A thought spawned by the Sideboards in X-wing thread: what if we hid upgrades in tournament play?

Here's the idea: you have to turn in a full list to the TO at start for points validation. When you sit down at the table, all your cards are placed face-down. You announce point total, place your ships, and declare pilot skill to allow for initial set up and movement, but you aren't required to reveal anything else to your opponent (not that your opponent can't figure out your pilots by looking at the ship tiles). You reveal upgrade cards once they come into play for the first time.

So for example you might reveal Veteran Instincts at start when you announce a higher-than-shown pilot skill, but don't have to reveal a Seismic Charge until you drop it, or Vader until he gets used for the first time, and so on.

This could be great fun particularly for the Scum faction, I think.

What say you?

I'm going to have to find someone to play test this. Sounds like it could be a fun twist to the game!

The pilots might as well be face up as you said the bases will reveal that anyways, and you can at least guess at what the upgrades are.

I'm not a fan of the idea, as it takes away a fundamental aspect of the game: Information. The ambiguity of one's list may or may not add a factor to the game in such a way one would change their strategy or decision-making ability, but I can see it causing rules problems or disputes such as "I had Autothrusters the whole time but they weren't face up!"

However, if someone shows up with an Interceptor and a Decimator, any knowledgeable player would be able to deduce that their opponent is most likely playing RAC/Fel. 4 B's and a Z? Gee, I wonder what that list could be! A 1300 and its complement of Z's or B's? Probably a Super Falcon list.

This idea would just add an unnecessary complication to the game.

Hiding ones lists works very well in infinity. I can see it working well here as long as everyone is honest and capable of tracking everything.

What if you covered up the pilot names, though?

It would take some effort (that might not be worth it in the long run) but it would give VI a tremendous strategic element:

You could run a PS8 Defender, who the opponent suspects is Rexler, until you show that no it was actually Vessery with VI all along.

Maybe that's not a huge game changer in that example, but on a Decimator, you could disguise Oicunn as Kenkirk, and when the opponent succeeds in blocking you, oh look, his ships take damage anyways...

The biggest problem i have with this suggestion is, as some pointed out, it only comes into play for some lists while other lists are very obvious in their composition. That means that upgrades get an additional bonus over ships without any upgrades.

So you have to ask yourself if that is really what you want or if you can create a similar effect with other rules.

I am totally behind this concept.

"Red Leader, I recognise that Interceptor as Baron Fel's by the marking, but I have never seen an Interceptor move like that, it must have had and Engine Upgrade"

or

"What is this? That shot should have killed that Y-Wing! Wait I see somethin...that bastard has welded extra hull plating to the ship!"

Also, it means you don't know which of the ships is really the most dangerous, one might be holding a cheap EPT and one might be holding Prockets. A game of double bluff that appeals to me.

As for obvious lists, well it means we might see other build than the obvious lists we currently see. If we can get people running the meta-ruling lists having to second guess themselves with the less obvious or down right wacky lists then isn't that a good thing over all?

I have considered this concept. In reality this is how battles go. I like the fog of war concept. It would be fun to play test this and see how it works. For the most part things wouldn't remain secret for too long.

They don't have to, proton rockets and bombs typically only fly once...

I love the idea, however I love the idea in a casual setting with players that I know and trust.

Half of the reason you lay out your cards at the beginning of the match and verbally announce what you're doing at any given time (i.e. "Howlrunner reroll" or "Predator" etc) is that you are openly saying that you have nothing to hide and you aren't doing anything sketchy to get away with whatever. It allows the opponent an opportunity, if they're paying attention, to monitor the situation and make sure things are going down according to the rules.

In a tournament setting? No thanks. I mean, sure, with the regulars I go up against and have history with, but that moves back into the realm of playing with people I know and trust. In a tournament people are playing to win, and we see threads popping up on here all the time with people experiencing shady stuff happening even WITH all of your cards out in the open.

Bad apple spoiling the bunch? Maybe. Or maybe I've had bad experiences playing games in the past with those who take any advantage they can to win, regardless of how serious or casual the game may be.

The point is I play X-Wing to have fun, and while this adds a really awesome unknown element, I would only trust those I keep close to me to adhere to the rules of the game despite the fact that I'm not monitoring their adherence to those rules.

On a side note, and maybe someone above me already said this, I think it would be cool to have all cards face down, but when you correctly guess the pilot or upgrade, they flip it face up.

