.

Now, trying to mix both concepts can be difficult. In a game, like SWFFG, this is done by adressing it at 2 levels: the player level, where sensitive and non-sensitive characters have similar power level, and the setting level, where important sensitive NPCs have power levels cosmically higher than everyone else (in this case, the Emperor, Vader, etc). And again, every setting has its tools - in the case of Rebellion Era, one common tool is "Jedi are very powerful BUT there are Jedi no more, you need to learn yourself and the sources are scarce".

I hope this all makes sense, and helps smooth things out a bit.

Edit: sorry about the poor style, spelling and grammar, it's a bit too early here

Hey, some of us prefer an EU class game. Tim Zahn and Karen Travis and all those people who wrote those books had a certain mindset. Some of us want that mindset in our games.

Just like...you can beat Final Fantasy 1 at level 30. Some people beat it at 15. You could also level up to 50. I level to 50. Because I can. And that's how I roll. Some of you minimalist types are more what I call 'low level run' people.

But don't hide behind 'canon' with me. It's useless. I consider everything Disney threw out to still be part of my canon. And that's that.

If you like the fact Mara Jade Skywalker never existed, that's your fun. But I like to her to exist, and that's my fun.

And it's fine that you like these things and want to play the game your way. But what all of the above does NOT do is two things: suffice as an argument as to why your take on things should be set over canon and suffice as an argument why Force-using characters should be better in a game than non-Force using characters.

As to the rest of us "hiding behind canon", I'm not "hiding". I'm flat out saying that canon should be the default because it fits with the media most of us have seen and gives people common ground and is a better basis for a game than mixing absurdly powerful super-beings with regular people.

Canon preachers are nothing but back bencher, fairweather fans, absent during the lean years when being a Star Wars fan wasnt "cool" and now coming out and telling everyone else, whats right, whats wrong and how to play by their rules. Well Frak you and the starfighter you rode in on. I've been a Star Wars fan since day one and saw "A new hope" first released in the late 70's in the theaters five times before it was renamed episode 4 A New Hope, so my own council will I keep on what is and what is not in my fandom. You should know there never was a canon EU distinction with the exception of the comics, and when Timothy Zahn wrote the Thrawn Trilogy Lucas himself endorsed it. This canon crap didnt really start gaining ground until the special editions and the prequels were released. I'm not making the case the "EU" was all great, some of it was, some of it was crap.

Dont get all high and mighty oh honorable canon judge because you were too lazy to take the time to read actual books like most of us did. The only difference between your opinion and a bag of dog excrement is the bag as far as I'm concerned and that goes for Disney the Megacorp too.

I find it hard to take your post seriously with its attempt to portray your position as superior because you feel more morally entitled through greater loyalty to the brand. It's just an RPG and some cartoons / movies. It can be fun, but that's all that it is. Nope, I didn't see it in theatres "five times". In fact, I think I've only ever seen one of the films at the cinema which was TPM. And I haven't read all the EU novels due to "laziness", I'm just not interested and what I have seen of it reads like adolescent power fantasies for the most part. That you feel so entitled to dismiss other people's position as no different to "a bag of dog excrement" because we are "fairweather fans" (which I take to mean we are only fans so long as the franchise is good to us - which is something I'm totally okay with as I owe it no magical loyalty), makes you the one acting like a "mighty judge", imo.

The system is, amazingly, flexible enough to actually support playing the way you want. But it is rightly consistent with the movies and official cartoons by default and if it weren't it would lead to a great deal of problems. Secondly, it is absolutely right that Force-using characters should be balanced with non-Force using characters and people here who have been arguing that they should be more special than non-Force using characters are wrong.

Finally, it's not being a "mighty oh honourable canon judge" to point out simple poor understandings of the rules. Doing something like setting FR5 as the minimum for being a "Jedi Master", with the implication that someone like Obi Wan is even higher, creates gross discrepancies with what we actually see on screen. There's no suggestion that Obi-Wan can fling four-plus YT-1300's at his enemies and several occasions in TCW where he struggles to do things much less than this. So why assign him numbers that say he can? That's not reason to say '**** you and the horse you rode in on' and the fact that you've been a Star Wars fan since Episode IV came out doesn't make you right.

