I think the problem here is that people think "Pay-to-win" means that paying more makes you automatically win. That's not what it means. Pay-to-win means that paying more gives you an advantage. And that is CLEARLY the case in this game. It's just a question of how egregious is it in this game. And the answer is, pretty **** egregious.

If you owned 3 TIE Advanced, and you had to pay $6 to make them perform adequately, that would be a fairly inoffensive level of pay-to-win. But FFG wants you to pay $80 instead. And that is a fairly heinous level of pay-to-win.

I think the problem here is that people think "Pay-to-win" means that paying more makes you automatically win. That's not what it means. Pay-to-win means that paying more gives you an advantage. And that is CLEARLY the case in this game. It's just a question of how egregious is it in this game. And the answer is, pretty **** egregious.

If you owned 3 TIE Advanced, and you had to pay $6 to make them perform adequately, that would be a fairly inoffensive level of pay-to-win. But FFG wants you to pay $80 instead. And that is a fairly heinous level of pay-to-win.

If the fixed TIE Advanced gave you an advantage over someone who didnt have access to it, you'd have a point. But unless the TIE Advanced is better than any non-TIE-Advanced choice for the same points, then simply having access to it doesn't give you an advantage.

The problem isn't that everyone else doesn't understand what pay-to-win means. It's that you either don't understand what pay-to-win means, or you don't understand X-wing.

1. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

2. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

3. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

Not specifically at you Funk just a statement in general.

1.Selling aces packs with redundant ships causes resentment among a portion of the player base.

2.Selling Epic ships with Standard playable "Fixes" of tournament staples causes resentment among a portion of the player base.

3. Selling more and more obscure EU ships drives away a portion of the player base (or at the very least they just wont buy them)

Im not agreeing or disagreeing with the concept, I would of course like to have card only packs, at a reasonable price (50-75% of current blister prices) but I would merely point out that for the game to remain popular in the years to come they will need to print new pilots for existing ships.

As mentioned above, eventually players will get sick of having to buy redundant ships, so maybe they just start proxying rather than buying that 5th,6th,7th x-wing they don't need. In doing so FFG gets no money rather than some money, that to me is bad business.

I t just seems shortsighted of FFG to announce that they will never investigate the possibility of Card only packs.

Whatever anyone's opinion is surely they cannot deny that this is one of the easiest, simplest and speediest ways to expand the game would be through these packs.

I've been ignoring the topic so I didn't see you respond to my post until now. You raise some fair points but I think overall they are mostly overstated.

1. You only have 2 Aces packs to go off of for your example. Their first crack at it was the Imperials with 2 new paint schemes for the Interceptors. It was also their first crack at creating a fix for ships that hadn't performed as well as they had hoped. They also learned a lot about the Aces concept at this stage and went in a slightly different direction the second time around with the Rebels. Again it was an opportunity to fix ships and get more fun pilots out there. From there FFG used that same concept for the Most Wanted Pack, repaints of existing models that they don't have to pay to have designed/sculpted along with a host of new pilots and upgrades (not to mention more fixes for existing ships).

By pretty much every account both of the Aces packs and Most Wanted pack have all been a smashing success both financially for FFG as well as with players. Any complaints I've seen from people have been standard fare pissing and moaning. Of all your examples this one is far off base with people feeling resentful. Each pack contains fantastic value.

2. Epic ships that include tournament staple upgrades available exclusively in those packs is by far your best point. I've always been a much bigger Rebel player than Imperial yet I don't own the Tantive but will purchase a Raider as soon as I possibly can. Do I wish the Blockade Runner was cheaper so I could get some crew upgrades? Sure. But it's not a huge deal to me even though I LOVE tournament play. There are so many fun lists to play that not having 3-PO really isn't that big of a deal to me. There is so much value in the Raider on the other hand that my decision on that ship is easy. Did they design the Epic ships to have things that people would want so badly they would pony up regardless of whether they wanted to play Epic or not? Absolutely. But at the same time it wasn't anything heinous. I think they learned a lesson with the Tantive though that adding another model is a huge plus value wise. Of any of the Epics it's clear to me that the Raider offers by far the most value. If people want to be mad about the Epic releases I understand but at the end of the day FFG is a for profit business who are probably going to do more sales of that ship than either of the Rebel releases. No, not everyone can afford it and that really is too bad but it's a product that people can choose to purchase or not. And I don't think the Advanced will effect the meta that radically any way.

