People are willing to spend $1 on the card alone, but will pay $15 to get that card + a nice plastic model.

I won't though if that plastic model isn't one I'm planning on using.

I don't play Rebels, so I'd never pay $30 for Rebel Aces or the YT-2400. But I'd pay a dollar for Proton Rockets.

So for FFG, it becomes a question of, do they make more money on people buying ships they don't want to get the cards they need, then they lose on people not being able to buy just the cards they want and refusing to buy the ships they don't want just to get them.

I assume FFGs has crunched the numbers and come to the conclusion that the former is the case.

Which just tells me that the number of people who don't care about their money outweighs the number of us that do to the point that it's worth it to FFGs to screw us.

You forgot the other important group. Those who want unhealthy amounts of ships.

Seriously, why do I need a full squadron of Interceptors!!!!!

This entire thread is a whole lot of First World Problems. How do I spend this extra money I have laying around? HOW?! This big, bad company is forcing me to spend more money on a GAME where I move little plastic ships around, roll dice, and make pew pew sounds for hours on end. The horror! THE HORROR!

At the end of the day this is a game and a hobby. Nothing more and nothing less. I don't race Lamborghinis or collect Picassos because I have neither the time nor the money to do so. If this hobby is too expensive, don't do it.

Oh, look: it's That Guy. Welcome to the conversation, That Guy!

You mean Totally Right Guy?

No, I mean Doesn't Understand The Difference Between "Offers For Sale" and "Forces Customers To Buy" Guy. Or possibly Doesn't Understand There Are No Must-Have Cards Guy. Or even Low Post Count And Has Nothing But Ngative Things To Say Guy.

And you must be overly pedantic guy?

How about we try this on for size instead:

FFG deliberately bundles attractive cards with expensive ships in order to boost the sales of those ships.

This does not make me a happy customer. In fact, it does not make ANY customers happy. Customers would prefer to have a greater range of choice.

There. Now we've stepped away from your trigger words like 'force' and 'must have'. We've still said the same thing, of course, but hopefully now we can stop arguing about the semantics of it. Now we just have to wait for "Needs-To-Be-Contrary-For-The-Sake-Of-It" guy to make an appearance, and tell us how he actually prefers to have less choice, and how much happier he is that this is the case.

Having said all that: if and when they do a 2.0 version of this game, I expect a card pack for each faction, that will bring them up to the new ruleset. They'd probably only break even on it- maybe even lose a bit of money. They will do the thing that causes us to do the least amount of grumbling while still letting them stay in business.

Card packs are obscenely cheap to manufacture. The profit margin on them is enormous.

But FFG gets the best of both worlds by requiring a model sale to go with the card sale, by bundling the cards and the models together.

Unfortunately, this won't happen. FFG is too greedy, and would rather force people to buy $80+ expansions to get some must have cards.

Grow up. FFG hasn't forced anybody to do anything, except decide for themselves whether it's worth it to buy each expansion.

Other than hiding a few obscenely powerful cards in expensive expansion packs for models that aren't actually usable in competitive play, sure.

Which cards? All the standard compatible cards in the huge ships are fairly bog standard when it comes to power. It's the stacking that makes the Fat Falcon what it is, and it's about to get brutalised by Conner Net.

There. Now we've stepped away from your trigger words like 'force' and 'must have'. We've still said the same thing, of course, but hopefully now we can stop arguing about the semantics of it. Now we just have to wait for "Needs-To-Be-Contrary-For-The-Sake-Of-It" guy to make an appearance, and tell us how he actually prefers to have less choice, and how much happier he is that this is the case.

True, they could not put standard compatible cards in Epic ships and make everything that comes with them Huge Ship Only. However, that wouldn't mean TIE/x1, C-3PO, R3-A2, Palpatine, Tarn Mison, Wes Janson and the like would be available in little packs. It'd mean they wouldn't exist. And if they put those cards in Aces packs, they'd be taking the space of cards in those packs: pushing the transport's astromechs and X-wing pilots into Rebel Aces means pushing the B-wing content out. No Keyan, no Nera. And if you put those in the next pack a year or so down the line it pushes stuff out of that pack.

You wouldn't get more choice. You'd get the same purchase choice (buy big ship or don't) but your building choices would go down because there'd be fewer cards.

Card packs are obscenely cheap to manufacture. The profit margin on them is enormous.

Design costs. You'd got to design, playtest, refine, playtest, over and over, especially with X-Wing. The Cloak mechanic went through 12 iterations before they were happy with it, and even then it derped out on the metagame. Yes, they could churn out pilot cards en masse to get enough for a card pack the average consumer would buy (a Netrunner monthly pack has 60 cards (3 copies of 20 unique cards) for about £10) but then you lose balance. It'd turn into a WizKids game.