If anything, it suggests that along with talk about how your greater loyalty to the setting makes your arguments more valid, that maybe Star Wars is a little too important to you to be healthy. For the first time ever I understand Alec Guinness's words: "I want you to never watch Star Wars again". Based on your post, I wonder if you might be the child from Alec Guinness's story:

Well...there's such a thing as diminishing returns. Give a Force User and a non Force User 200 XP, and the non force user will typically come out ahead, because at that point he's a veteran smuggler vs. a padawan at best. But there's a tipping point. Some point in a Force User's life where the non force users simply become second class citizens.

This is called 'linear warriors quadratic wizards.'

Over in D&D 3.5e, a 1st or 2nd level fighter can kill a 1st or 2nd level wizard. At level 20...the wizard points and laughs at the fighter and 100 clones of him too.

That is the difference between jedi (sith) and everyone else. They're the wizard. They're the 'Tier 1 character.'

Well...there's such a thing as diminishing returns. Give a Force User and a non Force User 200 XP, and the non force user will typically come out ahead, because at that point he's a veteran smuggler vs. a padawan at best. But there's a tipping point. Some point in a Force User's life where the non force users simply become second class citizens.

This is called 'linear warriors quadratic wizards.'

Over in D&D 3.5e, a 1st or 2nd level fighter can kill a 1st or 2nd level wizard. At level 20...the wizard points and laughs at the fighter and 100 clones of him too.

I don't think that's true. There are certainly ways you can spend XP to be more or less effective at something than another character with the same XP, but that's true of any career / specialization, not just Force users. But a 100XP starting Force user (that's the free XP you get during creation) is plenty effective. And I'm not sure there's some tipping point where they become inherently better than anyone else. I mean with truly high amounts of XP you could throw a YT-1300 at someone, but it would still be a Hard Discipline check to hit them and it would be situational (you need something to throw, you need to be outdoors, etc) whilst a highly-maxed out Heavy (our equivalent) can be laying down terrifying amounts of firepower at the same time. In fact, they have a signature ability that lets them auto-eliminate all minions in an encounter - how's that for wiping out 100 clones?

Force users in EotE / AoR / FaD are definitely not akin to 1st level wizards in D&D. They're effective from the start and I've seen no evidence that they vastly overpower non-Force users in later game. I'm honestly starting to question how much you have actually played this game with Force-using characters.

I think you'll find that this d20-phenomenon of imbalance and ruination of games is not the case here. Luckily. At least not in a comparably bad way.

If you give 200XP to a forcie and a normal, they'll be about as powerful as each other, in their respective fields of specialisation . A force power can replace one or mores skills sure, but luckily there are skills that are not and cannot be replaced by force powers.

And talents, talents are great!

So if you go UCT or Move badass spec, sure, few non-forcies are going to be able to compete damage and combat wise perhaps (except the Heavy with his fully modded hand-held turbolaser battery equivalent), but the pilot and the face of the group will outshine the forcie in their fields. The sniper and infiltrator are going to be better to overcome challenges where their skill sets are more needed.

This is as it should be, Jedi/Sith are not omnipotent jack of all trades. The whole idea about stories is to play on strengths and weaknesses of the characters involved in the story. If not they cannot be challenged, and if they cannot be challenged, there's no real story is there...

Now as for what you count as canon, that is irrelevant to everyone but you and your players, just like what I consider canon is irrelevant to everyone but me (and my players when I have some).

There is one official canon, there is legends, and then there is swtor... FFG can obviously draw from all of these sources, or at least they could as seen in their swtor reference at least one place and some tfu references somewhere else. FFG should use official canon as the default setting and power level, I'm glad they have done so (more or less). At the same time they've also designed a system that can withstand high-powered play, at least it seems so, my last campaign ended at about 300 earned xp to the players, or there about, so I haven't seen real high powered play yet (but they were pretty badass even at 300!!).

