Let me start with this, when you look at X-Wing there is a list of ships that no longer are played imp wise Fighters, Bombers, Advances, and shuttles. For rebels Y-wings, E-Wings, HWK. (A-wings seems to lose to z-95 when points are added)

With that as the back drop do you think wave 1 ships will become obsolete or is the game balanced much more then x-wing?

Maybe I am over thinking things but after seeing the K-Wing and the death note that is to mainly the Y-wing, and ditto with the punisher to Bomber, could we see that in Armada?

For me, personally, the X-wing squadrons seem to have taken the route of their X-wing TMG counterparts. They get butchered by Tie swarms led by Howlrunner. They shoot 4 dice, Ties shoot back 4 dice with reroll, which is very close to 5-dice potential damage. I may be doing something wrong or just consistently rolling poorly, but I can't kill Ties as fast as they kill my X-wings. At least A-wings are strong in this game.

I think because of the difference in the Points and Scale, it won't be that much of an issue... With Squadrons, most definately - things will have to be significantly different, and pointed appropriately, or they just won't be included...

And I think there will be enough variation in the main ships... I mean, the tiny differences (even in points) between A and B variants of some ships (Looking at you, Nebulon B) still sees both variants on the battlefield, despite being virtually identical. Or one being "mostly the same, just worse and cheaper."

There is always the likely hood of older ships becoming outdated or even replaced for better newer versions. It's something that as horrible as it is, part of the industry. Its too early to tell for sure if that will happen here. I think that Armada's base of ship will remain fairly evenly spread among new and old. Is it possible we will see new re-skinned versions of what we have? Sure. However right now we need to worry more about GETTING each faction up to par and with a verity of small and Large ships to choose from before we have to worry about things becoming obsolete.

Also we are in an interesting place with Star Wars Armada compared to where X-Wing was when it came out. The Extended Universe has been all but abolished. While X-Wing still draws from a lot of it, and Armada has taken some of its ships from there as well Fantasy Flight is in an interesting position of now no longer needing to draw from existing fiction. They could easily begin Creating there own classes of ship that more easily and artistically meet the designs of each faction.

Because lets be honest, for as many interesting and truly thematic Rebel and Imperial ship there was in the Extended Universe, there were DOZENS of misfires and poorly concept-ed ships. They have already shown the desire to make new ships. So I hope once we get past the more Iconic Movie ships (ISD, MC80 Home One, MC80 Liberty) we see better more faction oriented new ships.

The OP in this thread is just full of some epic level misrepresentation and misinformation. Where to start?

The TIE Fighter has not been replaced by anything. It is still a seen and viable option, and nothing has been released that supplants it's position as the cheapest ship option for Imperials.

The TIE Advanced hasn't been replaced because it never was viable to begin with, even when it was only one of two ship options. Subsequent releases had not a thing to do with why it wasn't played. In fact with the upcoming Raider the Advanced might finally see real play.

Shuttles like TIE Fighters are absolutely still seen in high level competitive play.

Y-wings, E-wings, A-wings, and the HWK like the Advanced were not invalidated by subsequent releases, they simply never were seen as viable options even at thier release. A-wings and Y-wings have only seen increased viability with subsequent releases.

I mean you are here asserting that the K-wing is the death of the Y-wing as if it has already happened. We just got the first K-wing PREVIEW today. What kind of absurd knee-jerk reaction is that? Especially since in the thread on the X-wing boards talking about the K-wing preview there is alot of buzz over what that release has for the Y-Wing itself.

I just don't see in what way you can assert what you've asserted in this thread in regards to X-wing. Your conclusions are just based on things that are not true for even that game, and you are trying to extrapolate thier ramifications for an entirely different game? This is just absurd.

I don't want to see non-stop releases for Armada like X Wing did. That is definitely one of my turn offs for that game... felt stale or left out entirely when you couldn't swing the cost for new ships every few months, never mind the desire for multiples of most ships. I can deal with 1 maybe 2 waves in a year tops.

I agree with Scottie, who's giving her all she's got. Also, the K-wing is garbage as a straight up fighter or control ship because it's so horribly expensive. the Y-wing will slap it around as a straight combat ship and will probably be the one using the TLTs packaged with the K. Likewise, the bomber is an incredibly points-efficient ship that can do well naked. The punisher is not.

I also believe Armada is simply more mechanically sound.

FFG learned very well from X-wing, and will not repeat the same mistakes (proof: no green dice!)

I'm not going to retire any ships. I can't wait to try out an ISD flanked by VSDs or GSDs or even a group of raiders. But, then we get to play with 400 points and we begin seeing people squeezing every last ship and fighter into their list.

No sir, I say all ships in Armada will continue to be viable. The fun, is in figuring out how.

