1. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

2. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

3. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

Lets stop claiming this as fact. Its worked well for other miniature-based games, Warmachine/Hordes being the biggest example.

If you are refering to the MK2 packs released with thier change over to thier second rules editions, those absolutely were not an expansion. You were rebuying the rules for your models because the old rules were being made obsolete. You could not play your models any longer without buying that pack.

Yeah, but I really wish FFG had included C3PO in a different expansion, just so The packaging issue didn't come up on the forums so much. But iirc the Epic ships hit around the time of Rebel Aces and Wave 4, which only leaves the B-Wing as a ship to include him with. I just don't see old Goldenrod being too happy in the back seat of a starfighter.

It's business pure and simple...they make money hand over fist under the current model...why on the emperors green earth would they take a loss that is wholly unnecessary?

Why are you so quick to advocate for the company? Do you have a vested interest in their profit margin?

FFG wouldn't go under, the game would not cease to flourish, the sky would not fall if they offered card only expansions. We, the customers would benefit. FFG would continue to flourish, although possibly with a small reduction in it's profits.

And so long as the game remains profitable for them to produce, then who cares if their profits take a hit? I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be much of a hit at all.

I certainly don't care that FFG would take a hit. So long as I profit out of the deal, and FFG continues to remain in the black (and card only expansions aren't going to put the company in the red) then I couldn't care less.

Why should I? They aren't a charity and as you so helpfully point out, they certainly don't care about me.

Who cares if the profits take a hit? Oh I dont know...maybe the people who make the game and decide how it will be sold and control literally every aspect of the games development, production, marketing, and sales? Those people? People like me who want to see this game as profitable as possible for as long as possible so I can keep getting new content? Those people?

"Possibly a small reduction?" Way to couch that. Please explain to me why you think it would a "small reduction?" They would be losing a substantial amount of model sales and you want the card pack to cost about the same as a single new model correct? So we are taking exponential percentages here...How is this a "small reduction?" Are there so many people waiting in the wings for card packs that their one time purchases will make this idea profitable for the entire life cycle of the game? My business sense, experience, and observation tell me no. If this were going to be a good move for them they would have done it by now or at least not straight up said "We arent doing this."

So you dont contend that this really isn't just self centered entitled complaining? Because you really just doubled down on that losing argument. People with your attitude and lack of business understanding bother me and your arguments need to be countered and questioned at every opportunity and I am happy to do so...keep making the argument the way you are making it. You wont change any minds and FFG will most certainly ignore you. You are simply making a garbage case now...well I mean, you pretty much were before but now its just blatantly obvious.

Feel free to call my motivations into question...but I dont see what kind of vested interest I could have outside of being a stakeholder, which is something everyone on this board is. FFG is a privately held company that has never had an IPO so I couldnt hold stock. I am not an employee though that would be pretty cool, are they looking for Buyers? I am, however, a stakeholder as an investor in Xwing product and I want to see the game be as profitable as possible so that they continue to have a reason to pump out new content for a game I love to play. To continue to support something it needs to be sufficiently profitable, not just profitable. I have killed quite a few vendor contracts at my job that were profitable...just not profitable enough to be worth mine or anyone else at my company's time. Its the way business in a capitalist society works...you get as much money as you can while delivering the best product you can. Then people who have no idea in regards to how your operations work and what your profit margins need to be to continue to operate get to call you greedy because you aren't giving them EXACTLY what they want in EXACTLY the way they want it. But they know what they are doing! They are the consumer (who you so helpfully admit dont care about you either!)

So it comes down to this...they have crunched the numbers and decided this type of pack wont happen. It just won't be worth it to them and they are the ones who make the decision. End of story. You can continue to wail and gnash your teeth (in fact I hope you do...watching you flail about and throw your selfish temper tantrum is mildly amusing to me)...but in the end you will still buy new stuff from them. And if you dont? Well I guess I potentially lose the entertainment value of your posts...so thats a loss to me I guess. They "extra money" they are losing from you and DarthEnderX and your compatriots pales in comparison to what, I would assume because I have no real data to go on as it hasnt been released, their market research and forecast modeling shows they would lose if this "simple brilliant idea" were implemented. Companies aren't stupid and will act in their best interests and if card packs were in their best interests they would either be released or at least on the table...sorry those interests dont intersect perfectly with yours and a few other peoples. Grow up, stop whining, and deal with it.