It just seems shortsighted of FFG to announce that they will never investigate the possibility of Card only packs.

Whatever anyone's opinion is surely they cannot deny that this is one of the easiest, simplest and speediest ways to expand the game would be through these packs.

With all due respect, I think their market analysts probably have looked at it, and they're somewhat more qualified and informed than the average forummer.

Ultimately, they have said they won't do it. If this is another bash FFG thread, then maybe someone should just start one with an appropriate title.

Having said all that: if and when they do a 2.0 version of this game, I expect a card pack for each faction, that will bring them up to the new ruleset. They'd probably only break even on it- maybe even lose a bit of money. They will do the thing that causes us to do the least amount of grumbling while still letting them stay in business.

Card packs are obscenely cheap to manufacture. The profit margin on them is enormous.

But FFG gets the best of both worlds by requiring a model sale to go with the card sale, by bundling the cards and the models together.

Cheap to manufacture, but expensive to produce. If you think of the cards as the "software" of the game, then you can understand why they're charging more than the printing cost for those card packs. Alex Davies don't work free.

The cat and the wolf were fun!

To the OP; Your second expired

I would like to see card packs, be a nice way to update the FAQ'ed cards.

Yes I know i can look at the faq for free but Id rather have it on the card on the table in front of me.

Fair enough that they wouldn't release new content in card pack form, R&D costs n'all but re-releasing old cards that have been updated I think NEEDS to happen.

And you must be overly pedantic guy?

How about we try this on for size instead:

FFG deliberately bundles attractive cards with expensive ships in order to boost the sales of those ships.

This does not make me a happy customer...

I see. The alternatives, of course, are to bundle unattractive cards with ships, or to bundle no cards at all. Which of those would make you happier?

Now we've stepped away from your trigger words like 'force' and 'must have'. We've still said the same thing, of course, but hopefully now we can stop arguing about the semantics of it. Now we just have to wait for "Needs-To-Be-Contrary-For-The-Sake-Of-It" guy to make an appearance, and tell us how he actually prefers to have less choice, and how much happier he is that this is the case.

The person advocating for less choice is you.

There. Now we've stepped away from your trigger words like 'force' and 'must have'. We've still said the same thing, of course, but hopefully now we can stop arguing about the semantics of it. Now we just have to wait for "Needs-To-Be-Contrary-For-The-Sake-Of-It" guy to make an appearance, and tell us how he actually prefers to have less choice, and how much happier he is that this is the case.

True, they could not put standard compatible cards in Epic ships and make everything that comes with them Huge Ship Only. However, that wouldn't mean TIE/x1, C-3PO, R3-A2, Palpatine, Tarn Mison, Wes Janson and the like would be available in little packs. It'd mean they wouldn't exist. And if they put those cards in Aces packs, they'd be taking the space of cards in those packs: pushing the transport's astromechs and X-wing pilots into Rebel Aces means pushing the B-wing content out. No Keyan, no Nera. And if you put those in the next pack a year or so down the line it pushes stuff out of that pack.

You wouldn't get more choice. You'd get the same purchase choice (buy big ship or don't) but your building choices would go down because there'd be fewer cards.

Imagine if, instead, you could buy a ship with NO cards, and then buy packs of cards to go with them. So you could just buy (and pay for) the content you want. Hell, in this digital age you could even order custom card packs. I'll take four Autothrusters and four Engine Upgrades, please! Imagine being able to buy another TIE fighter without paying for another copy of all those unique pilots that you can't use, or being able to buy an autothruster without having to pay for that awful Starviper model?

Sure, it'd cut into FFGs model sales, and I'm certain that would be the worse for them (or else they'd already be doing this) but I'm not so generous that I'm happy to support them at a cost to myself. As a consumer, I want more choices. I want to be able to pay for ONLY the content I want. I don't think that's unreasonable.

At the end of the day we're not talking serious money here. I'm not genuinely upset about it. It's just a bit of an obvious money grab on their part, and it kind of gets up my nose when the FFG diehards leap to defend the practice. Some guy back on page one has the temerity to say he doesn't like how they bundle the cards, and people start jumping on him, saying "Oh, here's THAT guy" and "Hurr, no one's MAKING you do anything!". Like, no **** guys. You know what he's trying to say, so stop being a bunch of dicks about it and let's try to have a discussion about it.

Edit: Double post

I would like to see card packs, be a nice way to update the FAQ'ed cards.

