The more and more I watch Star Wars, whether the movies, clone wars, or Rebels, the more I think that vehicle scale damage is a mistake.

There are so many examples of characters shooting vehicles and damaging them enough that they crash or cease to function, not to mention examples of the characters on foot bening shot at my vehicles and not being vapourized immediately.

I understand why the scale disparity exists, partly to keep things separate combat wise, so a hold out blaster doesn't take out a TIE fighter, as well as "it has always been done this way".

Now, I think being shot at by a vehicle weapons should have other advantages, but the x10 damage and armour as written doesn't seem to be the best option. This is something that has been discussed before, and I'd like to hear how you changed this, of at all, as well as how or why you decided to implement any change and how it worked in game.

I found the same "problem".

I use a minor fix. x5 to Vehicle scale (or light armored) and x10 to Starship scale (or heavy armored).

Uses to work pretty fine but still looking for bugs

I found the same "problem".

I use a minor fix. x5 to Vehicle scale (or light armored) and x10 to Starship scale (or heavy armored).

Uses to work pretty fine but still looking for bugs

I'll second the x5 modifier, although I apply it across the board. Most starships have enough armor that it'd take a perfect roll from small arms attacks to hurt them even then.

Never ran into any problems with it, but I also run combat-light campaigns.

There are so many examples of characters shooting vehicles and damaging them enough that they crash or cease to function, not to mention examples of the characters on foot bening shot at my vehicles and not being vapourized immediately.

Such as?

I bet there's something in clone wars you're thinking of, but in the films offhand I have trouble thinking of a scenario.

I posted this in another thread but here it is again:

The system I have been using:

Roll to strike the vehicle as usual; if the armour soaks the hit then of course no damage.

If the damage passes armour it does 1 point to the vehicle for every damage 10 damage dealt, as usual.

If you get under 10 you don't do any damage BUT you can still do your critical if you roll the advantages. Chances are you'll never destroy it but you could disable it or ruin the occupants day. Also for every silhouette above you -10 from the roll on the crit chart.

It's worked for me so far.

There are so many examples of characters shooting vehicles and damaging them enough that they crash or cease to function, not to mention examples of the characters on foot bening shot at my vehicles and not being vapourized immediately.

Such as?

I bet there's something in clone wars you're thinking of, but in the films offhand I have trouble thinking of a scenario.

In fact, the first scenes I think of point the other way. The Falcon shrugs off small arms fire when escaping both Hoth and Mos Eisely and even the fragile speederbikes in Ep VI are destroyed by their own weapons or a friggin' lightsaber.

Based on the x5, x10 (considering the light/heavy rule I posted), where would you put a TIE Fighter?

Scout trooper shooting Leia's speeder causing her to crash.

Leia shooting at the speeder bike on Endor after meeting Wicket.

The STAP speeders firing on Jedi

Boba shooting Slave 1 at Obi-wan

The cannon that shot Luke's hand in Jedi, maybe

In the most recent episode of rebels, Sabine was piloting a speeder whose engines were damaged and crashes.

TIE fighters shooting at characters in Rebels.

That is all I can cite off hand this early in the morning.

Ship weapons seem to often have an knockdown quality. Now we don't often see the weapons actually hit the heroes, plot armour generally, and the RPG doesn't take that into account. The players are far more susceptible to being wiped out by a vehicle weapon. Even taking into account the silhouette disparity, the chances to do massive damage to a player is very likely.

Now I am not saying that every star fighter should be taken out by handheld blaster fire, but the x10 seems to be a tad, well, overkill - especially with the marginal difficulty increase from differing silhouettes (speeders mostly)

Scout trooper shooting Leia's speeder causing her to crash.

Leia shooting at the speeder bike on Endor after meeting Wicket.

The STAP speeders firing on Jedi

Boba shooting Slave 1 at Obi-wan

The cannon that shot Luke's hand in Jedi, maybe

In the most recent episode of rebels, Sabine was piloting a speeder whose engines were damaged and crashes.

TIE fighters shooting at characters in Rebels.

Thank you sir, lets work through these real quick. I'm not at the top of my game right now, but I'll try.

Scout trooper shooting Leia's speeder causing her to crash. - Speederbike on Speederbike right? That's pretty doable.