So if you want to have a face slap match with the horribly regurgitated creative abomination that is Abeloth, sure, go for it! I think the system can take it. If you want your characters to start with FR 4 so that they can have 1-2 force dice committed and still have a reasonable chance to activate and use other powers, sure, go for it! All the power to you! Have fun!

The official canon is; the OT plus Rebels, plus PT and TCW (and whatever books that have been released since the big b in day ) and whatever Marvel now conjures (and I assume new computer games adds into to this as well - except anything swtor).

For most table-top RPG players and I think for the FFG SWRPG in particular you're dealing with fans on many different levels, so then the least common multiple must become the working canon, the bottom line, the default setting. Arguably this is the OT and PT for most people, and from the various "fan"-level onwards you start to include TCW and Rebels and other stuff. So they base it off the OT, as that is the era, and then they add for flavour and depth a lot of other stuff that some will recognise and others will not.

The more stuff you add to your personal notion of canon the further away you get from other fans and other people, and on these forums, other gamers. There is nothing wrong about that, I guess, but it changes the premisses of the perspective and the discussion on such a fundamental level that it can become meaningless as people starts to use simple rhetorical tricks, tautological arguments, obscure references and arguments to authority and all that kind of nonsense to claim something about their perspective that makes it more valid, or better or cooler or whatever, than the "oppositions'" perspective... which is completely pointless and meaningless really, you don't have to justify why you have that particular perspective, and no it cannot be objectively or inter-subjectively better or cooler or "righter" than any other perspective, it purely subjective, shared perhaps with some others, but it's basically taste and preference. The fact that other fans can become the "opposition" because their perspective differs... is a bit... yeah. Hard to get.

This is called 'linear warriors quadratic wizards.'

In this game, if this curve exists, and I'm not saying it does, it's far shallower and much harder to quantify. Too many variables, and the class system (if you can call it that) is far more open. The power curve in general is much more flat, meaning squads of stormtroopers are always a threat (unlike in D&D where you can lie down and nap while kobolds pound on you). Like in the movies, it's rare for someone to completely dominate. Even Mace had to concentrate to take out Jango.

Personally I'm in the "Jedi are better" camp, but it's really only about the amount of XP. They aren't better out of the gate, they're just different. It's the lifetime of learning and devotion that distinguishes them. So if you want to play knights, yes you'll need to start with more XP. I'm also not in the minimalist camp, so my rough peg is "Knight at 300", but that's just one opinion and YMMV.

I might have missed it, but it's not clear to me if you or your group have actually played the game yet. If not, do yourself a favour and don't throw a bunch of XP at new players ... nobody will know what to do with it. The subtleties of dice pools and talents, how the game supports action but doesn't really support "tanking" at least early on, etc, are worth learning before you launch into full blown epic mode.

For the first time ever I understand Alec Guinness's words: "I want you to never watch Star Wars again".

Interesting, I never knew how he felt about that. I think though it wasn't so much about Star Wars as a change in media distribution. There was a shift in the late 70s/early 80s where everything was more prevalent more often. I remember my sister going to see Indiana Jones a dozen times, which I thought was weird. Before that time period seeing something more than once was rare simply because it wasn't possible.

Just saying I pegged Knight at around 600. Half a saber tree, FR 3 from the other two career trees, 1 rank in all career skills, 3 ranks in saber, 5 force powers with 30 xp a piece.

I might have missed it, but it's not clear to me if you or your group have actually played the game yet. If not, do yourself a favour and don't throw a bunch of XP at new players ... nobody will know what to do with it. The subtleties of dice pools and talents, how the game supports action but doesn't really support "tanking" at least early on, etc, are worth learning before you launch into full blown epic mode.

This is good advice. There is something to be said for building up to your epic character. Things get lost in the cracks if you aren't familiar with how everything works in the game.

