Hello,

My group is thinking about doing another Star Wars campaign in a few monthser, and I'm thinking about suggesting EotE instead of Saga (which we played so far and enjoyed greatly).

What my group likes to do:

-most players pretty much embody the scoundrel archetype, with a mix of gunslinger, social and/or tech skills, and they enjoy pursuing both combat and social aspects of the game.

- small ship combat (most our Saga campaign have ended up with the group owning 1-2 freighters and at least a couple of fighter escorts for them)

-there is one players that enjoys Force users, mostly the 'Force wizard' archetype (he views lightsabers as little more than fancy can openers)

How would EotE compare to Saga for running this kind of games?

The system allows for more outcomes than simple "pass/fail" and opens up the narrative to both players and GM input; so if you and your players are open to or skilled at improv, it should be a nice fit. As far as the archetypes and style of play, the system works for that just as well, but the main difference between the systems is the amount of fine details and crunch (in a D20 system) verses, interpretation and narrative cooperation among the entire table.

There's also, in my experience, more of a reliable or even predictable effects for traits and rolls in a D20 game. If I have a certain stat and skill combination, coupled with the right set of feats and equipment, I can predict my chances of success and if I know my GM well enough, I can may even be able to predict what that success will lead to. With EotE, having the right attribute and skill combo along with the right talents and equipment will give you a great pool of dice to roll, but from there anything can happen, even what your successes or failures mean isn't just interpreted by one person, but by the whole table (be careful not to back stab your fellow players)!

I would recommend EotE, but if you prefer the finer details, consider allowing rolls that miss the DC by 3-5 to still succeed (but at some cost), while giving those who beat the DC by 3-5 or more to succeed with some kind of bonus. This won't fully capture the dynamic feeling of this system, but would be a great primer if you want to make the eventual adjustment a little less jarring.

Game On!!!

How would it compare? It would dominate - but then I've always been of the opinion that the D20 engine was utter crap for Star Wars. The starship combat was a joke and the class system is WAY too restrictive for your typical Star Wars character.

- There's plenty of source material for the scoundrels and faces of the galaxy: the Smuggler book, the Colonist book and the Diplomat book are all very social aspect heavy. Plus the four way dynamic (you fail with trouble, you succeed with trouble, you fail with something awesome, and you succeed with something awesome) is a really cool story telling tool. Add in that everyone is encouraged to tell the story, not just the GM and I think it would be a good fit.

- The ship combat, while not perfect, can easily handle smaller furballs like you seem to be looking for.

- You can do force users with this game, although to really open the options, picking up a copy of F&D would serve you well.

Agree with previous posters. EotE is a much more appropriate system for the setting. Saga was good, but it has it's failings.

Sounds like you'll be running a Hybrid EotE and F&D campaign if the players stick to those concepts, and yes, the different "Games" (AoR, EotE, and F&D) are 100% compatible. And actually you may find it better as the Forcee will be better balanced with the rest of the group.

Be advised that vehicle combat in this system is good, but it's design is fast, deadly, and doesn't work the way a lot of people expect. Take it slow, and work up. If you just go in day one dumping a dozen TIEs on the table you'll just end up with dead PCs. Learn the system, understand how to make it work for the players, and don't overwhelm them.

GhostOfMan touched on what I wanted to say for vehicle combat, I'll add my two cents to Force wizards..

I love the Force and Jedi. It's my favorite thing about Star Wars. This system balances Force users really well. However, it takes A LOT of XP to be a good Force wizard in this system. Firstly, you'll probably want to grab Force and Destiny when it drops (likely the end of this month or sometime in August). Because with Edge of the Empire you'll only have the potential to raise your Force Rating (the stat that Force powers revolve around) to 2, which is fairly meager. But Force and Destiny has some good trees that gives you fairly quick access to higher Force Ratings. But combine that crawl, with the XP it takes to invest in Force powers and rounding out your character's skills, it becomes a battle in order to be useful to the group while still working through your potential.

I love it. It shows a real gradual growth that I would expect from someone devoting their time to learn an entire tradition, but the pacing is certainly slower than Saga (a system I found quite enjoyable and I still look upon books fondly).

Stick to Saga... Oh, wanna buy the complete Saga set? I won't be using it anymore.