Let me start with this, when you look at X-Wing there is a list of ships that no longer are played imp wise Fighters, Bombers, Advances, and shuttles. For rebels Y-wings, E-Wings, HWK. (A-wings seems to lose to z-95 when points are added)

With that as the back drop do you think wave 1 ships will become obsolete or is the game balanced much more then x-wing?

Maybe I am over thinking things but after seeing the K-Wing and the death note that is to mainly the Y-wing, and ditto with the punisher to Bomber, could we see that in Armada?

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

I'm planning on doing reserve matches once we get a few waves behind us. In a reserve match you would build a large fleet, (Say 1200 points), but you can only field 400 points worth of units at any one time... and you can only use each model once.

I think that would give a good chance to use all the ships in my Armada. Maybe see how older units fair against newer ones.

The OP in this thread is just full of some epic level misrepresentation and misinformation. Where to start?

The TIE Fighter has not been replaced by anything. It is still a seen and viable option, and nothing has been released that supplants it's position as the cheapest ship option for Imperials.

The TIE Advanced hasn't been replaced because it never was viable to begin with, even when it was only one of two ship options. Subsequent releases had not a thing to do with why it wasn't played. In fact with the upcoming Raider the Advanced might finally see real play.

Shuttles like TIE Fighters are absolutely still seen in high level competitive play.

Y-wings, E-wings, A-wings, and the HWK like the Advanced were not invalidated by subsequent releases, they simply never were seen as viable options even at thier release. A-wings and Y-wings have only seen increased viability with subsequent releases.

I mean you are here asserting that the K-wing is the death of the Y-wing as if it has already happened. We just got the first K-wing PREVIEW today. What kind of absurd knee-jerk reaction is that? Especially since in the thread on the X-wing boards talking about the K-wing preview there is alot of buzz over what that release has for the Y-Wing itself.

I just don't see in what way you can assert what you've asserted in this thread in regards to X-wing. Your conclusions are just based on things that are not true for even that game, and you are trying to extrapolate thier ramifications for an entirely different game? This is just absurd.

Hey ScottieATF thanks for the post. I want to address a couple of things. first "This is just absurd" my wife just told me that so it's true.

Second I speak from the experience I know. The last torny I was in March not one of those those ships I listed where played. It's not that I meant to mislead or try to miss inform. I fight tooth and nail for the principle that 100 points of ships is just as good as any other 100 point list, I get shouted down in the x-wing forum. Again Bombers, Advances, Y-wings and Hwks are not part of the Torny settings. Maybe fighter but when a phantom can do the work of 2 fighters most people here don't use them.

Look my main concern is Aramda will be more of all ships not just current or hot. Again sorry if it seemed missleading the intent was not. (I love the shuttle but here most people Run a vt-49 over a shuttle, I still think 4 shuttles with ion turtled is the best way to fly)

Ummmm Large ships are not going to replace small ships. I can almost guarentee that large ships will get eaten alive by smaller ships of they are not careful. Maybe in the far future we may lose the viability of the CR90 or such but I doubt it because most things will be upgrade cards.

We also are likely to see further variants of these current ships, class 3's and 4's, C's and D's, etc

But you are misleading and missinforming. Every ship that you mentioned as being supplanted by newer releases either has not been supplanted by newer releases or has actual seen an increase in viability due to subsequent releases. And part of your misinformation is the assertion about a new ship that has only been previewed, not played, and which actually adds options to the ship your are claiming is being invalidated. That is what is particularly absurd. It has nothing to do with the concept that every 100pts of ship's are equal to ever other 100pts, because that simply isn't true. It has to due with the fact that you are making unsubstantiated allusions to X-wing which are simply not true.

Those ships that you name as not being part of the competitive scene, we're never apart of the competitive scene. They were not supplanted by anything, they weren't viable to begin with. Furthermore the Y-wing is absolutely bow seeing play in a competitive setting, because subsequent releases have made it more viable that in orginally was.

There has been one ship on X-wing, the X-wing, that was in many ways replaced by a later release, the B-wing. They occupy the same role and are near the same cost. And even then the named X-Wings are still seen in competitive play.

If anything, actually looking at X-wing, you have even less of a reason for concerns. As time after time lesser used ships have been significantly buffed by subsequent releases. In a manner that has made many non-viable options at thier own release viable.

The Advanced, Interceptor, Y-wing, and A-wing are all examples of ship's that have only been improved, not invalidated by subsequent releases.

I suspect that vanilla ships will disappear over time (without titles). This is simply because the titles add so much to each ship.

However, I suspect Yavaris, Salvation, and Demolisher will remain competitive for the foreseeable future.

The future of the Victory is highly suspect, as it is so slow. The speed 3 Imperial SD could easily replace it depending on number of clicks.

CR90s, well I think there is always space for the cheapest capital ship. The titles are decent as well, but nowhere as OP as the ones mentioned above.

