What benefit does replicating perfectly other parts of Star Wars do in this RPG?

Variety.

"This system is robust enough to handle every Era in the entire EU, bar none."

So the consensus is that FR 1 is powerful enough to justify starting with one fewer skill point?

That, and it takes a whopping 5XP to get your skill point back. No big deal.

Hmmmm much buthurt I sense....

Seems like a whole bunch of people who have played the 3, 3.5, 4E WOTC games are acting like a bunch of former bullying victims suffering from a form of PTSD because Jedi were too powerful in a broken system that never could handle the SW genre. Get the Frak over it already.

Well thanks to the new system with the individual talent trees every class has their special niche safe from Jedi ballhogs! Besides no game system is immune to min/maxers, and rule exploiters, even this one. So stop punishing force using characters! Ive seen Hired Gun builds more unweildy than any Jedi.
I've had problems with lightsaber wielding Jedi (because of breach) that I've had put all my big bads in cortosis armor but then on the other side the jedi are so weak and limited in the use of their powers the "magic" is gone out of the class. It really sucks if you dont want to play a saber Jedi but an alternate force user like a beast rider of Onderon, a dathomir witch or something that relies more on powers and skills than flashy sword play. You can swing your lightsaber to infinity and beyond but your ability to even use the Force is limited by a roll of the dice. Thats just not Star Wars. I will fix it with house rules though.

What he said.

The reason my Force Ratings are as high as they are is that the number I look at is 'what is the average number of Light Side Pips this character can expect to roll?'

I do not care about 'what is the maximum number of pips this character can roll.'

That is, if you roll this character's Force Dice 100 times, how many can they expect to use on average?

That's why my numbers are as high as they are. I care about how reliable the powers are, not that once in a blue moon God loves me roll.

Hmmmm much buthurt I sense....

Seems like a whole bunch of people who have played the 3, 3.5, 4E WOTC games are acting like a bunch of former bullying victims suffering from a form of PTSD because Jedi were too powerful in a broken system that never could handle the SW genre. Get the Frak over it already.

Well no, not really. For a start I have never even read the rules for any other Star Wars RPG and furthermore, most of the people on these forums are GMs so typically our main interest is in balance between different PCs - something to which Force power levels are very much relevant.

So stop punishing force using characters! Ive seen Hired Gun builds more unweildy than any Jedi.

Who do you think is "punishing" Force users and how? Dropping a skill point on generation seems perfectly acceptable to any player who is getting a Force die in return. And as to the current discussion, I don't see it as punishing to Force users to not start people off at the level of Obi-Wan in TCW. I don't see where you get that people are "punishing" Force users at all.

I've had problems with lightsaber wielding Jedi (because of breach) that I've had put all my big bads in cortosis armor but then on the other side the jedi are so weak and limited in the use of their powers the "magic" is gone out of the class. It really sucks if you dont want to play a saber Jedi but an alternate force user like a beast rider of Onderon, a dathomir witch or something that relies more on powers and skills than flashy sword play. You can swing your lightsaber to infinity and beyond but your ability to even use the Force is limited by a roll of the dice. Thats just not Star Wars. I will fix it with house rules though.

You can do all this, but you need characters to have more XP - whether that's a GM deciding to start them off higher or just accepting that a beginning character isn't a Dathomir witch and that they have to work their way up to achieving what we see in TCW. Either way, the best solution is to give everybody extra XP, not just boost up Force using characters because then everything goes out of balance. Jango Fett can go toe to toe with Obi Wan and the system will reflect that so long as everybody is in XP balance. Start doing things like letting beginning characters reliably pull off the upper limits of their Force powers, and you have a problem.

What he said.

The reason my Force Ratings are as high as they are is that the number I look at is 'what is the average number of Light Side Pips this character can expect to roll?'

I do not care about 'what is the maximum number of pips this character can roll.'

That is, if you roll this character's Force Dice 100 times, how many can they expect to use on average?

That's why my numbers are as high as they are. I care about how reliable the powers are, not that once in a blue moon God loves me roll.

My response to you was already based on average rolls. As I wrote and emphasized, your Force Rating 5 as a "minimum for council membership" could enable that character to reliably hurl four YT-1300's at people. You're starting them WAY above normal PC levels. What they can do with that "once in a blue moon roll" is much more again. A player could never normally reach these levels. They would not only have to expend a huge amount of XP, but they would have to have an absurd level of mono-focus on just buying up the abilities to do this to the point that without GM-favouritism you would not expect them to survive because they would be so weak in other areas. It's never suggested that a member of the Jedi council can reliably pull off stunts like this so why do you pick such high numbers for your characters? Why on Earth do you just state that FR5 is the minimum for council membership, where does that number come from? It's not based on any canon source.