Yeah, but I really wish FFG had included C3PO in a different expansion, just so The packaging issue didn't come up on the forums so much. But iirc the Epic ships hit around the time of Rebel Aces and Wave 4, which only leaves the B-Wing as a ship to include him with. I just don't see old Goldenrod being too happy in the back seat of a starfighter.

They have to do something to drum up more interest in epic. Put an awesome card in that pack and you get more people who will buy the ship, decide they dont like the ship sitting around and try epic when they probably would have passed over the format completely otherwise.

How much harder do I have to derail this thread before we stop going around in circles? Don't make me do it!

How much harder do I have to derail this thread before we stop going around in circles? Don't make me do it!

Much, much harder.

I understand why people are not completely happy with the distrubution model. I remember the complaints about Advanced Sensors in Wave 3. But, those that only want to buy what they want are not the biggest demographic that FFG wants. Those that are willing to buy more than necessary are a bit more lucrative. I don't mind the distrubution model, because the models are as much as a draw as the cards. So while I don't have the Tantive IV yet, I will be getting it eventually.

Yeah, but I really wish FFG had included C3PO in a different expansion, just so The packaging issue didn't come up on the forums so much. But iirc the Epic ships hit around the time of Rebel Aces and Wave 4, which only leaves the B-Wing as a ship to include him with. I just don't see old Goldenrod being too happy in the back seat of a starfighter.

They have to do something to drum up more interest in epic. Put an awesome card in that pack and you get more people who will buy the ship, decide they dont like the ship sitting around and try epic when they probably would have passed over the format completely otherwise.

Sure, but before the Phantom started ruling the tournament meta, there wasn't much talk of 3PO, and now, even after the Phantom use has diminished considerably, many player see 3PO (C what I did there, lol) as an auto-include.

I also think if FFG had been able to launch an Imperial Huge ship along side the Rebel ships, there would've been more interest in Epic from the start. There was a real demand for capital ships long before the first announcement, but the one sided imbalance has really diminished Epic's success so far.

That's the EXACT situation of the Imperial Aces set. It comes with 2 Interceptors, and only 2 Royal Guard upgrades. Which is zero extra upgrades if you already owned a bunch of Interceptors.

You mean the first attempt at a set of its kind? A set that was testing the waters to see if it was something they could possibly do? And it wasn't perfect the first time?! And they improved on the second one?! Say it isnt so!!

KieranHalcyon, on 04 Jul 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

Yes? FFG exists to make money, not to give DarthEnderX the X-Wing fleet of his dreams. You should be grateful that they aren't going for max gouge, like many game companies wpuld/do.

Guess what? None of those game companies get money from me. FFG should be the ones grateful they aren't going for max gouge, because then they wouldn't get any money from me either.

The point is, FFG could be getting more money from me than they are. If they sold card packs, or individual cards, I would heavily use those services. I'm NOT buying ships I don't want just to get cards I want. So refusing to offer those cards any other way doesn't make them more money from me, it makes less.

Unfortunately, there are obviously enough people that WILL buy ships they don't want for cards, So that they don't need to offer them separately. Because they make more money from chumps buying extraneous ships than they would from reasonable people buying upgrades.

It basically just boils down to people with no self control or concept of value ruining it for everyone else.

So its someone else thats the problem? Man, if only those "chumps" would just stop buying stuff they want so I can get what I want...yeah its them thats the problem cause it sure as hell isnt me. How are they "ruining" it for everyone else? By buying what they want? I would wager that most people dont buy ships they arent going to use at all for a card they "need" as most people dont even play competitively. In my group I have seen ONE person do it ONCE. People buying "unneeded" ships isnt the scourge you think it is. You got any numbers that these people are skewing sales toward a distribution model that you dont like? Did FFG forsee legions of people doing this? Or are you just pulling this argument from your nether regions? Every ship I have purchased I have bought because I wanted the SHIP. I dont have much in the way of disposable income so I buy only what I think I can use...like most of us here I would wager.

