Disagree. Damage cancelled is damage not dealt. Thus the price for the ability is never paid and thus the ability is not resolved.

The order is not: deal damage, cancel shadow, cancel damage

The order is: deal damage, cancel damage, do not cancel shadow

That is not how costs work in this game. Dealing the damage is a cost, if you paid the cost then you can cancel the shadow. The fact that a response is then triggered to cancel the damage does not mean that you did not pay the cost. We should wait for a response for Caleb, but I am positive that the Helm works with Erkenbrand.

Disagree. Damage cancelled is damage not dealt. Thus the price for the ability is never paid and thus the ability is not resolved.

The order is not: deal damage, cancel shadow, cancel damage

The order is: deal damage, cancel damage, do not cancel shadow

I find that logic faulty.

You resolve the text entirely at once. You deal damage to cancel shadow. Then, helm reacts to that damage, canceling it. If there was no damage dealt as a cost - there would be nothing to cancel.

I'm not really arguing one way or the other, but does Spirit Frodo kind of make it sound like "dealing damage" is the actually putting damage tokens on him?

As discussed when this card came out, cancelled damage is indeed dealt before it's cancelled, so i think Erkenbrand works.

Spirit Frodo's response is a replacement effect. *Instead of* placing damage tokens, you are raising your threat.

Here is another example to highlight the timing of paying a cost. Say I have Landroval and an Eagles of the Misty Mountains in play. I take an undefended attack which kills a hero and respond with Landroval's ability. The cost of his response trigger is to return him to my hand, so I pay that and my hero immediately returns to play with 1 damage on him. I can then respond to Landroval leaving play with the Eagle of the Misty Mountain's response and *instead of* returning Landroval to my hand I would attach him face down to the Eagles of the Misty Mountains. The fact that Landroval did not end up in my hand does not mean that my hero was not saved. The cost was paid, the fact that another response (with a replacement effect) was triggered after the cost was paid is not relevant to the initial effect of Landroval's ability.

As discussed when this card came out, cancelled damage is indeed dealt before it's cancelled, so i think Erkenbrand works.

In that case if a character has received damage enough to destroy it, is it destroyed before a helm, honor guard, or gondorian discipline would be able to respond? Or is the response before the damage tokens are physically placed on the card?

Yes, damage cancellation essentially intercepts the framework step of placing damage tokens on a character. This does not invalidate anything that happened before, including *dealing* the damage to pay the cost. It does alter effects that trigger after a character is damaged. For example, if you assign damage from an undefended attack from a Muck Adder (http://hallofbeorn.com/Cards/Details/Muck-Adder-CatC) to Beregond, you could respond with Gondorian Discipline and cancel the damage. Damage was assigned, but it was then cancelled. Therefore, Beregond was not damaged and does not need to be discarded.

If Erkenbrand has Steward of Gondor attached, you can use Gondorian Discipline to cancel the damage dealt to pay for his effect and this would not prevent his effect from working.

You guys may well be right - I forgot that the discussion re: Treebeard/Erkenbrand was to do with transferring the damage via Song of Mocking rather than cancelling it outright. That clearly doesn't work as the damage is never dealt, but it may well be that cancelling the damage does. I'd want to hear it from Caleb before declaring myself certain on this point though.

Wow. I am excited for these cards. This looks to be a great AP. They don't seem overpowered, just mechanically interesting. Caleb and Matt are once again on point!

I agree that you can use the helm with Erkenbrand. The helm and other damage cancelling cards like Gondorian Discipline and Close Call specify "Cancel X damage just dealt". The damage has to be dealt (but before it is applied it seems) before you can satisfy the conditions of both responses of Erkenbrand's shadow cancellation and the helm's damage cancellation. Erkenbrand deals damage to himself getting rid of a shadow, and now the helm can be activated to cancel that damage just dealt. They synergize nicely.

They're responses. That's the way they work. I agree the timing structure is awkward, but it always has been in this game.

I'm excited about this set. One thing I'm looking forward to now is more Hobbit heroes that will synergize with the pony. I have a hard time believing they'd let such a mount sneak out if it only works well with this version of Merry. And the helm is AWESOME. It's an auto-include attachment for Beregond.