This boils down to perspective.

For some XP is a rank thing, which kind of makes sense. More XP = more powerful. I'm with you - not my perspective, but people are different. I am however not with you on the fact that FR is a deciding factor in what kind of "rank" you have within the Jedi Order. I get it, it's a simple way to look at it and sure the EotE beta did have a silly table listing force ratings (which stopped at 7 I believe, 7 being the max), but I think it's too deterministic and puts too much focus on force rating (both capping it and tying "levels" and "ranks" to a number signifying connection/strength/mastery/innate talent/sensitivity to the of force). There are many other things that are important, I'd say as much if not more so than innate force strength, it's also knowledge, experience, insight, wisdom, intelligence - Anakin got on the council, but he wasn't recognised as a master, even if he was probably more powerful than many of the masters on the council. He lacked basic wisdom, intelligence and insight...

So, I think FR is relevant, but I also think XP (if you want to put it down to numerics) should matter at least as much, if not more... that is, if you really want levels, because that's basically what these things are turned into when they become defining and qualifying factors, you're adding levels to the game. Kind of like in a computer game.

I get the rationale though.

As for the balance argument, that someone feels balancing the system is "punishing" Jedi characters. I disagree, there is no punishment in being given something special in exchange for something else, or do you consider yourself punished whenever you make a trade? This whole idea that this is anything related to "punishment" is a misconception of grandiose proportions. It's neither that nor nerfing, it's balancing. If you want your forcies to be more badass, give them more XP or add career skills if you really think it's so "unfair." I'd never do that, forcies have so many things going for them that I'd be really surprised if any of my players would make a comment about "punishment" or somesuch nonsense...

Uhm, swinging lightsabers also requires rolling dice. Different dice sure, but still dice are rolled. In all SWRPGs force powers have been dependant upon rolling, except maybe some in Saga... with it's silly suite of force powers usable once per encounter unless [insert exception to the rule]. I don't see the point of the argument, nor the removal of the magic... just the removal of the TFU silliness.

I'll never understand why folks place the characters from a story on some pedestal in the sky. He's Luke frakin Skywalker he has to be force rating one billion!!!!one Or it's Darth Vader he has 11ty gajillion XP!!!!! Baring the Silly EU shenanigans of author one-upsmanship we don't have examples of these super power levels. The most important power all of these characters have is the power of plot. They get the best rolls whenever it would be the coolest. If a knight really had a FR of 5 the clone war would have been over quickly since the Jedi could have just tossed around those giant battle towers without breaking a sweat or dropped huge boulders on the armies of battle droids. I can't think of anything in RotJ that would point to Luke having more than a FR of 1. As far as him beating Vader that falls squarely under the narrative of he's the hero and get's to win so he automatically beats Vader after a cool fight scene. So let's look at TCW. Granted I haven't watched beyond season 3, but I can't say that I've seen anything beyond FR2 to 3.

From the Darth Vader thread:

Does a midichlorian count equal power or potential power though? Anakin the boy could barely subconsciously tap some sense and enhance even though he had a higher count than Yoda. Yoda however has 900 something years of training to put what he has to good use. In FFG terms Vader has a high base stat (5), high skill (3) for a made up dice pool of YYYGG while Yoda had a lower but still high base state (4) with a really high skill (5) for a made up dice pool of YYYYG.

Yoda, Mace, Obi-wan and Anakin are the most powerful Jedi we see, they're probably the most powerful in the Galaxy. They are horrible examples to compare PCs to. There are thousands of knights that don't come close but we don't see them because they're not kewl or popular. No one wants to watch the movie about frank the swordsman who survived the battle of Toth, they want Conan the Destroyer.

The point of my rambling, half asleep post is never forget the power of plot and narrative when looking at what these characters did in a story.

So let's look at TCW. Granted I haven't watched beyond season 3, but I can't say that I've seen anything beyond FR2 to 3.

The most powerful Force usage in TCW is probably the Mortis sequence which was in Season 3 and you've seen that, so you've seen Force usage at it's most powerful. There's a couple of other examples of high force usage in later seasons (particularly the Yoda arc) but they more lean on the spooky / mystical rather than the throwing things around stuff. You do get to see Anakin pretty much lose it at the end of Season 5 which is kind of terrifying but again, it's more mercilessly hurling someone about and battering them down with his lightsabre than mighty Force usage. So that's basically my long way of agreeing with you and saying that there's nothing you've missed that would invalidate what you wrote.