Should they have a team...lets call it the "DarthEnderX ideas and submissions workgroup" that will take YOUR sole opinion into account at all times? I am sure the CEO cries himself to sleep every night knowing that YOU would buy a little bit more if he would only release it as YOU demand it. I guess we can take the opinions of chucknuckle into account as well...you guys seem to be two self entitled peas in the same (probably in your own seprate) pod.

I have said it before in multiple threads but Ill say it again for your sake. YOU might use those services heavily, chucknuckle might use those services heavily, we ALL might use those services heavily..that doesnt mean it will make the company more money which is the overreaching goal for them here. Its safe to assume that their numbers point to these ideas being losers on the profit side...which is why they are not being considered. The small amount of extra money they would get from you, me, or anyone else using these services wont offset the loss they would assume if they implemented it and that is why it isnt being done.

Yeah, but I really wish FFG had included C3PO in a different expansion, just so The packaging issue didn't come up on the forums so much. But iirc the Epic ships hit around the time of Rebel Aces and Wave 4, which only leaves the B-Wing as a ship to include him with. I just don't see old Goldenrod being too happy in the back seat of a starfighter.

They have to do something to drum up more interest in epic. Put an awesome card in that pack and you get more people who will buy the ship, decide they dont like the ship sitting around and try epic when they probably would have passed over the format completely otherwise.

Sure, but before the Phantom started ruling the tournament meta, there wasn't much talk of 3PO, and now, even after the Phantom use has diminished considerably, many player see 3PO (C what I did there, lol) as an auto-include.

I also think if FFG had been able to launch an Imperial Huge ship along side the Rebel ships, there would've been more interest in Epic from the start. There was a real demand for capital ships long before the first announcement, but the one sided imbalance has really diminished Epic's success so far.

Agreed. I dont know why they launched 2 rebel huges before an imperial. I hear it had something to do with finding the right ship...but they should have made the tantive usable by both sides (this has been the one exception I have to my general dislike of cross factioning.) The raider will breathe new life into epic (which is a ton of fun) and that is what I am looking forward to. I want to plant that raider down...having a working TIE adv (and the forum wailing that is coming with it from those who have "better distribution ideas") is just gravy to me...

You mean exactly like they did with Imperial Aces and the Royal Guard TIE.

Imperial Aces is older than Rebel Aces and the Imperial Raider. Judge them by their most recent actions, lest you mistake Apple for saints. Royal Guard TIE is also not a fix card.

Pay-to-win means that the Fat Han squad will stomp you if you don't shell out the cash for it

No, it ****ing doesn't.

Pay-to-win does not mean "Paying more = autowin". It means "Paying more = any advantage".

A guy with an army of Interceptors who only owns those Interceptor models is going to be at a large disadvantage to someone with the same army of Interceptors but who also owns a bunch of Starvipers. Does it mean that the guy with the Starvipers is automatically going to win? No. Does he have an advantage? Yes. That's still Pay-to-win.

Nothing in this game is wildly unbalanced compared to some other games, so what buying more expansions means is more options.

If you have a turret meta and you take Autothrusterless interceptors and then get crunched, it's not that you didn't pay to win, it's that you built badly. You didn't have the option to thruster your interceptors so going full interceptors was a bad decision. That being said, there are both tactics and other loadouts that allow interceptors to take on turrets. There were no Auothrusters at the US National last year, and it was won by a Lambda, a Phantom and an Interceptor.

It's perfectly possible to build good lists with a small number of expansions and no buying ships you won't use. It only becomes pay-to-win when you limit yourself to a very narrow mentality of "I'll only fly the ostenisbly top lists on the interwebs" and refuse to explore what you have.

And if you go by "Paying more = any advantage" then not only is this game pay-to-win, it is inherently pay-to-win and no card expansion will ever fix that. The guy who bought eight TIEs and killed you with an eight TIE swarm spent more than you did on those three elite X-wings.

To be frugal you've got to be creative. If you just want to copy the winners's lists then you've got to copy their spending too.

How much harder do I have to derail this thread before we stop going around in circles? Don't make me do it!