I honestly think rather than an XP boost at start (like the 150 at knight level) the XP given at the end of the session should get a boost either by 150% or 2x or whatever. That way they still EARN the upgrades.

I honestly think rather than an XP boost at start (like the 150 at knight level) the XP given at the end of the session should get a boost either by 150% or 2x or whatever. That way they still EARN the upgrades.

This is what I've been doing with my current campaign. Now they've hit 200+XP I'm ratcheting the rewards back to normal.

One thing I really like about Saga Edition Star Wars is that you can cover most character concepts at first level and almost always by 3rd level - you may not have everything at this point but you can get the fundamentals and your character at least feels right. Especially with Jedi, at first level (even moreso by 3rd) you can have a smattering of force powers to cover the "core Jedi" powers and be good as using a lightsaber (for the level). (Saga's problem is Skill Focus and Use The Force at early levels that make Jedi too powerful if built that way).

FFGs approach is a more gradual approach. I don't really buy the line of thinking that the F&D Careers aren't "really" Jedi because of the era the book fluff is centered around. As I recall the pre-F&D speculation no one imagined there would be entire specializations devoted to specific lightsaber forms. So, it seems to me that proper Jedi are supported by the system (and it seems to me designed with this intent). But like anything else in the FFG system growth is gradual. But it is steady.

And some readjustment of expectations is helpful. Some of the force powers can be very potent (like Move with Sil 2 up to Sil 4 objects doing Silx10 damage) but they take some time to develop. And the GM can use the narrative nature of the system to tune the epicness (or silliness depending on your tastes) of use of the force.

After on session of say 20 or 25XP you can buy a base force power and an updrade or two so it won't take too long to get some foundation in the "core Jedi" force powers (it's even cheaper with Mentor options and Mentor seems like a way to replicate the experience of having grown up and being part of the Jedi Order during non-Imperial eras).

There are some good options for "Jedi Knight on the cheap".

So, with Niman Disciple you can do alot within on spec.

Niman Disciple seems like the prototypical Jedi Knight spec - a very balanced approach that offers Force Rating and Dedication as well as access to Parry and Reflect and some other nice Talents.

Being good with a lightsaber can easliy be accomplished by a good Characteristic and Ranks in Lightsaber, picking up Parry and Reflect in any of the many specs it's available in.

If you want a quicker route to Force Rating of 3 then start Seer (you'll forgoe immediate access to Parry and Reflect).

Want more lightsaber focus then cross-spec into Ataru or Shii-cho or Shien.

Cross-career specs of Niman Disciple and Seer seem like the prototypical Jedi Master to me. Can tear things up with a lightsaber and have a FR: 4 and some other cool force tricks up their sleeve.

There are certainly a lot of ways to build a Jedi Knight but Niman Disciple allows for a fairly quick route to a Jedi Knight.

As a quick note I'll also add that dropping 40XP into Sense gives you a potent way of using the starting FR: 1 (essentially giving your character Adversary 2).

Another difference between FFG and previous Star Wars RPG Jedi is how much of a "support" aspect there is to the character.

Most if not all of the "core" Jedi things just fell into the character mechanically with a class based system. You had the option to branch out into "support" roles but for the most part core character features were just there when you leveled.

In FFG you have to spend XP on "support" features to round out the character - gaining some ability in Force powers you don't necessarily want to excel at but need some ability in for the character to work and feel right (i.e., you'll want at least some ability in Sense, Influence, Enhance, Move, and Foresee but probably only want more depth of ability in several of these), or a Rank or two in skills to round out the Jedi concept (and Career/Spec can be helpful here to making "support" skills cheaper for you).

So, while a Jedi character will need to throw 50 XP into Enhance (and need FR: 2 for reliability) to pull off the Jedi jumping ability (overcosted in my opinion but oh well) or 10 or 20 or 30XP each into other Force Powers to get enough ability to make a well rounded Jedi (and on things you may not use that often) other non-support characters are using all that XP to buy up more combat or whatever other ability.