Yes I know i can look at the faq for free but Id rather have it on the card on the table in front of me.

A lot of times though, that's not even really an option. Some of the errata is way longer than what would fit on a card.

Imagine if, instead, you could buy a ship with NO cards, and then buy packs of cards to go with them. So you could just buy (and pay for) the content you want. Hell, in this digital age you could even order custom card packs. I'll take four Autothrusters and four Engine Upgrades, please! Imagine being able to buy another TIE fighter without paying for another copy of all those unique pilots that you can't use, or being able to buy an autothruster without having to pay for that awful Starviper model?

*sniff* I'm imagining it. And it's beautiful...

Imagine if, instead, you could buy a ship with NO cards, and then buy packs of cards to go with them. So you could just buy (and pay for) the content you want. Hell, in this digital age you could even order custom card packs. I'll take four Autothrusters and four Engine Upgrades, please! Imagine being able to buy another TIE fighter without paying for another copy of all those unique pilots that you can't use, or being able to buy an autothruster without having to pay for that awful Starviper model?

You can already do this on the secondary market.

Sure, it'd cut into FFGs model sales…

The degree to which this is true is debatable: I own too many Interceptors, but otherwise I buy as many ships as I think I'll actually field, and then I make lists with the upgrade cards I have. This approach hasn't led to any major championship wins for me, but it has led to a lot of happy hours of gaming.

Some guy back on page one has the temerity to say he doesn't like how they bundle the cards, and people start jumping on him, saying "Oh, here's THAT guy" and "Hurr, no one's MAKING you do anything!". Like, no **** guys. You know what he's trying to say, so stop being a bunch of dicks about it and let's try to have a discussion about it.

What he said was that FFG was a greedy company because they were forcing him to buy an $80+ expansion. The problem is that he's not forced to buy that expansion in any important sense. The consequence of not buying the Raider is that your TIE Advanced still probably isn't very useful in competitive games.

But in non-competitive games he can proxy to his heart's content, and he can still build top-tier competitive lists without the TIE Advanced, so there's no element of compulsion at all.

His post also requires the assumption that the secondary market doesn't exist, and that he has no way to find someone who's willing to split a package with him. That is, even if he was "forced" to get some upgrades for the TIE Advanced, he's not forced to buy an $80+ expansion to get them.

These are not trivial problems with his reasoning; they're critical flaws that render his post a meaningless expression of negativity. Your support of his post is more literate, but equally incoherent because you're expressing the same sense of offended entitlement.

Imagine if, instead, you could buy a ship with NO cards, and then buy packs of cards to go with them. So you could just buy (and pay for) the content you want. Hell, in this digital age you could even order custom card packs. I'll take four Autothrusters and four Engine Upgrades, please! Imagine being able to buy another TIE fighter without paying for another copy of all those unique pilots that you can't use, or being able to buy an autothruster without having to pay for that awful Starviper model?

The same amount of stuff would probably be more expensive. Excellent for people who want to specialise into one squad and who have lots of other X-Wing players to play with, and terrible for people who buy it all, build lists before games and treat it as one big set. Good for the wargamer, bad for the boardgamer, if that makes sense.

It's just a bit of an obvious money grab on their part

I don't think it is or at least I don't think it started as one. It certainly works like one when you want to run six Black Squadron Pilots with Predator but I doubt that was the initial intent. It looks like a money grab when you're in the tournament mentality of buying "your list" after designing it and playing that one list, but it likely looked like a logical way to, given that they sell ships as expansions, to distribute upgrade cards. They're clearly aware with it, but they take a few (perhaps token) steps to minimise it: the three surplus TIE/x1 cards in the Raider, the two Autothrusters that come with one StarViper.

They want to expand the game by selling more ships, so they sell individual ships with a set of pilots and all the parts to run that one ship. They come up with the upgrade mechanic to increase squad building intricacy. You want to have lots of options and to be able to expand old ships later on, so you make the cards interchangeable between sets. They all come with upgrades that work with them, but you can mix and match if you have multiple packs. This does result in a card that pairs well with a pilot from another expansion quite often, and in some cases it can be quite bad (only one Extra Munitions per Wave 7 bomber). They could certainly stand to include more copies of non-unique cards that are "fixes" or that are very good on other ships in the newer expansions.

They sell a ship with tokens, pilot cards and a few upgrade cards for that ship. It's simple and very friendly to the casual player. It's only when you look at the competitive scene where people decide they must have the cards that are in vogue that it becomes a problem.

