Hi all

I'm a newbie to Fantasy Flight, and haven't even had my first game of EoE yet. Been staving off boredom at work by crunching through the rules, and came across this anomaly in assisted checks that I was hoping someone could help with.

(NB: Because of the fact that some sides of the dice contain multiple symbols, such as double success or success + advantage, dice odds are a little weird for EoE. For those interested in the madness behind my methods, I've multiplied them out to successes per 24 rolls because it gives whole number results for d6, d8 and d12).

So, as I understand it, an unskilled assist provides a benefit to the action taking place in the form of a Boost die added to the pool. A skilled assist doesn't add a Boost die, but instead allows players to use the highest characteristic and the highest skill of the two PCs, upgrading the Ability dice to Proficiency dice as required. So far so good.

(Actually, not so far so good. Thematically, I'm not sold on the idea that "the additional assistance is still providing some benefit". Having someone who doesn't know about engines trying to help someone who does know about engines would not be useful; it would be annoying. But I digress.)

The issue I'm having is that, per 24 rolls, upgrading an Ability die to a Proficiency die gives an average of +5 successes (including the triumph) - an Ability die will roll an average of 15 successes per 24, and a Proficiency die will roll an average of 20 per 24. However, adding a Boost die to the original Ability die gives an average of +8 successes per 24 rolls - an Ability die still rolls 15 successes per 24, and a Boost die rolls an average of 8 successes per 24, meaning that rolled together they produce 23 successes from 24 rolls.

This means that, if the skilled assistance only upgrades 1 of the dice, it is better to take unskilled assistance, in terms of the number of successes likely to be rolled, being +3 more effective. Granted this doesn't take into account the added benefit of a triumph, but that doesn't seem to balance things out to me.

If a skilled assist upgrades two or more dice, it becomes the more effective option again. But it seems to me that upgrading a roll by 1, because Bob the Smuggler took +1 Intelligence during character creation and you didn't bother, must be a pretty common occurence.

My questions, then, are as follows:

1. Am I right? (I may not be).
2. If I am right, what's the best way to fix this? Just get rid of unskilled assists?

Thanking you for your help in advance.

First: I would submit this post from Fiddbleback (and the articles he links to, written by the game's designer Jay Little) as well-worth reading. Fiddleback is one of those guys that just gets this game, much more IMO than the average gamer.

That being said...

It's true, more good dice = more chance of success, on average. So (for example) there is definitely more benefit in adding a green Ability die than there is from upgrading to a yellow proficiency die. A Boost die does give you a higher chance of Success than an upgrade, but gives you 0% additional chances of rolling a Triumph.

If you don't take the Triumph into account, then you're gonna get a skewed result when you look at the value of an upgrade versus the value of a Boost. The Triumph is mega-game changing, so I'd say the Yellow die is more potent than the Blue die. Basically you've gotta take Triumphs into account because of what they offer in terms of game mechanical value, AND pure excitement/fun during play, which is the whole point of the game in the first place. So you could say Proficiency dice are more fun than Boost dice

Plus that, there's only a 1/12 chance of getting a null result on a yellow die (better than 1/8 for the Ability die), which is far ahead of the 1/3 chance of a null result on a Boost die. That matters especially when you look at each individual skill check rather than the big-picture game as a while.

I guess two times through PreCalc wasn't quite enough...

Further, the idea of an untrained person assisting a trained person granting a Boost die makes ton of sense. For example, a mechanic (which I am not; I can barely change an oil filter) asks me to help him out by holding a flashlight and passing him tools. I comply, granting him a Boost die for my assistance. There's a good chance (1/3) that I won't really help at all, but there's also a good chance of me either noticing something that he can't see (Advantage) or just doing my part by staying out of his way, helping him accomplish his tasks faster, and/or shining the light in all the right places (Success).

Hope that helps! I would strongly suggest playing through a good few solid sessions before making any changes to the rules.

adding a boost die increases the odds of success by about 5%, but increases your chance of getting advantages by about 10 percent.

upgrading an ability die has better odds of increasing your successes, then a boost die

My players always think more dice is better, and they are generally right.

Yes you can munchkin the game to death and have probability charts up the wazoo, and know EXACTLY weather an upgrade, or boost is going to help, but in the end the dice will tell you a story and the story is more important then odds

I seem to remember a quote from some corellian as he was flying through an asteroid field that would be appropriate, and you might want to ask yourself why he wouldn't want to know the odds?

http://maxmahem.net/wp/star-wars-edge-of-the-empire-die-probabilities/

So, as I understand it, an unskilled assist provides a benefit to the action taking place in the form of a Boost die added to the pool. A skilled assist doesn't add a Boost die, but instead allows players to use the highest characteristic and the highest skill of the two PCs, upgrading the Ability dice to Proficiency dice as required. So far so good.

Well, sometimes even with only 1 upgrade you get to add a green die, which is better than a boost die.

Even so, if you're still not convinced, you could allow players to choose whether to add a boost die in place of combining skills/attributes.

Remember also that you're limited in the use of skilled assistance. During structured gameplay (ie, combat), you assist by using the Assist maneuver (EotE CRB, pg 201), which gives an engaged ally a boost on his next skill check. This is mechanically similar to unskilled assistance. Skilled assistance can only be used in unstructured gameplay.

First: I would submit this post from Fiddbleback (and the articles he links to, written by the game's designer Jay Little) as well-worth reading. Fiddleback is one of those guys that just gets this game, much more IMO than the average gamer.

Great post, thanks. I understand this is a narrative game, and I'm not looking to max out stats and odds at the expense of character and story. However, my argument here is that, narratively, skilled assistance should always be more useful than unskilled assistance.