As has been said, there's no point hiding pilots. Bases reveal them, and you'd have to reveal them all anyway during the first move.

Hiding upgrades sounds interesting.

On a side note, and maybe someone above me already said this, I think it would be cool to have all cards face down, but when you correctly guess the pilot or upgrade, they flip it face up.

Well, that was what I meant initially -- as soon as an upgrade or pilot ability is used, it gets flipped face up. So the first time Autothrusters goes off, or the first time you use Gunner or another crew, or when a crit doesn't go through on Soontir because he has a Shield Upgrade, you have to reveal that ability by flipping the card face up. It's a bluff initially -- you don't know what's there but can guess -- but the bluff has to be revealed in order to use the ability.

Examples:

P1: "Why are you rolling four green dice for that Interceptor? It's at Range 2."

P2: *flips card* "Stealth Device"

or

P1: "Ha, two hits and a crit to your Interceptor's two Evades! Take one crit!"

P2: *flips card* "Nope, Shield Upgrade."

Unused abilities (e.g. "I didn't use Inertial Dampeners this game") could either stay face down to stay secret for the next round, or you could have a rule that anything unused is flipped face up at the end of the game so the opponent can verify list legality.

I too like this idea since it portrays a more thematic scene. You go into a dogfight and all you know is the ship class and that's it. You know what it's capable of but not what is actually installed on the ship. As far as pilots go yeah you'll need those face up. I think the facedown rule could be optional in tournaments. Like what has been mentioned, certain lists you pretty much know what they will take so why not leave it to the discretion of the player? They can choose to hide their upgrades if they want. However if they choose to do so the forgiveness of not revealing a card will go down dramatically imo. "Oh you kept your cards facedown? What's that you forgot to use adv sensors? Well I guess you should have put them face up to remember." That's really the only problem I see with it is people forgetting to use cards. Other than that tho I like it.

or when a crit doesn't go through on Soontir because he has a Shield Upgrade

Technically, you'd have to reveal that upgrade the first time you were hit, period. Since the first hit would strip a shield instead of giving you a damage card even if it wasn't a crit, and you can't choose to let the hit pass through your shields.

Although, on a ship that actually has shields without the Upgrade, you could hold off revealing it until you lose your last Shield.

or when a crit doesn't go through on Soontir because he has a Shield Upgrade

Technically, you'd have to reveal that upgrade the first time you were hit, period. Since the first hit would strip a shield instead of giving you a damage card even if it wasn't a crit, and you can't choose to let the hit pass through your shields.

Although, on a ship that actually has shields without the Upgrade, you could hold off revealing it until you lose your last Shield.

Exactly, just using it to illustrate a point.

I do quite like the thought of bluffing/not knowing completely what your opponent has equipped to his ships.

An interesting idea for sure.

As for the side board thing and using this idea at a tourney, Im not keen for reasons listed above

However having the side board option could work if the upgrade cards are only hidden until you both are ready to start deploying your ships. All cards should be face up at this point.

We do this at my store all the time. We only turn upgrades face up, when they are used. It's a lot of fun.

Hidden cards can be lots of fun indeed, but not in competitive matches where info. about the enemy is crucial.

Tournaments have scouting problems. It sounds like a very fun variant though.

We do this at my store all the time. We only turn upgrades face up, when they are used. It's a lot of fun.

You could also see at the end of the game which upgrades turned out to be wasted points, too, if you never used them.

My old play group in Wisconsin frequently mixes rules variants in on X-Wing night throughout the course of each month.

Something like this would be right up their alley. Great idea for mixing things up!

I feel like this would be really useful as an upgrade card. "Sensor Blocker" our sobering. A one point modification that allows you to keep your cards face down until you use them. Would be most valuable with missiles and bombs, keeping people guessing about where your secondary blinds spot is. And by giving it a cost, the issue of it advantaging some lists more than others goes away.

Not right now because for one thing is that point spent is also used to determine the initiative. A so called sideboard (which should only be used in card games)

I think it might help to be able to swap upgrades like switching out modifications or moving a proton rocket from a TIE Advance to a TIE defender in the same list as long as all the upgrades that are used in one match from the tournament are used in the rest.

This would add an annoying luck based element to games. Might be fun in a casual epic game where you'd fly around blank bases until they got within range 3 of another small/large ship and range 5 of an epic ship.

Maybe the Enhanced Scopes upgrade could extend your view range in addition to its effect.