FYI, I can't remember the page, but a similar situation in talked about in the Dangerous Covenants book, and it states to still roll initiative. It's under ambushes I think.

*snip novel*

You may disagree that it is passive, but there it, word for word, is in the description itself telling you that it is a constant, passive skill, just like Listen/Spot checks in older d20 systems. Any GM who requires actions to passively sense the world around you (aside from special power/abilities which require activation) deserves majority of the book collection thrown his/her way. The skill itself represents how well your character maintains careful awareness. Due to the academy I can tell you that I perceive a whole heck of a lot more of my surroundings than majority of my companions and I don't try to. It just naturally happens due to the training I've had.

As for the Perform Skill Check action... it refers to making a check that actually requires your attention. Noticing the guy sneaking up behind you should never require an action, as it is passive. "You hear a twig snap." Actively searching the room for the man you know is hiding however probably should. "You peer around the room trying to determine where he went." There is a very large difference between something that your character has to spend time focusing on and something that just happens.

My part on the "bad feeling" is more that telling the player that he has a bad feeling just to throw into structured play and then limit what he can do is not a good path to start down IMHO. In your example, I could see if he had made a perception check and failed, but with advantages that he knows something is just about to go down. Now he has the opportunity to have his character actively search again (spend an action doing so). I, as a player, would be pretty ticked if my super perceptive character always got the shaft because my GM kept making us enter structured play before I had a chance to notice something/someone.

I personally have always followed the good old advice of, "If one party is completely unaware of the other do it narratively." There's no reason that a GM shouldn't be able to have a good sense of what the baddies are doing behind the veil while the party does there thing. Once the brown stuff hits the oscillating device, then it's time for structured.

First off, this is an option, there's plenty of times when I would allow a "free" perception check for this or that.

Second, this game doesn't have surprise rounds. So the initial example you gave has a bit of a hole there. Just a matter of different mechanics, but people get hung up on the surprise round and that can get misleading.

Third, this is also something that would work both ways. NPC ambushing a PC and PC ambushing an NPC. There's lots more details to be had (preliminary stealth checks, bonuses and setbacks for this or that, ect) but the point is rolling initiative and being aware of the start of combat aren't mutually inclusive concepts. It's just assumed they should be because other games, like ones with surprise rounds, make it seem like it should be.

Finally, yeah, by the end of the first round everyone should know combat has begun. While there's always an exception to the rule, generally speaking if you've gone more then one combat round without combating, you're probably doing it wrong. There's fine details to be had (the ambushee's might not know WHERE the shooting is coming from, how many enemies they are up against, who those enemies are, ect) but the bullet/bolts/arrows should be flying and the situation should be pretty clear. Also worth a reminder at this point that EotE rounds can be quite longer then D&D rounds...

EoTE pg 115 "If a character is unprepared for a trap or an ambush, he may have an opportunity to make a Perception check to avoid being surprised."

That's why I love this system. There are rules in place for detecting ambushes and it refers to being surprised on failure. What is surprised? As I said before, there is no set rules on that. I just said what I generally do in my groups. Avy above shines light on how great that is above this post. There are just so many options available for GMs.

Maybe surprised means that you are stunned from shock, or your attacker gets boost dice, etc etc etc. Now take that and combine it with the Destiny Pool and the results really are darn near limitless!

TL;DR Version

The whole purpose of me posting in this thread was to point out that while everyone is coming up with complicated ways to determine how well an ambush is and what boost/setback dice should go where, and how many different complicated checks need to be made for initiative, etc, there is already simple easy rules in play... Make whatever check GM deems appropriate for setting it up, and oppose with perception to avoid being surprised.

FYI, I can't remember the page, but a similar situation in talked about in the Dangerous Covenants book, and it states to still roll initiative. It's under ambushes I think.

Pg 80. Really just states that certain environmental conditions should be considered when setting up, defending PCs should be given only limited info before initiative, both sides still roll, and a reminder that said conditions should apply setback dice to perception checks to discover attackers' actions/details/location. Essentially nothing new

FYI, I can't remember the page, but a similar situation in talked about in the Dangerous Covenants book, and it states to still roll initiative. It's under ambushes I think.

Pg 80. Really just states that certain environmental conditions should be considered when setting up, defending PCs should be given only limited info before initiative, both sides still roll, and a reminder that said conditions should apply setback dice to perception checks to discover attackers' actions/details/location. Essentially nothing new

I think it's actually very helpful in giving suggestions to the GM on how to handle ambushes. "Chaotic uncertainty" is the key. I had never read that bit, but it really confirms to me that we're on the right track here.

We roll before. When it's absolutely planned out that we are trying to surprise our opponent, the GM adds Boosts. If we're walking into a set trap, we get Setbacks.

Well before the initiative check, we/they probably got Perception rolls to spot something that would reduce or eliminate the bonus dice.

Perception is active if we're asking to find or notice something that we normally wouldn't notice passively, passive if no effort would be required to notice but could still be missed, or not required if it's obvious but just has't been mentioned (like the controls for a bridge being next to the bridge). Advantages sometimes reveal extra info, too. One advantage on any roll lets someone notice additional info or notice something important.

Even if you do roll Initiative before the sniping, it doesn't necessarily mean the NPC spotted the PC sniper.

If the NPC's slot comes up first, that doesn't mean they necessarily KNOW they're in combat. You could give them the benefit of an additional Vigilance check as the NPC's action on that turn... if they succeed, THEN they might spot the PC sniper or possibly even just do something that makes sniping more difficult.

They could walk under an awning, get into a vehicle, move into a crowd of people...

Then when the PC sniper's turn comes up, they can make their attack with a Setback die or two.

As one of our house rules we changed the way we role for initiative. We now do it by bandwith where the action is beginning. So if a brawl starts then everyone in the engaged range would role for vigilance. So if person A is going to punch person B, then they would both role vigilance. That way if Person B won, then they could move out of the way before Person A hits them. If person A roled higher then the hit would land. After they had roled then everybody in the short range would role. We do this because it's the reaction times and how fast do you notice something happening. Sometimes it takes you a while to notice.

Now in some talents it gives upgrades to roling during intiative. We changed that so it means you can role a range closer because your reaction is faster. So if Person C was in the long range, but had a talent that raise his initiative, then he would roll with the people in the medium range.

In the case of the sniper, the sniper and the person getting hit would roll. I would give the sniper an advantage for being sneaky, but they would both role. That way maybe the guy getting shot at moves right at the last instance. Then everyone around the person getting shot would roll too. But if I had someone who had very good vigiliance and had an upgraded talent, he could then role with the sniper and the person being shot at. Maybe he would notice the sniper and hit the guy out of the way.

As one of our house rules we changed the way we role for initiative. We now do it by bandwith where the action is beginning.

Why? What part of how combat is done in by RAW is broken that it needs to be fixed by adding this crunch and complexity?

What is it that you’re trying to do with this change?

Roll vigilance. That represents how vigilant you are about your surroundings if you win you see the ambush coming and should have a clues as to what you need to do if not an actual details.