If you don't take the Triumph into account, then you're gonna get a skewed result when you look at the value of an upgrade versus the value of a Boost. The Triumph is mega-game changing, so I'd say the Yellow die is more potent than the Blue die. Basically you've gotta take Triumphs into account because of what they offer in terms of game mechanical value, AND pure excitement/fun during play, which is the whole point of the game in the first place. So you could say Proficiency dice are more fun than Boost dice

Well...fair enough, then. I must admit I haven't looked at Triumph as much as I have at other aspects of the game. Thanks!

Plus that, there's only a 1/12 chance of getting a null result on a yellow die (better than 1/8 for the Ability die), which is far ahead of the 1/3 chance of a null result on a Boost die. That matters especially when you look at each individual skill check rather than the big-picture game as a while.

Not sure that's true, since a Boost die is rolled alongside an Ability die, whereas a Proficiency die is rolled instead of an Ability die. My maths may be wonky, but I'm pretty sure that you have exactly half the chance of rolling a blank on Ability + Boost (1/24) compared to just Proficiency (1/12).

Further, the idea of an untrained person assisting a trained person granting a Boost die makes ton of sense. For example, a mechanic (which I am not; I can barely change an oil filter) asks me to help him out by holding a flashlight and passing him tools. I comply, granting him a Boost die for my assistance. There's a good chance (1/3) that I won't really help at all, but there's also a good chance of me either noticing something that he can't see (Advantage) or just doing my part by staying out of his way, helping him accomplish his tasks faster, and/or shining the light in all the right places (Success).

Yep, I suppose I hadn't considered all possible meanings of "assistance", so yes that's fair that it should offer some advantage.

Hope that helps! I would strongly suggest playing through a good few solid sessions before making any changes to the rules.

Thanks, that does help. I will play before changing anything, of course.

Thanks to everyone else who replied as well - I haven't addressed your comments because I'd have ended up repeating myself, but please be assured they are much appreciated!

First: I would submit this post from Fiddbleback (and the articles he links to, written by the game's designer Jay Little) as well-worth reading. Fiddleback is one of those guys that just gets this game, much more IMO than the average gamer.

<snip>

I get an error on the article links. Are they available anywhere else?

Plus that, there's only a 1/12 chance of getting a null result on a yellow die (better than 1/8 for the Ability die), which is far ahead of the 1/3 chance of a null result on a Boost die. That matters especially when you look at each individual skill check rather than the big-picture game as a while.

Not sure that's true, since a Boost die is rolled alongside an Ability die, whereas a Proficiency die is rolled instead of an Ability die. My maths may be wonky, but I'm pretty sure that you have exactly half the chance of rolling a blank on Ability + Boost (1/24) compared to just Proficiency (1/12).

I done math real good!

First: I would submit this post from Fiddbleback (and the articles he links to, written by the game's designer Jay Little) as well-worth reading. Fiddleback is one of those guys that just gets this game, much more IMO than the average gamer.

<snip>

I get an error on the article links. Are they available anywhere else?

Yeah, I noticed that after I posted. Tried to read them, got an error. The GSA has been gone for a while now, which is sad. I asked Fiddleback, who was the editor of the GSA, but he didn't have any copies of the articles posted there before it was taken down. I am now chasing a lead and will let you know if I hear anything :-p

That's odd - I swear it worked for me.

That's odd - I swear it worked for me.

The post links fine: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/77823-dice-pool-outcome-probability-calculator/#entry750729

The articles that Fiddleback linked to, not so much:

http://gsa.thegamernation.org/2013/01/16/nerd-numbers-terminal-outcomes/

http://gsa.thegamernation.org/2013/01/19/nerd-numbers-a-follow-up/

404, both of them.

First: I would submit this post from Fiddbleback (and the articles he links to, written by the game's designer Jay Little) as well-worth reading. Fiddleback is one of those guys that just gets this game, much more IMO than the average gamer.

Great post, thanks. I understand this is a narrative game, and I'm not looking to max out stats and odds at the expense of character and story. However, my argument here is that, narratively, skilled assistance should always be more useful than unskilled assistance.

If you don't take the Triumph into account, then you're gonna get a skewed result when you look at the value of an upgrade versus the value of a Boost. The Triumph is mega-game changing, so I'd say the Yellow die is more potent than the Blue die. Basically you've gotta take Triumphs into account because of what they offer in terms of game mechanical value, AND pure excitement/fun during play, which is the whole point of the game in the first place. So you could say Proficiency dice are more fun than Boost dice

Well...fair enough, then. I must admit I haven't looked at Triumph as much as I have at other aspects of the game. Thanks!

Plus that, there's only a 1/12 chance of getting a null result on a yellow die (better than 1/8 for the Ability die), which is far ahead of the 1/3 chance of a null result on a Boost die. That matters especially when you look at each individual skill check rather than the big-picture game as a while.

Not sure that's true, since a Boost die is rolled alongside an Ability die, whereas a Proficiency die is rolled instead of an Ability die. My maths may be wonky, but I'm pretty sure that you have exactly half the chance of rolling a blank on Ability + Boost (1/24) compared to just Proficiency (1/12).

Remember that if a skill check is all proficiency dice already (say a characteristic of 3 and an skill rank of 3), then upgrading will add an Ability die. So looking at skilled assistance, if one player has an Intellect of 3 and a Computers rank of 3, if his friend with an Intellect of 4 wants to help, he would now be rolling 3 Proficiency dice and 1 Ability die, rather than just 3 Proficiency dice.

I believe outright that a single Ability die is more likely to be beneficial than a single Boost die.

It's best to do skilled assistance with an annoying Drall who gives an extra boost when he does skilled assistance. (And keep it in a locked locker between times! )