I had fun with Saga, but the FFG iteration of SW gaming blows Saga away. I'd suggest grabbing one of the beginner boxes...they are good adventures, have a solid and long downloadable PDF follow-up, and are a cheap way to explore the game and get an extra set of dice.

Stick to Saga... Oh, wanna buy the complete Saga set? I won't be using it anymore.

You got me. I yelled, "WHAT?!?!!?" and then LOL'd for real.

This star wars rpg is great and I like it more than Saga BUT make sure that the player who want to play a force user is aware he would be a one trick poney. It take at least 75 XP I think to increase your force rating because with one force rating you are not going far in the force. If he really want to be a force wizzard, he need a third force rating to be really powerfull, so its another 75 XP plus 20 XP for the second specialization. But wait, after all this XP spend, you still have no power because you need to buy them and develop them with XP, tons of XP. Oh and I forget. with all of this XP, the character is still not able to handle a lightsaber correctly. Also while the player spend his hard gained XP into the force, his scoundrel friend has a lot more skill ranks and talent than the force user.

I know it all depend of the player. I know some that dont care about that if they can lift people and launch them in the air. I also know some that didnt appreciate being weaker than their mundane compagnion just because they needed to split so much XP between different place.

So to answer your question, the FFG star wars rpg is a fabulous game but if, you want to run a mixed party with force users, stay with Saga unless the force user player dont mind being weak.

So to answer your question, the FFG star wars rpg is a fabulous game but if, you want to run a mixed party with force users, stay with Saga unless the force user player dont mind being weak.

I can't agree with that at all. You can do plenty with the basic powers and the subtle powers. One player in my game (the Enforcer) has made great use of Enhance, drilling down the tree to enhance his Brawn, and working now on the Agility side. He has a lot of fun laying waste with his truncheon. Another has only taken the "mind read" upgrade for Sense, but they have still made great use of it in the game. You can do lots of things with Move that aren't flashy, take some inspiration from TCW, e.g.: Anakin moving a rock to confuse battle droids.

Sure, you can be a one-trick pony, but that seems kind of a boring way to play. And yes, you won't be Anakin or Ahsoka out of the gate, but that's what I like about it. It really takes a long time to become broadly capable in the Force, plus be a well-rounded character, which kind of fits with the lore wrt how much time and devotion a Force user is expected to commit. But you can have a lot of fun with it all along the way.

So to answer your question, the FFG star wars rpg is a fabulous game but if, you want to run a mixed party with force users, stay with Saga unless the force user player dont mind being weak.

Nonsense. You want to make someone good with a saber? 140-ish points will get you pretty far down the a Makashi duelist tree. Throw another 40 points for skills and you'll have a nice rounded character. That's what, about 9 sessions worth of XP?

75 points will get you a beeline to an extra force die on the Aggressor tree and another 50 will get you strong in any one force power (like, say influence). A handful of points at skills, and you've got a pretty solid specialist Jedi in about nine sessions.

This star wars rpg is great and I like it more than Saga BUT make sure that the player who want to play a force user is aware he would be a member of a party an not an overpowered half god that outshines his friends completely.

Fixed it for you.

Hello,

My group is thinking about doing another Star Wars campaign in a few monthser, and I'm thinking about suggesting EotE instead of Saga (which we played so far and enjoyed greatly).

What my group likes to do:

-most players pretty much embody the scoundrel archetype, with a mix of gunslinger, social and/or tech skills, and they enjoy pursuing both combat and social aspects of the game.

- small ship combat (most our Saga campaign have ended up with the group owning 1-2 freighters and at least a couple of fighter escorts for them)

-there is one players that enjoys Force users, mostly the 'Force wizard' archetype (he views lightsabers as little more than fancy can openers)

How would EotE compare to Saga for running this kind of games?

very favourably.

your 3 themes are all covered very well (space combat can be a bit wonky). if you happen to like a dice system that combines mechanical and narrative effects, choose eote. you'll love it. (whoever is playing the force user might be slightly disappointed though, cause in this game they are not completely op. )

the core book has everything you need, so a trial run shouldn't break the bank. you might want to use oggdude's character and campaign manager. it's awesome (and it includes a lot of races not in the core books). https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/89135-another-character-generator/

By my count, it's 135 XP down the Sage tree to Force Rating 3, 140 down Seer. Sure, that's a healthy chunk of XP, but some well-placed Sense, Move and Influence can get you pretty wizardly on the way there. If you're willing to take on a bit of conflict every few sessions, you can also unleash some pretty unpleasant smack-down when it really counts. Don't overplay your hand, and people will fear the quiet force-mage in the background.