Poop in a Box didn't derail it. Try your worst.

How much harder do I have to derail this thread before we stop going around in circles? Don't make me do it!

Poop in a Box didn't derail it. Try your worst.

Well as I said before in the dozens of other post just like this. No one!

​Because X-wing Miniatures is not a card game! It is not X-wing Card Game. It never was a card game! It is a Table Top Miniatures Games.

Cards without the miniatures have 0 value therefore they are worthless, which sums up the value of the idea.

Get the idea that it is just a card game out of your head, along with jousting values as the only metric to measure the value of the ships and you might actually be able to play and enjoy X-wing better.

Grow up, stop whining, and deal with it.

I seriously don't understand your attitude.

I want a company to provide a service that would make life better for me, and the majority of customers, and you're upset because I don't want that company to make the most profit possible? Oh, poor FFG, won't someone think of their wallet?

No, of course I don't want that company to make the most profit possible. If I did, then I'd be donating my cash to them on a regular basis. I'm not. And I'm willing to bet that despite all your 'business sense' (what is that, like spider sense? Does it tingle? You goose) you're not giving them your money either. You want a service or a product for your money. Do you use your business sense to deduce which X Wing products have the highest profit margin, and only buy those products? Since you're obviously so concerned they might go under?

If you think wanting a particular product or service makes a person entitled, then you're completely delusional. I mean, you keep using that word. I'm not sure you even know what it means.

My GOD there's a lot of stockholm syndrome going on in this thread.

Make life better for you and the majority of thier customers? Not only are you being hyperbolic, but you are again ignoring what he has been repeatedly telling you.

This game being profitable for FFG, means FFG keeps making this game. It means they will keep this licence for as long as they possibly can, which has been the reason for other popular Star Wars games folding. Because the game is so profitable FFG will make ships they wouldn't normally make.

Do you think any epic ship gets made without packaging normal mode upgrades in them to bolster interest?

I do not benefit by another Star Wars game flaring and then burning out for the company to lose the licence despite the game selling well and being popular. I benefit more from the marginal increase in expense I incur to play this game as produced provided that extra expense continues to ensure the games expansion and support.

1. Yes

2. $5-$10

3. Charizard and Black Lotus

If the only way to sell epic ships is to package good upgrade cards for the xwing, may be you dont have to spend money on epic and just focus on xwing which is the one you are really selling?

I think there are a numerous different ways to make profit, there is not only one way to do it right.

I do not benefit by another Star Wars game flaring and then burning out for the company to lose the licence despite the game selling well and being popular. I benefit more from the marginal increase in expense I incur to play this game as produced provided that extra expense continues to ensure the games expansion and support.

Now who's being hyperbolic? Card packs would not be the death of X Wing. The game would continue to flourish just fine. Ask Shaky, I'm sure he can use his 'business sense' to confirm it for you. FFG package the cards the way they do not to ensure the games survival, but because it gives them some extra cream on the top.

That is an entirely unsubstantiated claim, which is pretty much your thing.

Look at the ship's packaged with upgrades that clearly increased that products demand beyond the ship itself. The Shuttle, Transport, Corvette, Raider, Starviper. All ships that were inherently unlikely to sell particularly well due to place in the game. And those are the ship's packaged with in demand upgrades clearly designed to help bolster sales.

Again do you think any epic ship actually gets made without your C-3POs or Tie Advanced title?

Star Wars games have a history of popularity followed by the rug being pulled out from under them, because while popular they were not profitable. I'm glad FFG takes measures to ensure that popularity and profitability are one in the same.

That is an entirely unsubstantiated claim

Yes, your claim that card expansions would literally be the death of X Wing is totally unsubstantiated.

I do not benefit by another Star Wars game flaring and then burning out for the company to lose the licence despite the game selling well and being popular. I benefit more from the marginal increase in expense I incur to play this game as produced provided that extra expense continues to ensure the games expansion and support.

Now who's being hyperbolic? Card packs would not be the death of X Wing. The game would continue to flourish just fine. Ask Shaky, I'm sure he can use his 'business sense' to confirm it for you. FFG package the cards the way they do not to ensure the games survival, but because it gives them some extra cream on the top.