I understand the pony works well with the new Merry, but I can also see an entire party of hobbits all waiting to commit to the quest until after seeing the staging step. Even better, with a fast hitch as well, they could be knocked off the quest initially only to return with a hitch and a pony.

+ + = KICK SOME ASS

That would be such a ridiculous combo that's not worth it at all... but it would be so worth it to make it happen. Then throw in Forth Eorlingas, some Spears of the Mark and Fast Hitches, and watch your Hobbit wipe the staging area.

The official answer is in. You CANNOT use damage cancellation with Erkenbrand.

Hi Jim,
When a player uses a Response to cancel an effect, the result is that the canceled effect never resolves. For example, when a player uses A Test of Will to cancel the ‘when revealed’ effects of The Necromancer’s Reach, the players do not deal 1 damage to each character in play and then remove 1 damage from each character in play. Instead, no damage is dealt.
Similarly, if you use the Response effect on Raven-winged Helm to cancel the damage just dealt to Erkenbrand after triggering his Response effect, you do not place 1 damage on Erkenbrand and then remove it. Instead, the damage is not dealt at all. In which case, his cost has not been paid and you cannot resolve his effect.
Visually, it looks like this:
Damage is dealt by effect ——> Response effect cancels damage dealt ——> No damage is actually dealt
Cheers,
Caleb

That's what I thought. Otherwise cancelling Necromancer's Reach wouldn't save the characters who already died from receiving the damage because they would no longer be in play to remove the damage. Same with Frodo: you have to prevent the damage from ever hitting him if you want him to stay alive to be able to use his ability. The cancellation response makes it prevent the original effect from ever being fulfilled.

Awesome combo abovema bit ironic that it works best with tactics merry.

The official answer is in. You CANNOT use damage cancellation with Erkenbrand.

Hi Jim,

When a player uses a Response to cancel an effect, the result is that the canceled effect never resolves. For example, when a player uses A Test of Will to cancel the ‘when revealed’ effects of The Necromancer’s Reach, the players do not deal 1 damage to each character in play and then remove 1 damage from each character in play. Instead, no damage is dealt.

Similarly, if you use the Response effect on Raven-winged Helm to cancel the damage just dealt to Erkenbrand after triggering his Response effect, you do not place 1 damage on Erkenbrand and then remove it. Instead, the damage is not dealt at all. In which case, his cost has not been paid and you cannot resolve his effect.

Visually, it looks like this:

Damage is dealt by effect ——> Response effect cancels damage dealt ——> No damage is actually dealt

Cheers,

Caleb

Eh, whatever, I will not follow this ridiculous ruling anyway. And I will not be surprised if it gets changed in the future, like that stuff with Forest Snare being attached to Nameless Thing as a part of it's effect and and actuallty taking effect (i.e. preventing it from attacking).

The ruling could not be more obvious. Of course the damage never happens, otherwise it would be (more or less) useless, and when something never happens, then it cannot be taken as a cost.

I have had Charge of the Rohirrim in my Rohan decks since it came out. I so want the card to work. But it is one of the weakest ones, and it certainly doesn't justify the presence of Steed of the Mark. Nor am I a Stranger is a similar card, though there are more cards to combo with it, of course, and some of them might be justifiable: Astonishing Speed, Forth Éorlingas, even Éomund.

Wow that's a shame. I guess I won't be using Erkenbrand until we get something that actually works with him.

The ruling could not be more obvious. Of course the damage never happens, otherwise it would be (more or less) useless, and when something never happens, then it cannot be taken as a cost.

Yes, it could. There would be nothing for Helm to cancel if the cost wasn't paid. The point is - you paid the cost by issuing that damage, what happens to that damage now is a whole other topic. The whole reason the Helm is able to respond is because the cost have been paid.

Wow that's a shame. I guess I won't be using Erkenbrand until we get something that actually works with him.

We do! It's called "healing" and it's very effective!

I don't think it's an obvious ruling, but it's at least consistent with previous rulings. It's like in Magic or many other CCG/LCGs where the card played last actually triggers first. You never actually dealt the damage to Erkenbrand, so "Deal 1 damage to Erkenbrand to..." never happened and the cost was not paid.

That said, if you want to ignore the ruling nobody is going to stop you.

Also, Erkenbrand is still a beast as long as you have healing.