I have never run Saga so I cannot make comparative arguments but I can talk about EotE with some authority. It is hands down one of the best systems I have ever run. It is fairly simple to learn, massively flexible an superbly balanced. It plays quickly without ever feeling simplistic and the system of advantages and threats gives a great degree of depth yet still isn't complicated.

In terms of character roles, it's hugely effective. Pick your base career which helps determine your character's core skills, and then a specialization that will determine what type of Bounty Hunter / Hired Gun / Technician / Whatever that they are. Sure they're a Bounty Hunter, but are they an Assassin a lá Aura Sing, or are they Gadgeteer a lá Boba Fett? And then when they're a little further along, they might pick up another Specialization, either from the same career or another. (Maybe your Smuggler is a bit of a mechanic, too, patching up their ship with lots of hidden little extras). It leads to great, flavourful character builds that are still well-balanced.

Some people have brought up the Force and have said things that I believe create the wrong impression. Namely that Force use is some sort of XP black hole that you will always be pretty useless with. That is FAR from the truth. You'll be having fun with your Force powers from day one. Maybe this is a comparison to Saga and in that Force was massively powerful very quickly. But it is most definitely NOT weak in EotE/AoR/FaD. Firstly, Force Rating is not the determinant of how powerful you are. You can effectively re-create Obi-Wan with Force Rating 2 if you wish! Much of the power in Force use comes from the upgrades you purchase for any given power.

Desslok put some numbers on it and said about nine sessions would get you a competent Lightsabre wielder. That sounds about right. And it's not as if they'll be useless up until that point - they'll be an effective combatant even to start out with, it's just that once they've got a good chunk of the Makashi Duellist tree, they'll be really fun and noticeably good at what they do.

In this system you get very effective Force wielders. They're not weak, they're just not more powerful than someone else with the same amount of XP. Jango Fett can go one on one with Obi Wan, and the system reflects that.

If a player expects to immediately be a lightning spewing, X-Wing moving, future sensing mind controller who can leap 20m, then they're going to be disappointed, it's true. But if they want a cool character that the Force is a central part of and can do cool things right away, and with a Dark Side system that is beautifully implemented and actually tempts players in a meaningful way, then use this system.

The Dark / Light side system is very clever, btw. Each Force dice has a mix of light and dark pips on its faces. Faces with dark side pips on them are actually more common than light side pips, but light side faces have higher numbers of pips. So they've managed to replicate Yoda's comment about the Dark Side not being stronger, but easier. There will be endless situations where you're trying to accomplish something and you juuuuuussst need to dip into those dark side pips to increase your success. Just this one time and then you'll stop using them...

Anyway, I have nothing but praise for EotE/AoR/FaD. The only criticism I would make is that star fighter combat is a little too deadly. I do have a nice house-rule for it, though. EotE is a very complete book. You can play very effectively for a long time with just those core rules. If you're serious about Force use, however, you're going to need to get FaD as well, unfortunately. But other than that, the core rules have tonnes of options to enjoy just by themself. You can get by with one pack of dice, but two will be noticeably helpful, I'm afraid.

Enjoy whichever you get!

I havent give false impression, I said the true. The force is powerfull but really slow to developp, and for someone who have played a force wizard in Saga, that could be frustrating. Again it's really depend of what you and your players want for your game.

I havent give false impression, I said the true.

You said a Force user would be "weak" compared to somebody else in the party. This is not true...or it's true of all one-trick pony character types. A Wookie Marauder that starts with Brawn 5 is also going to be a one-trick pony and "weak" compared to others in the party.

If you take a reasonably balanced approach to character development, the Force user will be plenty capable, neither overshadowing nor being overshadowed by others in the party.

You said a Force user would be "weak" compared to somebody else in the party. This is not true...or it's true of all one-trick pony character types. A Wookie Marauder that starts with Brawn 5 is also going to be a one-trick pony and "weak" compared to others in the party.