Leia shooting at the speeder bike on Endor after meeting Wicket. - shed need a decent roll, but also doable. The bikerscout was a minion, and bikes have no armor. So a crit kill is easily accessible.

The STAP speeders firing on Jedi - well need to see official stats, so it depends on the scale of the weapons on the STAP.

Boba shooting Slave 1 at Obi-wan - OK, this is the tricky one so far. There's a few ways to go. A triumphant miss being a possibility, using the triumph to knock obi down. A despair result on obis part might also be a possibility. Jango has ranks in adversary...

The cannon that shot Luke's hand in Jedi, maybe - maybe.

In the most recent episode of rebels, Sabine was piloting a speeder whose engines were damaged and crashes. - can't recall that, seige of lothal?

TIE fighters shooting at characters in Rebels. - they miss though don't they?

So its possible... I do agree there's some holes. Sil 3 vs Sil 1 is a little easy, and there is always the challenge of balancing man portable antitank weapons. Make the missiles too good, and what's the point of tanks?

Still waiting to see what we get from future supps...

Actually, the scout trooper was firing a blaster pistol (light or holdout) and hit the bike, causing Leia to fall off. Now, with a single minion at that point, the only way that is likely possible is with an upgraded via destiny point attack. Going by your examples of how it could work.

Now those ARE some good interpretations of the situations. The issue I have is the heroes of the movie have a lot better behind the scene dice rolls than a character could have - because it is a movie, not a game. The crux here is that most of us want to play the game like we see the movies, and with the dice rolls and certain situations it can be hard to do that. The x10, even x5 seems a very tacked on and mechanical solution for this game. That is why I wonder if armour values shouldn't be increased all around for vehicles, and certain weapons have breach or activating certain qualities is increased by difference in silhouette - not really the best solution mind you, and steps on some massive toes.

There is also the issue of rather using a hand held blaster to fire at a pilot, say of a speeder bike, and ignoring silhouette modifiers. Why bother with vehicle weapons? Minions in vehicles is another issue. Why was advice on running them not given? Note: it may be. I'm away from book right now.

As to Sabine, yes, siege of lothal, during the rescue of <spoiler>. She was in a blue speeder, port engine.

Going to have to disagree with you here. You're advocating blaster pistols and laser cannons, laminate armor and tank armor, all being the same scale. It isn't. Different power levels (energy-output-wise), different damage resistance, different damage taking ability; the scale between characters and vehicles represents that as good as the real world does. I know you mention increasing the Armor value of vehicles, or the damage of vehicle weapons, but isn't that just the same thing as it is now? Are you really going to have an X-Wing laser cannons, which are powerful enough to blow holes in tanks, walkers, and even dent Star Destroyers, deal 6-7 points of damage to a PC? I'm sorry, if the heroes of Lothal were actually hit...HIT...by those TIEs strafing them they would be atomized. Look at what the TIE does to the troopers in the Hanger Bay in the Force Awakens Teaser Trailer. Explosions and stormies flying everywhere.

Why use a hand blaster to fire at a pilot of a vehicle instead of the vehicle itself? You answer your own question; because the pilot is easier to kill with a pistol than the speeder. If the speederbike pilot is close enough to be shot at by a pistol, that's his disadvantage. That speederbike should be at Long or Extreme range killing the pistol-wielder with it's superior-range (albeit, harder to hit with) weaponry.

In the Sabine example, that was a personal speeder. No armor (game presidence for this). So a bunch of stormies firing weapons that deal 10 damage could easily take it down in several hits. But they were also shooting at it from below. If the stormtroopers had a clear line of sight on Sabine, they may have shot at her instead, because it's a lot easier to kill a man in one hit than it is a car unless you have a weapon that can kill a car in one hit. If the Stormies had EWebs, they'd just annihilate the car and let the resulting explosion deal with Sabine. Just like in the real world, a M2 .50 Caliber emplacement is just going to spray a car rushing a checkpoint, because 30 rounds of .50 calibur ammo will kill the car...and likely everything inside it.