So compared to previous experience with previous Star Wars RPG systems the well rounded Jedi isn't going to be keeping up in the combat role with other dedicated non-support characters.

One "balance" to this in the game is the lightsaber being a very powerful weapon that Jedi can more easily mod (Crit 1 is right at your doorstep). And with the various lightsaber crystals available the GM can easily throw more power the Jedi's way if they feel it's warranted.

Also, once you've reached a certain XP total you get diminishing returns on focusing so much on one aspect of the game (like combat) so the Jedi will catch up.

This also assumes a player wants to create a balanced Jedi character. If the player is happy with just small dips into the "core" Jedi force powers - perhaps with more XP put into combat powers - they can get away with it and focus a lot more on a lightsaber combat tree.

Dont get all high and mighty oh honorable canon judge because you were too lazy to take the time to read actual books like most of us did.

I've read a large number of the EU books.

And guess what? 90% of them are complete and utter crap that should never have seen print, especially the NJO drek and most of what followed in that time frame being as bad if not worse. Hell, if it was from the 90's and does not have Timothy Zahn's name attached or isn't part of the X-Wing series, it's generally not worth reading. And while I was never the biggest fan of the Dune series, and I do feel sorry for those fans that Kevin J. Anderson has decided to go defile that franchise, at least he's got nothing more to do with Star Wars these days. About the only EU characters that I'd like to see get returned to the proper canon are Mara Jade, Ben Skywalker, and Thrawn, with everyone else taking a flying dive into a smelting pit as far as I'm concerned. And those were the only three that I really liked even before the canon reboot came in and did some much needing house-cleaning.

The Force Unleashed was a fun video game, but is simply that: a video game. Even back when it was considered part of the overall canon, only the storyline events were considered, not the general game play antics of Starkiller steamrolling just about everything in his path; it was a broad strokes retelling of the events that lead up to the formation of the Alliance proper. Even his big feat with the Star Destroyer was considered less of him pulling it out of orbit and more a cause of guiding it into a controlled crash.

And all of this junk was rightfully tossed out when Disney took ownership of the franchise. Until then, about the only thing Lucasfilm really cared about was the money rolling in; TCW overwrote or ignored a sizable portion of the EU where the Clone Wars was concerned, with a couple of hot points being "What do you Anakin now has an apprentice!" and "Mandalorians are now a peaceful culture?"

In regards to Force users, I could give a flying flip about what is or isn't "canon," I'd prefer an RPG where Force users can contribute to the party but don't quickly overwhelm the contributions of the mundanes in the group. I've been in the RPG hobby for most of my life, and I've seen many a Star Wars game in prior systems wind up being "The Adventures of Bob the Mighty Jedi and his rag-tag band of hangers-ons," particularly in D6 where it got to the point some GMs outright forbade the inclusion of Force-sensitive PCs from their games so that the mundanes would still have their chances to shine. OCR/RCR was a bit mixed, in that Force users could be devastating with their powers, but also a bit of glass cannons in the early going since they had to burn their health to use those powers. Saga Edition faired a little better, but the way that skill checks scaled and interacted with defense scores lead to problems where the Skill Focus feat was concerned, as well as how utterly broken some Force powers were, with Force grip and move object leading the pack, both of which were found in the core rulebook.

FFG opted to take a non-powergamer/munchkin tact in regards to Force users, keeping with the general lore of the default time frame and that Force users were generally rare and much of the established training regimens of the past simply are not available to them. It also has this approach to development of mundanes in general; you don't start out being handed the awesome, but instead you have to build up to it. And I've done enough stress testing that even a "paltry" Force user with FR 2 can be pretty devastating with the right selection of Force powers and a solid Discipline skill pool (minimum Willpower 3 and Discipline 3). Most of what Angie's claims of needing 600XP minimum to make an "average" Jedi Knight are wishful power-gaming bull crap based on skewed expectations that Obi-Wan and Anakin were the norm when they instead were the kids that shattered the bell curve for the rest of the class.