3. EU ships. There will always be EU ships that people will complain about and not buy. There are a whole lot more people that don't care and simply enjoy the game. They were always going to hit a cap where all of the original trilogy ships would be produced and they were going to have to rely on the EU. The HWK was released in what, Wave 3? Heck, when was the last time they released an entirely new ship from the OT? Wave 4? Everything since has been either EU or a repaint of a previous release. You simply can't argue EU ships are hurting the game when pretty much everything new is EU and the game continues to explode in popularity.

In the end this is a game that people can choose to buy or not. FFG has made a great product. If people can't afford it that's too bad. Seriously. I wish I had the funds to buy all the plastic spaceships I wanted and buy in to Armada and buy in to Imperial Assault and all the other games I want to buy. But I choose to spend my money on what's more important to me. Everyone has that choice.

And back to my original point, card only packs are bad for business. People clamor for them when they don't want to spend more money on the game.

Your support of his post is more literate, but equally incoherent because you're expressing the same sense of offended entitlement.

It's really this simple: As a consumer, I would like more options when purchasing these products. So would you, in fact, and so would all players. No one actively wants to be restricted. FFG has the ability to provide me with these options. They don't provide them, because it would hurt their profit margin.

It's not being entitled to not be happy about that situation.

Accusations of entitlement tend to ring hollow from someone whose attitude paints them as someone that clearly has the disposable income to pay whatever the company asks him to pay.

I won't be able to afford a Raider if, as I expect, it comes out at GenCon. It's a big expenditure and it comes at a rotten time of year for my family. My disposable income is already stretched rather uncomfortably just to get me to the con.

Someone has said he'll try to pick one up for me as a thank-you for some work I did for him a while back, but I don't know for certain if that will materialize. My brother says he wants to get one for me as a late birthday present, but he's not going to the con and his wife just had to leave her job, so that also might not happen. Basically, if I get one before this winter it will be through someone else's generosity.

Fortunately, X-wing isn't a pay-to-win game. I can proxy the new cards I want in kitchen-table games or on Vassal, and I can build competitive lists without them. And if I truly decide I can't do without, I can see if I know someone or can find someone online who will take $10 or $15 for an X1 title and an Advanced Targeting Computer.

Imagine if, instead of being in this position, you could just buy the cards for a small price from FFG!

Don't spend too long imagining it though, you might become entitled!

Quite easy to. I can gaurentee, it isn't the nirvana that you envision.

Quite easy to. I can gaurentee, it isn't the nirvana that you envision.

And you guarantee that, how exactly? Given that the situation doesn't exist. Therefor you've never experienced it.

Quite easy to. I can gaurentee, it isn't the nirvana that you envision.

And you guarantee that, how exactly? Given that the situation doesn't exist. Therefor you've never experienced it.

Sliders from an alternate dimension where the Japanese won the cold war and FFG makes card only expansions.

Sliders from an alternate dimension where the Japanese won the cold war and FFG makes card only expansions.

Wow, Japan won the cold war? Did they still lose WW2? Cause that is an amazing comeback if so.

1. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

2. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

3. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

Lets stop claiming this as fact. Its worked well for other miniature-based games, Warmachine/Hordes being the biggest example.

1. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

2. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

3. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

Lets stop claiming this as fact. Its worked well for other miniature-based games, Warmachine/Hordes being the biggest example.

There's a bit of a difference in content though. Nothing you get in a warjack box is useable for your infantry and vice versa. There are no universal upgrades. FFG has the ability, and uses it extensively, to package upgrades with ships to make the whole thing more attractive and boost sales. They could absolutely make more money from the cards if they offered them for sale separately, but then their model sales would drop and overall that would hurt them more than help them.

I have to say though, that's no good reason to support the practice. I'm not in the habit of propping companies up out of the kindness of my heart.

Sliders from an alternate dimension where the Japanese won the cold war and FFG makes card only expansions.

Wow, Japan won the cold war? Did they still lose WW2? Cause that is an amazing comeback if so.

Interestingly, yes! The rebuilding of Japan was a bit better in that universe and American involvement in Vietnam was a bit longer, with a prolonged American recession from 1972-1985.

As a result of this, President Mondale sold a few of our super carriers to the Japanese Self Defense Force, and let them take the lead on containing the Soviet Union.

The Japanese popularization of the internet, and resulting efficiency boom spread to the US, causing a wave of urbanization and a resulting bust in oil prices. This led to a collapse in the Soviet economy and a loosening of their grip on their empire.

In 1995, Putin lead a KGB coup to restore the Party to it's central place in the Russian policy apparatus. The coup failed and Japan is looking very smug about why Putin is missing...

Sliders from an alternate dimension where the Japanese won the cold war and FFG makes card only expansions.

Wow, Japan won the cold war? Did they still lose WW2? Cause that is an amazing comeback if so.