If a person is hit with a tank round, or a 20mm cannon round, or a Hellfire missile; they are GONE. X-Wing lasers, At-At blasters, and anti-vehicle grenade launchers are the Star Wars equivalent. If a PC, or Luke Skywalker, or Darth Vader, or Yoda, or Han Solo, gets hit with one of these they are DONE. If a soldier shoots a tank with a Glock 15, nothing is going to happen to that tank. If a cop shoots a Honda Civic with a Glock, very little is going to happen to that Civic (maybe). Princess Leia blasted Slave I a half-dozen times to no effect.

There is always going to be disparity between the movies and tv shows and the game. The movies have teams of producers, directors, and writers to determine what happens to the heroes based on story needs and the desires of their executive bosses. They consider the overall story and the marketability of that story. They know what is going to happen and can plan for it. The game is a different beast; we have an air of randomness that influences the narrative, the creative staff (the GM and the PCs) have an idea where they WANT the story to go, but the dice can throw unexpected hinderances into that plan. And lets face it, the Players (I'm including GMs in this statement too) can have moments of absolute stupidity that can't be planned for.

Tangent! There is a section in AoR at least, a side bar, on how to run vehicles as minions. I also am away from book, but I recall it working very similar to standard minion rules.

And my take...

Scout trooper shooting Leia's speeder causing her to crash.
Leia shooting at the speeder bike on Endor after meeting Wicket.
The STAP speeders firing on Jedi
Boba shooting Slave 1 at Obi-wan
The cannon that shot Luke's hand in Jedi, maybe
In the most recent episode of rebels, Sabine was piloting a speeder whose engines were damaged and crashes.
TIE fighters shooting at characters in Rebels.

1. Scout trooper rolls a ton of Advantage and spends it on knocking Leia off course. Leia fails a pilot check and bails out before colliding with a tree.

2. Leia shoots and hits the Scout Trooper on the bike, causing him to fail a pilot check and slamming into a tree stump.

3. STAP speeders firing at the Jedi; they missed, didn't they? Plus those may be anti-personnnel weapons, we don't know yet.

4. Boba shooting at Obi-Wan; he also missed, and likley spent Triumph or Advantage to knock Obi-Wan around.

5. Anti-personnel blaster cannon; nothing in this game comes close to that, but previous editions have marked that as a light anti-armor, heavy anti-personnel weapon. Probably similar to a heavy repeater in stats, but still character scale.

6. Discussed in my post above

7. Again, the TIEs missed, because if they were hit by those cannons there would be nothing but a fine red mist.

There are no instances of a character from a movie or TV series who is hit with vehicle weapons and surviving, nor where a character shoots at an armored vehicle with hand-held blasters and is able to take it out in a couple shots. In fact, you could probably find some Clone Wars episodes where Clone Troopers are hit with vehicle weapons and don't survive the experience, or who have to deal with armored droid-vehicles with heavy explosives (grenades and missiles).

To quote the core rulebook:

"Nearly anything can happen in the heat of the moment: even a single shot fired at an Imperial Star Destroyer might hit some critical component that results in its destruction"

As people above have said, it really is up to your group; do you want a more grounded, realistic session or more of a Michael Bay film with huge explosions and characters facing seemingly impossible odds and coming through without a scratch. There's definitely scope for both and plenty in between, which is what makes tabletop RPGs such a great medium.

Double post, sorry. Mods?

To quote the core rulebook:

"Nearly anything can happen in the heat of the moment: even a single shot fired at an Imperial Star Destroyer might hit some critical component that results in its destruction"

As people above have said, it really is up to your group; do you want a more grounded, realistic session or more of a Michael Bay film with huge explosions and characters facing seemingly impossible odds and coming through without a scratch. There's definitely scope for both and plenty in between, which is what makes tabletop RPGs such a great medium.

Oh gods; please don't Michael Bay Star Wars...I don't want Megan Fox as Princess Leia.

Yeah XD

In Leia's comic (Canon)...

Maybe vehicles and starships resistance isn't so high as we think.

For some time we are considering the strength of the ships is not as great as it sounds, since they lose the shields do not take long to be destroyed. So we are experimenting to create some sort of rule linked to a different way to use shields.

More Shield importance and less with Hulls.

In Leia's comic (Canon)...

A bunch on civilian ship are able to defeat a Imperial Star Destroyer.

To be fair

In Leia's comic (Canon)...

A bunch on civilian ship are able to defeat a Imperial Star Destroyer.