If anything, the guideline for a truly "average" Jedi Knight would probably look more like this:

Honestly, I'd say a classic/prequel Jedi Knight could be done with just the following requirements as the bare minimum:

Characteristics: 3 in Willpower, and then a 3 in whichever Characteristic matches up with the LS Form spec that you've taken.

Skills: Lightsaber and Discipline at 3 each, Negotiation and Knowledge: Lore at 2 each, and then Athletics, Coordination, Leadership, Perception, Vigilance, and Knowledge: Education at 1 rank each.

Talents: Parry 2, Reflect 2, Force Rating 1 (giving FR 2)

Powers: Sense (basic plus "defensive" Control Upgrade), Move (basic plus Range Upgrade, Strength Upgrade, and "hurl objects" Control Upgrade), Enhance (basic power + the first two "Force Leap" Control Upgrades)

The above gives you a reasonably competent individual that can handle themselves in a variety of situations, with a focus on combat prowess but also being able to settle things peacefully if possible. Exact XP cost would vary depending on starting career and starting spec (a Niman Disciple will have an easier time with those skill requirements than most). And they're not an over-powered demigod either that leaves the rest of the party choking on their exhaust as they steamroll through each and every encounter.

As I stressed in another thread, the "average" Jedi Knight was not on the same tier as Obi-Wan (who made Master before he was 40, something that's very unusual and probably due to the Clone Wars thinning out the number of eligible Masters) or Anakin (Chosen One of a prophecy).

Jedi Ronin,

I'd say that Niman Disciple is almost the "go-to" spec if a PC wants to be equally capable with a lightsaber and Force usage, to the point that I'd suggest it as the second spec a PC wanting to aim for what one might deem a "typical Jedi" should be in terms of capabilities. A Force Rating talent along with 2 Defensive Trainings and 3 ranks each in Parry and Reflect make it a very nice spec to add on to a 'saber-using PC, or even one that wants a "balanced" approach to Force usage and lightsaber wielding.

And when you get right down to it... yeah, the camp that claims you need too much XP to make a "proper" Jedi Knight simply has a skewed expectation. And frankly a lot of the blame for that skewed perception can probably be placed at the feet of the more recent Star Wars media with it's over-focus on the Jedi, specifically Anakin and Obi-Wan, the Jedi Order's two golden boys and probably the greatest heroes of the entire Clone Wars. The majority of the other major Jedi we saw in the prequels and TCW were Jedi Masters, with the occasional Padawan, but even Ahsoka was head of the curve in terms of what the average Padawan would likely be capable of doing.

Jedi Ronin,

I'd say that Niman Disciple is almost the "go-to" spec if a PC wants to be equally capable with a lightsaber and Force usage, to the point that I'd suggest it as the second spec a PC wanting to aim for what one might deem a "typical Jedi" should be in terms of capabilities. A Force Rating talent along with 2 Defensive Trainings and 3 ranks each in Parry and Reflect make it a very nice spec to add on to a 'saber-using PC, or even one that wants a "balanced" approach to Force usage and lightsaber wielding.

And when you get right down to it... yeah, the camp that claims you need too much XP to make a "proper" Jedi Knight simply has a skewed expectation. And frankly a lot of the blame for that skewed perception can probably be placed at the feet of the more recent Star Wars media with it's over-focus on the Jedi, specifically Anakin and Obi-Wan, the Jedi Order's two golden boys and probably the greatest heroes of the entire Clone Wars. The majority of the other major Jedi we saw in the prequels and TCW were Jedi Masters, with the occasional Padawan, but even Ahsoka was head of the curve in terms of what the average Padawan would likely be capable of doing.