Alright. Let's try this again. Youtube Vitiate on Ziost.

Then go play Force Unleashed.

Then read the EU (Now Legends).

Speaking of which, even in Disney, I do believe Vader's been shown crushing an AT AT.

So, I think FR is relevant, but I also think XP (if you want to put it down to numerics) should matter at least as much, if not more... that is, if you really want levels, because that's basically what these things are turned into when they become defining and qualifying factors, you're adding levels to the game.

Agreed, it's certainly a combination of factors. Nobody on the Council will have poor discipline or knowledge...it's their demonstrated self control and historical/social/political/technical insight that brings value. At the same time, a higher FR represents in mechanical terms the character's insight into the will of the Force, and the ability to see with clarity...IOW, to avoid using dark pips. Mechanically, to reliably "see with clarity" requires more than a couple FR.

EU, not applicable

EU, not applicable

EU, not applicable

Haven't seen that one, can you point me to it?

The main point I have is that the game does a good job of modeling canon. If you want every force user to be OMGWTFBBQ that's cool, but not within the scope of this game by default. It's like asking why your level 1 DnD character isn't defeating the ancient dragon like in the cool artwork. You have start a character at high levels or with a crap-ton of XP in FFG terms if thats what you are looking for.

I get that there are these great stories out there of super-force feats and it would be great to play that, and you can, you just have to give everyone extra XP then re-model the opponents for the challenge.

SWTOR = not canon (not even legends).

TFU = not canon.

Legends = not canon (until referenced in new canon).

Vader avoids being crushed by an AT-ST look alike in Rebels, spoiler there, oops. And yes, he does topple a AT-AT in one of the new marvel series', doesn't need incredible FR for that though, 4 should do it.

Vitiate may have a high FR, but there's no reason to put a number to it, and there's no reason for that number if one is picked, to be higher than 5 or 6, the core of the matter is the power he's using, not his FR. Luckily there's more to force users than force rating.

So, reference those sources as much as you'd like, it doesn't really strengthen your argument from my point of view, you're referencing outliers in Vitiate and Marek. Marek is a computer game hero more than a Star Wars hero, Vitiate is plot device to keep people playing SWTOR, rather than a villain in need of stats. In neither characters' cases do we have to assume an incredibly high FR, by which I mean above 6... very well improved force powers, sure, cool and powerful and dangerous galaxy impacting force powers, sure... but I'd disagree with your guesstimations on FR for these. It seems arbitrary and slightly like powermongering.

Disclaimer: I'm not telling you how to run your game, you do as you please I hope and expect. I can see the game working around such a power perspective, but I'm quite happy that's not how the game is designed by default.

SWTOR = not canon (not even legends).

TFU = not canon.

Legends = not canon (until referenced in new canon).

Vader avoids being crushed by an AT-ST look alike in Rebels, spoiler there, oops. And yes, he does topple a AT-AT in one of the new marvel series', doesn't need incredible FR for that though, 4 should do it.

Vitiate may have a high FR, but there's no reason to put a number to it, and there's no reason for that number if one is picked, to be higher than 5 or 6, the core of the matter is the power he's using, not his FR. Luckily there's more to force users than force rating.

So, reference those sources as much as you'd like, it doesn't really strengthen your argument from my point of view, you're referencing outliers in Vitiate and Marek. Marek is a computer game hero more than a Star Wars hero, Vitiate is plot device to keep people playing SWTOR, rather than a villain in need of stats. In neither characters' cases do we have to assume an incredibly high FR, by which I mean above 6... very well improved force powers, sure, cool and powerful and dangerous galaxy impacting force powers, sure... but I'd disagree with your guesstimations on FR for these. It seems arbitrary and slightly like powermongering.

Disclaimer: I'm not telling you how to run your game, you do as you please I hope and expect. I can see the game working around such a power perspective, but I'm quite happy that's not how the game is designed by default.

Agreed, NPCs, especially major ones like those are best left with minimal stats and manifest as fleeting encounters or just plain effects.

Start insisting every powerful NPC be statted proper and we'll just end up with applicable stats for things like "Sever force" and anyone around in the old days can tell you why that's a bad bad bad bad thing.

Alright. Let's try this again. Youtube Vitiate on Ziost.

Then go play Force Unleashed.

Then read the EU (Now Legends).