Interestingly, yes! The rebuilding of Japan was a bit better in that universe and American involvement in Vietnam was a bit longer, with a prolonged American recession from 1972-1985.

As a result of this, President Mondale sold a few of our super carriers to the Japanese Self Defense Force, and let them take the lead on containing the Soviet Union.

The Japanese popularization of the internet, and resulting efficiency boom spread to the US, causing a wave of urbanization and a resulting bust in oil prices. This led to a collapse in the Soviet economy and a loosening of their grip on their empire.

In 1995, Putin lead a KGB coup to restore the Party to it's central place in the Russian policy apparatus. The coup failed and Japan is looking very smug about why Putin is missing...

Later in 1999, Earth was secretly invaded by an alien race known as the X-ists, but they were defeated by J.R. "Bob" Dobbs and his Church of the SubGenius.

1. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

2. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

3. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

Lets stop claiming this as fact. Its worked well for other miniature-based games, Warmachine/Hordes being the biggest example.

It's never been a good idea from a business standpoint and the game is now more popular than ever. I'm not missing anything in this equation.

In this age of mainstream nerdism, they can sell whatever they want, quite literally. The guys who make Cards Against Humanity recently sold **** in a box and actually got plenty of pre-sales. This is after they told people that all that was in the box was a piece of ****.

Literally.

So I don't buy into any of this guff about blah blah is bad for bizz. You can LITERALLY sell **** in a box! No one gives a **** these days.

1. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

2. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

3. Selling card only expansions is a bad business idea and would be a detriment to FFG.

Lets stop claiming this as fact. Its worked well for other miniature-based games, Warmachine/Hordes being the biggest example.

There's a bit of a difference in content though. Nothing you get in a warjack box is useable for your infantry and vice versa. There are no universal upgrades. FFG has the ability, and uses it extensively, to package upgrades with ships to make the whole thing more attractive and boost sales. They could absolutely make more money from the cards if they offered them for sale separately, but then their model sales would drop and overall that would hurt them more than help them.

I have to say though, that's no good reason to support the practice. I'm not in the habit of propping companies up out of the kindness of my heart.

They don't need your kindness nor do they want it...all they are interested in is your money...not your happiness, not your contentment and they certainly aren't out to satisfy the sense of self centered entitlement your post clearly displays...

It's business pure and simple...they make money hand over fist under the current model...why on the emperors green earth would they take a loss that is wholly unnecessary? To make chucknuckle happy? Sorry you and your compatriots aren't worth it...

It's business pure and simple...they make money hand over fist under the current model...why on the emperors green earth would they take a loss that is wholly unnecessary?

Why are you so quick to advocate for the company? Do you have a vested interest in their profit margin?

FFG wouldn't go under, the game would not cease to flourish, the sky would not fall if they offered card only expansions. We, the customers would benefit. FFG would continue to flourish, although possibly with a small reduction in it's profits.

And so long as the game remains profitable for them to produce, then who cares if their profits take a hit? I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be much of a hit at all.

I certainly don't care that FFG would take a hit. So long as I profit out of the deal, and FFG continues to remain in the black (and card only expansions aren't going to put the company in the red) then I couldn't care less.

Why should I? They aren't a charity and as you so helpfully point out, they certainly don't care about me.

It's business pure and simple...they make money hand over fist under the current model...why on the emperors green earth would they take a loss that is wholly unnecessary?

Why are you so quick to advocate for the company? Do you have a vested interest in their profit margin?FFG wouldn't go under, the game would not cease to flourish, the sky would not fall if they offered card only expansions. We, the customers would benefit. FFG would continue to flourish, although possibly with a small reduction in it's profits.And so long as the game remains profitable for them to produce, then who cares if their profits take a hit? I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be much of a hit at all.I certainly don't care that FFG would take a hit. So long as I profit out of the deal, and FFG continues to remain in the black (and card only expansions aren't going to put the company in the red) then I couldn't care less.Why should I? They aren't a charity and as you so helpfully point out, they certainly don't care about me.

And this is why these threads always turn into a joke.

If C3PO is the best card for the Millennium Falcon, then its best place is in the box of the Falcon. The Rebel Aces box came with so many cards that were not useful for the ships in the box itself that the mind boggles - redundant Chardaan Refits, redundant A-Wing Test Pilot cards, redundant B-Wing E2 cards, even a redundant Enhanced Scopes, which is not the most useful upgrade anyway. It did not contain any cannons, nor Advanced Sensors, nor Stay on Target - just to name a few that would have been very useful. The A-Wing expansion should just have 1 Chardaan Refit - that would be friendly to the casual player.