I’ve been the Wookiee Marauder with Brawn 5. I was never weak compared to others in the party. Okay, so I wasn’t any good at the “Face” things. And I was never good with the computer or mechanical things. And while I may have done more damage in combat in the early part of the story, as time went on the Heavy with the Light Repeating Blaster became the most dangerous guy in ground combat — and the guy flying the ship with Medium Lasers was way more deadly than that. But I understood my role well, and I was good at Tanking. And I was never weak. I was just good at the things I was good at, and really bad at everything else.

But the most important thing was role-playing.

If you’re a good role-player, then you can take a min-maxed character type and still have a blast while you fill your role in the group really well.

But if you’re a munchkin min-max player, then it doesn’t really matter much what type of character you play.

You may want to give one of our podcast episodes a listen. Episode 24 - Kung Pow Chicken dealt entirely with converting players from SAGA to FFG; not converting characters, PLAYERS. We talk about each system and what GM Chris and I felt that FFG did better.

Might give you some insight as to the raving ferverent support those on these forums are givving FFG these past few years.

The two systems are hard to compare I think. They're quite different.

What other games do you play?

FFGSWRPG is very good for improvisation, spontaneous sessions and irrational player actions, although you have to deal with a different level of abstraction than SAGA. This can be hard to get used to, but it ultimately rewarding as long as you manage to adapt. Which shouldn't be too hard.

There are a lot of good points above, so I'll just get in line and recommend testing EotE.

FFGSWRPG is very good for improvisation, spontaneous sessions and irrational player actions, although you have to deal with a different level of abstraction than SAGA. This can be hard to get used to, but it ultimately rewarding as long as you manage to adapt. Which shouldn't be too hard.

Yeah, it isn't hard at all.

In fact, our group stated of as two 4E DnD/Saga veterans among its ranks as well as three complete RPG beginners. Everyone could play easily and comfortably after the beginner game. It is very intuitive!

I had a very good, major story arc planned and fully written for a Saga campaign once. After 3 sessions, I was so rattled as a GM over the insane crap the game practically created in its own rules, I swore I would never use it again. I would have rather not run the campaign, or to participate in any Star Wars adventure fun at all, than to have run it using those rules.

Oh, I didn't see it by just reading the rules. No no... none of the nightmare even showed its face until AFTER the first few die rolls. But when it happened, it hit me like a freight train, and I simply couldn't ignore it. The players were enjoying it, mostly because of the story... but my experience as a GM trying to run it was simply not fun.

Saga is basically a lot of 3.5 D20, a pinch of 4e D20, and a whole lot of crap, all mixed together. And that's not even considering the nest of garbage that was the starship mechanics.

If you love 3.5 and have even the slightest idea that maybe 4e isn't really a total pile of trash (like me)... then you might love how the system looks on paper. Oh... you THINK it's going to be rawesome. But then, especially if you are the GM - you'll realize.

And then, even if you can overlook the really big gaps of balance you could drive a semi truck through, you're still stuck with the fact of the matter that a D20 system simply doesn't translate into a modern or futuristic setting, and especially a Star Wars setting, as well as it does a traditional fantasy setting. And even then, you'r still dealing with out-dated design theory that goes back 15 years vs something that could still be considered modern.

FFG Star Wars mechanics are just... they're simply better for a Star Wars setting. It's practically the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system for table top adventuring as far as I'm concerned.

Thank you everyone for replying so far. I am going to pitch EotE to my group.

Are there any glaring balance/mechanical issues that one should be prepared for (like Saga had low level force users and Condition Track snipers) ?

Are there any glaring balance/mechanical issues that one should be prepared for (like Saga had low level force users and Condition Track snipers) ?

You can certainly min max some things...a high Brawn Doctor with Pressure Point can be hard to deal with, for example...but it's been my experience that more people are happy with their characters if they are somewhat balanced. Being good in one area and decent at a couple others has made at least my players happier than being awesome in one area and poor at everything else.

Beware the Hired Gun: Heavy. It's really easy to be slinging around autofire and activating it with just a single advantage.

I usually hear people complain of their high brawn droids that are glorified walking death machines with soak in their double digits.