Imagine if, instead, you could buy a ship with NO cards, and then buy packs of cards to go with them. So you could just buy (and pay for) the content you want. Hell, in this digital age you could even order custom card packs. I'll take four Autothrusters and four Engine Upgrades, please! Imagine being able to buy another TIE fighter without paying for another copy of all those unique pilots that you can't use, or being able to buy an autothruster without having to pay for that awful Starviper model?

You do understand how unfeasible that is for a game on this scale is, right? You just cannot have thousands of custom card packs. So, in the end, even with card packs, you will be paying for content you don't necessarily want.

And one thing I think a lot of people seem to forget is that patience pays off. How many people were pissed off because they bought 4 Shuttles for Advanced Sensors, only to get it in the E-wing the next wave. A lot of the key upgrades will likely show up again, in another expansion.

They sell a ship with tokens, pilot cards and a few upgrade cards for that ship. It's simple and very friendly to the casual player. It's only when you look at the competitive scene where people decide they must have the cards that are in vogue that it becomes a problem.

But wait - why not simply assume that your A-Wing has CR? Good idea, but it does bring up the question why I pay for any cards at all. Again, as a casual player, I lose - this time because every expansion comes with cards containing rules hat I can just download on the internet. Sure they're useful in the cases where you have to discard a card but even then it's hard to justify that the game really needs the cards. I could save some money there, as a casual player.

So the casual player is in a lose-lose situation; either you play by the book and collect ships just for the cards that come with them, or you admit that you're buying pointless cardboard.

In my club, nobody has the CR90 and consequently C3PO has yet to appear on the table - or you just proxy him. But wouldthat be fair? I'm actually not a fan of proxying the most powerful combinations found online. But I also don't think it's fair to require that every player who wants a TIE X1 should have the Raider. So I'm of two minds when it comes to proxies. Like most players, I want to play the game cleanly, with the actual game material, but this seems to be made much harder than is necessary.

It would be a nice gesture if some cards weren't presented as upgrades but as what they really are - errata. I mean that these could be in addition to the normal complement of cards that come with an expansion. The Rebel Aces box just has too many errata cards, taking up space where actually useful things could go.

Or just let go of the cards altogether, since all the text on them can be found for free.

You can already do this on the secondary market.

You also get screwed on the secondary market though. Where cards that are popular can cost as much as half the cost of the expansion pack they come in.

If you could just order cards from the company, they'd presumably all cost the same amount.

This goes back to the whole "Pay-to-win" thing though.

Yes, you don't HAVE to get the cards that make your ships not suck. You could totally just keep playing at a HUGE disadvantage over the guy that shelled out $80. But it's not going to be any fun. Well, except maybe for the other guy.

Accusations of entitlement tend to ring hollow from someone whose attitude paints them as someone that clearly has the disposable income to pay whatever the company asks him to pay.

"Why should someone who's only willing to spend a reasonable amount of money be able to compete with someone who's willing to pay so much more like me? They're so entitled!"

What he said was that FFG was a greedy company because they were forcing him to buy an $80+ expansion. The problem is that he's not forced to buy that expansion in any important sense. The consequence of not buying the Raider is that your TIE Advanced still probably isn't very useful in competitive games.

This goes back to the whole "Pay-to-win" thing though.

Yes, you don't HAVE to get the cards that make your ships not suck. You could totally just keep playing at a HUGE disadvantage over the guy that shelled out $80. But it's not going to be any fun. Well, except maybe for the other guy.

You are not at a HUGE disadvantage. As someone who has slowly built up their collection, I have not been able to get stuff immediately upon release. I only got the Transport early this year. I understand that not being able to play the squads you want may feel like you are at a competitive disadvantage, but it isn't true. I know Threepio is the big bad boogeyman, but he isn't as vital as many believe.

I understand that not being able to play the squads you want may feel like you are at a competitive disadvantage, but it isn't true.

This is your opinion, and I don't agree with it.

I understand that not being able to play the squads you want may feel like you are at a competitive disadvantage, but it isn't true.

This is your opinion, and I don't agree with it.

The Regional winning lists also says otherwise. There are some very nice lists that don't have Threepio in it.

They sell a ship with tokens, pilot cards and a few upgrade cards for that ship. It's simple and very friendly to the casual player. It's only when you look at the competitive scene where people decide they must have the cards that are in vogue that it becomes a problem.

I don't think it's very friendly to the casual player when the expansions do not contain the cards that are best for the ship. If C3PO is the best card for the Millennium Falcon, then its best place is in the box of the Falcon. The Rebel Aces box came with so many cards that were not useful for the ships in the box itself that the mind boggles - redundant Chardaan Refits, redundant A-Wing Test Pilot cards, redundant B-Wing E2 cards, even a redundant Enhanced Scopes, which is not the most useful upgrade anyway. It did not contain any cannons, nor Advanced Sensors, nor Stay on Target - just to name a few that would have been very useful. The A-Wing expansion should just have 1 Chardaan Refit - that would be friendly to the casual player.