I haven't played X-wing, but it sounds like the takeaway is that FFG takes their underperforming ships and buffs them in later releases with upgrades that work well for them. That sounds like a neat balancing method.

I do get Cubanboy's concern though. I've definetely played other games where this happened to certain units, or cards, or what have you. But it seems like FFG has a decent track record with this kind of thing, based soley on the vehemence of Scottie's reply.

Power creep is a legitimate concern since FFG would want us to keep buying new stuff even as tournaments would eventually demonstrate which ships/fighters are "good" or "bad". With good design, it can be delayed but like most games with a tournament scene, it's gonna be inevitable.

For some of us, it has more to do with our emotional connection to iconic ships/fighters. We want them to be always relevant. We want them because they're a large part of why we love Star Wars. To see them lose out to newfangled EU stuff is always gonna be a little sad but we play on.

Let me start with this, when you look at X-Wing there is a list of ships that no longer are played imp wise Fighters, Bombers, Advances, and shuttles. For rebels Y-wings, E-Wings, HWK. (A-wings seems to lose to z-95 when points are added)

With that as the back drop do you think wave 1 ships will become obsolete or is the game balanced much more then x-wing?

Maybe I am over thinking things but after seeing the K-Wing and the death note that is to mainly the Y-wing, and ditto with the punisher to Bomber, could we see that in Armada?

Regardless what is going on over in X-Wing country . . . I have no experience with that game . . . any game (board game, table top, cards, video games, whatever) that makes money by way of the evolution of said game will experience power creep in some form. Maybe it will be subtle, maybe not. That doesn't mean old minis will necessarily be obsolete. Often times they will just phase in and out of the meta game based on new synergies or upgrades. Other times they remain viable, but just not as potent as they once were. And even still, sometimes a mini is crap when it's released, but becomes a contender due to a later expansion. Power creep of course is a double edged sword wielded by game companies, but it's one that isn't ever going to go away so long as it's lucrative. All you can really hope for is that FFG uses it responsibly, which so far it seems like they are.

Let me start with this, when you look at X-Wing there is a list of ships that no longer are played imp wise Fighters, Bombers, Advances, and shuttles. For rebels Y-wings, E-Wings, HWK. (A-wings seems to lose to z-95 when points are added)

With that as the back drop do you think wave 1 ships will become obsolete or is the game balanced much more then x-wing?

Maybe I am over thinking things but after seeing the K-Wing and the death note that is to mainly the Y-wing, and ditto with the punisher to Bomber, could we see that in Armada?

Not sure how you state a list that is no longer played. Simply, your list is not true, even competitively we are seeing a lot of those ships. In fact with scum releases, Y wings and Hawks are having a great resurgence if anything. Ewings, tie fighters shuttles and advanced have always filled the respective roles and are regularly seen as before. Advanced you will be seeing a how lot more soon. So the premise is entirely inaccurate.

Guess I suck at life

Titles will be important to ships in the future that is for certain. I see named ship packs being sold like the X-Wing Ace packs.

As for power creep, I think people are over thinking this. Will certain ships be better than others? In certain tactical senses yes. When will this occur? Likely waves 4 and up will se see the power creep take place. Wave 3 will likely show us the importance of balanced building.

What will show us these things will be world's and the regional following that. That is where my interest is. I want to see other fleet builders and tactician and see how I fare.

I think all current ships will still see plenty of action. Neb B's all the way

X-Wing has just one mission, Armada has 12, and I think that will cause a wider metagame and will in turn keep various ships and squadrons in use far longer.

Where we may find a big change to the metagame and some change that bumps in/out older game pieces is with respect to the Upgrade Cards that see common use. The fact that at this time there is still a general lack of consensus regarding various aspects of the fleet builds is at least some indication that there is far more scope to this than X-Wing seems to have.

I'm planning on doing reserve matches once we get a few waves behind us. In a reserve match you would build a large fleet, (Say 1200 points), but you can only field 400 points worth of units at any one time... and you can only use each model once.I think that would give a good chance to use all the ships in my Armada. Maybe see how older units fair against newer ones.

I like this. Perhaps a suggestion making this even better:

Build your 1200 point fleet. But instead of always playing 400 points, make this variable. Throw a die and get a battle size somewhere between 200 (or 250) and 400/500 points.

Of course, you would need wave 2 for valid low point battles

I would love to see more EU craft and FFG created craft in this game. I feel that with capital ships it is much easier to create new well balanced designs without invalidating the older ones and I love many of the new ships they've made for the RPG. They've created most of my favorite Star Wars ship designs that were introduced in the 21st century and I hope they make a lot more. (Unfortunately most of my favorite from their inventory of creations probably won't be in Armada unless and until they make a scum faction.)

I would recommend that instead of one model you limit it by sizes so 1-2 large ships of X point cost, 2-3 medium ships of X point cost, and 3-4 medium ships of X point costs.

You can split it up from there for ships