Speaking of which, even in Disney, I do believe Vader's been shown crushing an AT AT.

I've no idea what I just watched. Someone killing all life on a planet with the Force? Anyway, none of this matches up with what we see in the canon sources. You can do it if you want, of course, but it's not the official setting so should not be used to benchmark things in the official setting. Vader hasn't crushed an AT-AT in canon. You might be thinking of where Han Solo in a stolen AT-AT tried to tread on Vader and Vader managed to hold the foot from descending (with effort). So a pretty big difference from what you describe. He also lifted the wreckage of a couple of Scout Walkers off himself in the latest Rebels episode. (I hope that's not a spoiler for anyone - it's a minor detail and the episode has been out for a while).

Honestly, I think the "Jedi aren't strong enough!" folks are underestimating just how far a Force Rating of 2 can go in this system, especially if you're willing to make use of those dark side pips when you really need to get a power to work.

For the most part, it's less of a Force user in this system needing to acquire outrageously high Force Ratings and more needing to spend the XP on purchasing the various upgrades for Force powers. I've built and seen built test PCs at 150 bonus XP that were devastating with the Force, with Seer and Sage being top of the list due to how quick and easy it is for them to get a second Force Rating talent for Force Rating 2 and focusing on Move or Bind, or even Influence as their "primary attack" power. And doing quite well, especially if they're willing to accept some strain and conflict to convert those dark side pips into Force points to fuel their powers. Seen one encounter that should have been a pretty brutal fight get completely shut down by one PC using Bind to lock the target in place, leaving it immobilized and using the Control Upgrade so that if the giant beastie did try to attack, it'd wind up taking 4 strain (converted to wounds since it was a Rival) and the party just walked right past it, with the only person to get attacked being a Shii-Cho Knight that just used Parry and Improved Parry to negate most of the damage and smack it with his vibro-ax for good measure.

Yeah, mouthymerc is right in that there's been a lot of whining by folks of a similar view to Angelalex242 about how "it's too expensive to become a Jedi Knight!" based upon a ridiculously bloated idea of what a Jedi Knight actually should be. And a lot of that problem was informed by a bunch of hacks in the 90's treating Luke like some kind of demi-god messiah figure who could use the Force to solve any problem. And as I mentioned, too much focus being given to the "superstars" of the Jedi Order who were either major prodigies (Luke and Anakin) or benefited from a lifetime of training (Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Yoda, Mace Windu).

Although, if said crowd of "I want my Force users to be uber-gods!" really want to "correct" what they see as a deficiency, the easiest solution is simply to go back to how the EotE Beta handled Force powers, in that all you needed was a single Force point to activate an effect, and that any upgrades you had purchased that didn't say "commit a Force die" simply triggered automatically. That way, a Force Rating of 1 goes a lot further, and Force Rating 3 is insanely potent, enough that a starting PC could just sink their XP into Move and probably slaughter anything that crossed their path with alarmingly casual ease.

Honestly, I think the "Jedi aren't strong enough!" folks are underestimating just how far a Force Rating of 2 can go in this system, especially if you're willing to make use of those dark side pips when you really need to get a power to work.

This is true. Early on in the EotE beta there was a chart included in the Force section giving a general outline of Force rating from 1 to 7. Untrained or little trained were about 1 while Force using gods like Luke and Anakin and masters were at 6 or 7. This chart was quickly and permanently dropped as the mechanics of Force use were ironed out. Force use can be done quite easily with only 1 or 2 FP. And becomes much easier and reliable at 3 or 4 FP. The utility of Force powers also give them an edge over other abilities and skills. With imaginative players they can be downright deadly. In other words it does not take a Force rating of 8 or 9 to create the characters we have seen.

And quoting sources like TOR or TFU (The Force User's wet Dream) mean very little to many here. Most draw their sources from the actual Canon not Legends stuff.

Hey, some of us prefer an EU class game. Tim Zahn and Karen Travis and all those people who wrote those books had a certain mindset. Some of us want that mindset in our games.

Just like...you can beat Final Fantasy 1 at level 30. Some people beat it at 15. You could also level up to 50. I level to 50. Because I can. And that's how I roll. Some of you minimalist types are more what I call 'low level run' people.

But don't hide behind 'canon' with me. It's useless. I consider everything Disney threw out to still be part of my canon. And that's that.

If you like the fact Mara Jade Skywalker never existed, that's your fun. But I like to her to exist, and that's my fun.