But wait - why not simply assume that your A-Wing has CR? Good idea, but it does bring up the question why I pay for any cards at all. Again, as a casual player, I lose - this time because every expansion comes with cards containing rules hat I can just download on the internet. Sure they're useful in the cases where you have to discard a card but even then it's hard to justify that the game really needs the cards. I could save some money there, as a casual player.

So the casual player is in a lose-lose situation; either you play by the book and collect ships just for the cards that come with them, or you admit that you're buying pointless cardboard.

In my club, nobody has the CR90 and consequently C3PO has yet to appear on the table - or you just proxy him. But wouldthat be fair? I'm actually not a fan of proxying the most powerful combinations found online. But I also don't think it's fair to require that every player who wants a TIE X1 should have the Raider. So I'm of two minds when it comes to proxies. Like most players, I want to play the game cleanly, with the actual game material, but this seems to be made much harder than is necessary.

It would be a nice gesture if some cards weren't presented as upgrades but as what they really are - errata. I mean that these could be in addition to the normal complement of cards that come with an expansion. The Rebel Aces box just has too many errata cards, taking up space where actually useful things could go.

Or just let go of the cards altogether, since all the text on them can be found for free.

Just to make it clear, C3PO came out about a year after the Falcon did, so there was no way it could have been included in that pack. And as for the extra cards in the Rebel Aces pack, they were very useful for those of us (most of the player base at the time) who already had a few As & Bs in their collections. If they had included cards at a 1 to 1 ratio with the included models, then I'd have needed to buy 2 aces packs just to kit out the ships I already owned, and then would've still had a number of those ships that couldn't use them. There's no way to please everyone 100%.

The Regional winning lists also says otherwise. There are some very nice lists that don't have Threepio in it.

Yes, but do any of them not have ANY cards that didn't come with the ships they fielded on the table?

I'm clearly not talking about JUST Threepio even if you are.

Well, to be honest, as a casual starting player it feels miserable when i like to play the falcon and always loose to the falcons with 3PO. So yeah, i think this system is not the best.

You argue that its their sales plan, but what you can get with this kind of sales politics is a client burnt by the amount of ships they bought just to play with that card.

You assume that all of not-going-to-competitive-events players like to play whatever, but man it feels bad to play with the guys having it all and you just have to pay 90 dollars or swap your ships just to win some matches.

As a new player i like to try stuff, i also love competitive gaming(come from mtg) and havent played a competitive event yet because y dont have a lot of stuff. I, as others, also think that playing whatever in competitive handicap you i dont know if you can argue around that.

Accusations of entitlement tend to ring hollow from someone whose attitude paints them as someone that clearly has the disposable income to pay whatever the company asks him to pay.

I won't be able to afford a Raider if, as I expect, it comes out at GenCon. It's a big expenditure and it comes at a rotten time of year for my family. My disposable income is already stretched rather uncomfortably just to get me to the con.

Someone has said he'll try to pick one up for me as a thank-you for some work I did for him a while back, but I don't know for certain if that will materialize. My brother says he wants to get one for me as a late birthday present, but he's not going to the con and his wife just had to leave her job, so that also might not happen. Basically, if I get one before this winter it will be through someone else's generosity.

Fortunately, X-wing isn't a pay-to-win game. I can proxy the new cards I want in kitchen-table games or on Vassal, and I can build competitive lists without them. And if I truly decide I can't do without, I can see if I know someone or can find someone online who will take $10 or $15 for an X1 title and an Advanced Targeting Computer.

Well, to be honest, as a casual starting player it feels miserable when i like to play the falcon and always loose to the falcons with 3PO. So yeah, i think this system is not the best.

You argue that its their sales plan, but what you can get with this kind of sales politics is a client burnt by the amount of ships they bought just to play with that card.

You assume that all of not-going-to-competitive-events players like to play whatever, but man it feels bad to play with the guys having it all and you just have to pay 90 dollars or swap your ships just to win some matches.

As a new player i like to try stuff, i also love competitive gaming(come from mtg) and havent played a competitive event yet because y dont have a lot of stuff. I, as others, also think that playing whatever in competitive handicap you i dont know if you can argue around that.

Your squad alone doesn't win games. There is a significant skill requirement for this game. As a new player, you shouldn't expect to be a top player no matter how much you have bought.