I usually think of Obi-wan as the Jedi standard. I agree he was above average - as you say he made it to Master early and he also defeated a Sith as a Padawan. But I don't really think we see him do anything too crazy mechanically in film or in The Clone Wars. He's good with a lightsaber. Pretty good to good at Sense, Move, Enhance, and ok (or good?) at Influence. Maybe the base power of Forsee. He's ok with Pilot and some other skills. I think this is a reasonable standard for a Jedi Knight that's not overly XP intensive - it also follows the solid general outline you listed above for Jedi Knight.

I think the Jedi Are Totally Awesome skew also comes from who they are running around with. Take the Clone Wars: Obi-wan, Anakin, Ahsoka look awesome against battle droids and compared to clone troopers. But they also get bested by Ventress, Dooku, pirates, Mandalorians, and bounty hunters. In other words, they get seriously challenged by Nemesis "mundanes" and Sith. Much of the flair of being a Jedi can be handled narratively. All PCs regardless of Career would look good or be challenged in the same circumstances.

I agree that Niman Disciple is the go to spec for the balanced Jedi - either as the first cross class spec or as an original spec. I think Seer makes a great cross-class spec for a character starting in a lightsaber spec for creating a balanced character.

Why do people point to Force unleased as some god-mode superjedi? Starkiller is pathetic.

His lightsaber skills are best represented by the single human skill point on brawn 3, and his animic "force leap" is just the base Enhance FR to Athletics.

He's got reliable access to the Move tree, but he's a darksider- Emergent/Seer FR3 with dark pips averages 2 pips per roll, plenty for the kind of short range tricks he works with. He doesnt "Sence" till halfway through the game (yay adventure XP!) he doesnt mind trick anyone, he doesnt use illusions or track people- he doesnt even throw lightning till the second level.

By the time he's catching star destroyers, he's gotten FR4 and a maxxed move tree, barely 300 XP. With a destiny point, 6 pips is a reasonable enough roll on FR4- 1 to activate the power, 2 for range, and 3 for sillouette.

Why do people point to Force unleased as some god-mode superjedi? Starkiller is pathetic.

His lightsaber skills are best represented by the single human skill point on brawn 3, and his animic "force leap" is just the base Enhance FR to Athletics.

He's got reliable access to the Move tree, but he's a darksider- Emergent/Seer FR3 with dark pips averages 2 pips per roll, plenty for the kind of short range tricks he works with. He doesnt "Sence" till halfway through the game (yay adventure XP!) he doesnt mind trick anyone, he doesnt use illusions or track people- he doesnt even throw lightning till the second level.

By the time he's catching star destroyers, he's gotten FR4 and a maxxed move tree, barely 300 XP. With a destiny point, 6 pips is a reasonable enough roll on FR4- 1 to activate the power, 2 for range, and 3 for sillouette.

And he goes up against a lot of minion groups where good rolls can take out multiple opponents with one action.

Well, he takes on Vader at the end...and that goes well.

Then he takes on Sidious...and since he's not named Luke, that ends terribly.

Well, he takes on Vader at the end...and that goes well.

Then he takes on Sidious...and since he's not named Luke, that ends terribly.

To be fair, it ended terribly for luke as well. Just not fatally so.

It ended terribly for Luke in ROTJ. In Dark Empire? He does quite a bit better, even though Sidious is at the zenith of his power.

After all, we're talking about the guy I class as FR 8. I don't know what you guys rank those Force Storms at, but...

Dark Empire? Faulty clones dude... and zenith of his power? I think not. Younger body perhaps. Not more powerful, FR no higher than 6 I'd say, perhaps 5 effectively from having to keep the faulty clones from dying straight away. I really like(d) Dark Empire and Dark Empire 2 (Empire's End on the other hand... *shudder*), but the Emperor/Sidious was perhaps the most useless part of that story (although a good contestant is Empatojayos Brand.) Luckily it never happened in canon based on the least common multiple.

As for the Force Storm power? If I were to make anything like that, I'd require no more than FR 3 to buy it, and 2 dark side force pips to activate the base power. Of course, I'd not make it a force power to be bought or acquired in-game, it'd be a plot device more than a power to be used in combat.