So I'm coming at this whole thread as a newbie to the FFG Star Wars games. Age of Rebellion is on its way to me right now, and I had plans on purchasing Force and Destiny. This discussion has turned into one of Jedi power and balance with the other careers, or whatever they are called in this game. I wonder, do Force users outshine other careers? Is a Jedi with the Force able to be a better "Face" then the "Face" career? Is a Jedi Knight going to mop the floor with enemies while a soldier is less effective?

I get that lots of Star Wars sources are like that. I've read some of the novels and they actually annoyed me and left a sour taste in my mouth at times. Some baddie is causing all sorts of problems that seem very difficult to solve: enter the Jedi who makes the whole problem disappear nice and neat. For me, big downer to the setting. I always wanted to read more stories were the non Force user saves the day, or saves the Jedi's from some mistake they made. Anyway, sorry if I have derailed this thread!

This discussion has turned into one of Jedi power and balance with the other careers, or whatever they are called in this game. I wonder, do Force users outshine other careers? Is a Jedi with the Force able to be a better "Face" then the "Face" career? Is a Jedi Knight going to mop the floor with enemies while a soldier is less effective?

Quite simply no. If all characters are of equal XP then they are relatively equal in ability. They will each have their strengths and weaknesses but do generally balance out. The disparity being discussed here are the varying perceptions that some have of what it constitutes to be a "Jedi". Some would ascribe much ability to them, which would mean exorbitant amounts of XP to accomplish while others take a more minimalist approach. Anyone wanting to run a game using characters from all three books can do so with little to worry about balance. You can also start character with a higher amount of XP to allow for more experienced characters. Such an option is put forth in F&D beta called the "Knight" level option. It adds an additional 150 XP after initial character generation and a larger amount of cash to start. One could extrapolate from there if they so chose to. Starting a character at a higher XP level allows this game to be tailored for every type of Star Wars fan. So every one can be happy.

Canon preachers are nothing but back bencher, fairweather fans, absent during the lean years when being a Star Wars fan wasnt "cool" and now coming out and telling everyone else, whats right, whats wrong and how to play by their rules. Well Frak you and the starfighter you rode in on. I've been a Star Wars fan since day one and saw "A new hope" first released in the late 70's in the theaters five times before it was renamed episode 4 A New Hope, so my own council will I keep on what is and what is not in my fandom. You should know there never was a canon EU distinction with the exception of the comics, and when Timothy Zahn wrote the Thrawn Trilogy Lucas himself endorsed it. This canon crap didnt really start gaining ground until the special editions and the prequels were released. I'm not making the case the "EU" was all great, some of it was, some of it was crap.
Dont get all high and mighty oh honorable canon judge because you were too lazy to take the time to read actual books like most of us did. The only difference between your opinion and a bag of dog excrement is the bag as far as I'm concerned and that goes for Disney the Megacorp too.

Heh heh. I was 10 and saw it about a dozen times in 77. Never had any interest in much of the EU books. Nothing there interested me storywise. Just seemed like rehashing of the original trilogy with the original trilogy characters with some new big baddy and his galaxy destroying weapon each time. I am a voracious reader but I always found something else more interesting than the various EU books. I read the odd thing here or there that did interest me, but overall not much enthused me. I read the early marvel comics and the later Dark Horse Legacy ones. Most of my fandom has resided in to OT. Rebels has made me nostalgic for it and, for me, has the OT flavour.

I don't begrudge people who do like the EU even if it isn't my cup of tea. Well, except maybe The Force Unleashed.

I am more than happy, though, to pillage concepts from it for my own game. I own various encyclopedias and essential guides which give me a variety of information. Plus game books from earlier systems. It is all useful for giving me ideas.

Well, it's more like the people with higher Force Ratings can afford to leave dice permanently ensconced in the 'allocate a dice to this power' powers. You can have sense up permanently, for example, and everything else like it.

GM: Hey, Yoda, do you have Sense up?

Yoda: Always have sense up, I do. Force Rating 7 I have for a reason, yes?

GM: Right. You catch the Clone Troopers about to kill you and decapitate them easily. Also, you feel the deaths of everyone less awesome then you who just died.

Canon preachers are nothing but back bencher, fairweather fans, absent during the lean years when being a Star Wars fan wasnt "cool" and now coming out and telling everyone else, whats right, whats wrong and how to play by their rules.

Er..."interesting" post. I've been a SW fan since day one as well...I was 14 and it was my first date ever...and I think the EU mostly blows. Clearly duration of fandom has nothing to do with interest in the EU.