To be fair

Even with the 20+ ships, a fair number of which being around the size of a CR-90, it wasn't until Beon's particularly massive ship came along, that any real damage was getting through to the Star Destroyer

You are right

But the sensation still that Hull isn't so hard and resistant. Even at CW, when Rep Cruisers loose their shields their fall "easily".

<snip>

If a person is hit with a tank round, or a 20mm cannon round, or a Hellfire missile; they are GONE.

<snip>

While I would normally agree with most of what you've said, I do have to say that I've seen more than my fair share of people hit by hellfire missiles and walk away.

<snip>

If a person is hit with a tank round, or a 20mm cannon round, or a Hellfire missile; they are GONE.

<snip>

While I would normally agree with most of what you've said, I do have to say that I've seen more than my fair share of people hit by hellfire missiles and walk away.

...I'm going to need you to explain that one...

For science, of course.

Considering we never see someone directly hit with a vehicle weapon in the movies or any canon source I know of, that I can recall - though the rail mounted gun in the sail barge is a 'maybe' example, we don't know the effects of vehicle weapons on a human sized opponent.

I'm not suggesting that a vehicle weapon only do 6 damage without some kind of mechanic to represent the increased power of these weapons, only that the x10 is, possibly, too much to accurately represent the cinematic nature of the movies currently. Perhaps Rogue One will show a more brutal and deadly Star Wars combat.

The issue I have is really this: If I have a really smart villain, why would they do anything but the most they can to defeat the heroes? That includes firing at them with a vehicle mounted weapon of possible. We see this in the canon all the time, characters being fired on by vehicle weapons, and not dying. Now you can rule that as missing every shot, but the difficulty of the larger weapons firing at smaller targets is extremely minimal. It doesn't mesh up wit the movies, even capital ships firing on fighters seems to hit more often than we see in the movies.

I find a disconnect with the game in that, especially if you cite canon examples, that I can't make a character on par with what we see. Now I know the game has an element of risk for your characters dying, though that is unlikely unless suffering multiple crits or vicious quality ones at that. The point is you have to run foes stupid and not use any advantage they have, in regards to vehicle weapons, to keep the players from dying.

I think toning back the damage would be a decent idea. Perhaps keep vehicle scale, but give it a bonus damage equal to silhouette damage when attacking personal scale. So that 6 damage heavy laser versus from an AT-AT versus a rebel trooper would be doing a fair bit more damage - likely enough to exceed most characters wound threshold.

I also find the stat blocks don't differentiate what is personal scale and vehicle scale as well. Once again, I'm away from book at the moment, so I can't easily check of a speeder bike weapons says "personal scale damage". I suppose it depends on what the game is allowing you to play: heroes on par with the movie characters, or the ancillary characters that surround them. I don't deny that dice should, and do indeed, play a significant role, but the penalties for firing at a smaller target are indeed minimal, and can stop an entire story with a lucky shot. Much the same about the fragility of star ships, though that is a separate issue which I find is not as general(ly) grievous.

If it's mounted on a vehicle, as a standard, is a vehicle weapon. In some cases (I remember a speeder bike but not wich one sorry) they put a note saying that uses "personal scale" instead vehicle one.

That is what I thought.

I may be wrong about Luke's hand. I believe that was a blaster pistol shot. There are still enough examples that make this an issue.

What do people think about changing vehicle scale to this:

When a vehicle attacks a personal scale target, add damage equal to silhouette difference to the total damage, before soak is factored in. When a personal scale target attacks a vehicle, the silhouette is added to the targets soak value (armour).

Examples either A: don't actually hit, B: are against Jedi who use their lightsabers/the Force to mitigate, or C: are against very small vehicles, smaller silhouette 2 range. One example forgotten: Episode V, Luke's copilot gets killed in 1 by AT-AT fire. Also, a The Clone Wars episode (was it "The General" or maybe the one right after?) shows clone troopers getting massacred by a couple of big tanks, and not being able to do squat against them. The example of Leah v. the speeder bikes can be replicated through targeting the pilots and spending Advantage/Triumph to hit vital portions of the bikes and causing a crash. The only big question is Luke being shot by the deck gun, but I'm pretty sure that was just to show the newbies he had a robot hand.