It is your belief that card packs would do fine for FFG. FFG has determined otherwise. I would trust their understanding of the business over what fans want. FFG does their best to not completely screw us. But make no mistake, they are in it for the money. And how they do it currently is hardly terrible. It helps that they help justify my collection with beautiful models. We know that the Core and the Falcon are on pretty slim margins compared to the rest of the product.

And really, these arguements are the EXACT same made everytime FFG releases a new LCG. Someone always wants them to print a "completionist pack". They don't. Why? Because the numbers who will never buy another core set is much smaller than those that buy multiple core sets. The number of people who don't buy more ships is relatively small, apparently. And why would FFG want to stop encouraging people to buy more ships? Which is essentially what all these card pack arguements amount to.

FFG isn't perfect. But they are my prefered drug dealer.

I highlighted exactly why I believe FFG maximizing thier profits for this game is preferable to marginal savings for some players, specifically as it relates to the players benefit. I'll reiterate them for you.

Stat Wars games have a history of folding despite thier popularity. This liscence is clearly a hot commodity, only made more so by the Disney aquisition and upcoming movies. This game being more profitable then it might otherwise be ensures that FFG is inclined to hold on to the license. Unlike past companies.

The game being more profitable then it might otherwise be also ensures FFG develops and releases product they otherwise wouldn't. Again do you really think that FFG creates epic play, and even goes out of there way to design a brand-new ship with Lucasfilms, without upgrades packaged with those ships to ensure sales. Do you think they introduce a third faction without upgrades ensuring players are going to purchase into that faction, even if they may not play it. I don't think it is even a stretch to say Armada doesn't exist if they don't make a killing on X-wing.

Your retort is essentially "Not uh, they'd do just fine". Which isn't backed up by anything. Not statements to the contrary from FFG themselves and not when you look at what products have been released with upgrades designed to move additional units beyond the ship itself.

If your assertion is that card packs would literally be the end of X Wing, then you're going to have to support it with abit more than just your opinion.

1- I say that card packs would be good for customers.

2- You say that this would literally kill X Wing.

If that's your assertion, then prove it.

Look at the ship's packaged with upgrades that clearly increased that products demand beyond the ship itself. The Shuttle, Transport, Corvette, Raider, Starviper. All ships that were inherently unlikely to sell particularly well due to place in the game. And those are the ship's packaged with in demand upgrades clearly designed to help bolster sales.

Again do you think any epic ship actually gets made without your C-3POs or Tie Advanced title?

I think you would be very surprised at how many of all those ships would sell in the absence of the specific cards you're thinking of. A great many people buy ships to fit a certain number, (I always buy groups of 2 Rebels and 3 Imperial, for instance).

I also think the sort of person willing to spend $90 on a CR-90 for C3P0 is so emotionally invested in X-Wing that they would be wanting the CR-90 on it's own merits- that thing is _awesome_.

If anyone is really willing to spend $90 just to get C3P0, let me know and I'll ship you my copy. I'll be magnanimous and only charge $85.

The miniature is the best part of the pack. Punching out the cardboard is a fun tactile bonus. Then moving on the carefully sleeving the cards becomes yawn inducing. Card packs without the goodies would be dumb.

Any cards requiring cardboard wouldn't work in a card pack. That's all your bombs, missles torpedos, some turrets, cards granting actions that issue favorable tokens or induce stress. With half the deck now eliminated, what's the point.

A lot of the cost of a product is the packaging. The more varieties the companies package the less of each they produce. The less they produce the less cost savings they see by manufacturing in bulk. The more it costs them, the more it costs us. Card packs are a bad idea. Streamline it by putting the cards in with the ships and make more ships thereby reducing the cost.

If you don't want to buy it, proxy it casually and borrow from friends for tournaments. But if you can afford to go to the tournament, you can afford the ship that has the card you want to use in it. If you can't afford the ship, you can't afford the tournament and don't need the card as you can proxy in casual play. (Proxying cards feels like cheating so i dont do it. Tourney registration fees + travel costs + food & drink costs > 1 new ship.)