They hadn't come up with it at the time of the Falcon. Rebel Aces has redundant copies because the old expansions don't have them: it'd grate quite heavily if you had to buy a Rebel Aces for every Chaardan A-wing you wanted to fly when you'd already bought a ton of A-wings.

And if FFG were going for maximum gouge, that's exactly what they'd do. They're no charity but they could easily have put one copy of Autothrusters in the StarViper, one copy of TIE/x1 in the Raider, one copy of each Illicit in the Aggressor, one B-wing/E2 and one Chaardan Refit in Rebel Aces and refused to change their minds on the Scum dial issue. And they didn't. They're not going to wildly restructure their business model to remove all the upgrade cards but likewise they're not trying to maximise buying ships for cards.

Or just let go of the cards altogether, since all the text on them can be found for free.

I'd have no issue with ship expansions being the ship models, and upgrades being done in a manner those doesn't require you to have enough copies of this particular little card. Lots of questions around implementation though.

I doubt they'd release new content in card packs, and definitely not pilots (who come with associated tokens) but I could see "catch-up" card packs for upgrades. Say, with each Wave they release a pack with three copies each of each of the last wave's general upgrades (you wouldn't put IG-2000 in for example) for about a fiver. Release them via FFG's in-house Print on Demand service. That'd be financially viable, the market may be fairly small but they're Print on Demand so it doesn't matter as much and it'd probably have minimal effect on ship sales. If it hurts their sales more than they make from selling the packs they can simply stop, and if not it'll make a little more money, be a good PR move and stop people gripping about having to buy Vipers they don't want.

And if FFG were going for maximum gouge, that's exactly what they'd do. They're no charity but they could easily have put one copy of Autothrusters in the StarViper, one copy of TIE/x1 in the Raider, one copy of each Illicit in the Aggressor, one B-wing/E2 and one Chaardan Refit in Rebel Aces and refused to change their minds on the Scum dial issue. And they didn't.

So your argument is "It's okay that they're screwing you, because they COULD be screwing you even HARDER."

it'd grate quite heavily if you had to buy a Rebel Aces for every Chaardan A-wing you wanted to fly when you'd already bought a ton of A-wings.

You mean exactly like they did with Imperial Aces and the Royal Guard TIE.

And if FFG were going for maximum gouge, that's exactly what they'd do. They're no charity but they could easily have put one copy of Autothrusters in the StarViper, one copy of TIE/x1 in the Raider, one copy of each Illicit in the Aggressor, one B-wing/E2 and one Chaardan Refit in Rebel Aces and refused to change their minds on the Scum dial issue. And they didn't.

So your argument is "It's okay that they're screwing you, because they COULD be screwing you even HARDER."

Yes? FFG exists to make money, not to give DarthEnderX the X-Wing fleet of his dreams. You should be grateful that they aren't going for max gouge, like many game companies wpuld/do.

As for attractive cards being in the Epic ship packs - good. I like Epic but I would much rather pay 100$ for a Raider if I know I'm getting cards/ships that I can use in normal games, since I play those decidedly more often than Epic games.

Let's look at what squads you can't play without buying the Corvette

-Heaver's Fat Han, or something derived from his build.

You still have literally dozens of other options for equally competitive builds. Pay-to-win means that the Fat Han squad will stomp you if you don't shell out the cash for it, but this is simply false.

Sorry for typos, I'm checking the forums on my phone, in between reveling over my FFG stock profits and templing my fingers menacingly.

Pretty lame attempt at a false equivalency there, considering that IA came with two Inrerceptors, not two different ships.

It's a perfect equivalency. The Rebel Aces comes with enough Refits to outfit the A-Wing that it comes with, plus two more besides.

His remark was basically "Wouldn't it suck if Rebel Aces didn't come with extra Refits if you already owned a bunch of A-Wings?"

That's the EXACT situation of the Imperial Aces set. It comes with 2 Interceptors, and only 2 Royal Guard upgrades. Which is zero extra upgrades if you already owned a bunch of Interceptors.

The C3P0 thing is kind of funny to since I bought a Tantive IV because I wanted to play Epic, and I've never used the C3PO card. Then you've got all these guys that think they NEED it but wont buy the Tantive for it.

The C3P0 thing is kind of funny to since I bought a Tantive IV because I wanted to play Epic, and I've never used the C3PO card. Then you've got all these guys that think they NEED it but wont buy the Tantive for it.

It's kinda funny how easily they dismiss the fact that you get an EPIC SHIP with the purchase eh? They are so focused on the one card for their "super competitive" build that they discount pretty much everything else that comes in the box....

But hey FFG should lose money so they get what they want the way they want....because God darn it they are the customer and their singular need should take absolute precedence.