If a PC snipes an NPC resulting in combat, do you...

A) Roll for initiative before the PC takes the shot.

B) Roll for initiative after the PC takes the shot.

If the answer is "B", does the PC that took the shot get a slot in the initiative order, or do you consider that 1st shot as the 1st slot in the initiative order?

The book doesn't really get into the mechanics of an ambush, and doesn't have 'surprise' rules. So go with what you like. I personally would say if the PCs are in a position to take a shot completely unaware to the NPCs and I've given the NPCs either a chance to spot them or not, just have the PCs take the shot and then roll initiative with Cool per the rules.

To expound a bit on 2P51's post with my own thoughts:

Generally speaking, all things being equal, I'd say the idea is you'd have the sniping PC roll Cool, and based on how the initiative rolls played out, they either get to make a combat check in the first initiative slot, or if the NPCs get to go first, perhaps they either spotted the sniper (a very high Vigilance roll) or (in the case of a very low Cool roll) the sniper "missed" his shot, giving away his position (or at least letting the NPCs on to his presence).

However, if the sniping is happening as the result of very good roleplaying and/or skill checking, like Stealth, Skulduggery, or Perception checks to get into a good position, then I'd be inclined allow a combat check before initiative is rolled.

My interpretation would be have each character roll initiative prior to the shot being made, with the NPC using vigilance and the PC using Cool. If the NPC wins, the NPC gets a chance to notice the PC (with appropriate modifiers for range, will likely not succeed, but would make for an action) and otherwise continues on unawares that the PC is there. If the PC wins, or when it's his turn, he can make the shot or not depending on the NPC's actions. That way, the flow of combat isn't interrupted in the event that the shot doesn't down the NPC. You already have initiative slots down, and you are just continuing on from there.

A) Roll for initiative before the PC takes the shot.

Technically this is correct, however there's some in-systems solutions to get the results you want, namely the issue of "If I'm shooting him unawares, how does initiative fit?"

Options:

1. Use boost/setback to give the shoot a bonus or the shootee a disadvantage on the check.
2. Winning does not mean Awareness of combat. Just because the shootee gets to go first doen't mean he know's he's in combat. He might be allowed a perception check on his turn, and then if he passes he can do something, but that's an action so it's maneuvers only for him.
3. Make use of the skill options and mechanics: Shooter rolls flat Cool, Shootee roll Vigiliance vs. Shooter's Stealth.

See, you just have to leverage things to fit the encounter. It's not as confusing as some people seem to want to make it.

What I have been doing is permitting the attack - then expiring that PC slot after initiative.

1. Sneak attack.

2. Initiative - NPC vigilance and PC cool

3. 1st PC slot is expired by the sneak attack so proceed to 2nd slot.

I go with this:

You still roll Initiative but if the PCs are setting up an Ambush (which is basically what the OP is describing) they roll their relevant Skill (Survival or something else that makes sense for the scene) against a Difficulty determined by how good the area is adding Setbacks or Boosts depending on Environmental conditions prior to the Initiative roll.

Strait Success and the PC's get to choose the location and set up.
Success + Advantages = the above plus can add any Boosts to everyone's Initiative Roll (or Setbacks to the opposing rolls) or add them to their First Action.

Success + Triumph = Automatically go first in the Initiative order.

Failure/Threats/Despair = Opposite of above.

Most of the time when the PC's Succeed they get off the first shot (Win the Initiative) but sometimes they don't and I describe it as something gave them away just before combat started. This is how I've done it and it's worked out just fine.

Edit: The above is also how I deal with Stealth (using the Stealth Skill), setting up a Con, basically any time the Player's want to use a Skill to affect an upcoming situation or another Skill roll.

I mostly do the same as FuriousGreg, above. The PCs (or whoever is setting up the ambush) makes a Stealth check, and the better they roll the more boost dice they get on their Initiative check later.

The only thing I do different is that if the NPCs still win Initiative it doesn't necessarily mean they spotted the PCs and the ambush is blown. I narrate it that they just "get a bad feeling about this" and use their actions/manoeuvres to draw weapons, take cover, activate talents, and so on. Provided the PCs didn't actually fail their Stealth check the NPCs haven't seen them, so they can't start making combat checks, but they get to prepare themselves for combat.

Why not just follow what's already in the books?

Roll cool for Sniper and vigilance for NPC.
NPC uses perception to detect ambush if feasible.

NPC gets to act as normal if perception check succeeds, is surprised if it fails.

Continue combat as normal.

Added Note: Surprise term has purposely been left vague so it's up to the GM and can vary from situation to situation. I generally completely skip minions who are surprised but allow PCs and major NPCs who are surprised to take a maneuver. That way a high vigilance roll might fluff as noticing something to give you just enough time to dive for cover even though they got the jump on you.

Depends on the situation. If it is a major villain and encounter, I would call for the initiative BEFORE the shot - then the player can take aim actions, as well as I can upgrade dice if need be. If the opponents are minor foes or mooks, then I would do after the shot.

Whatever suits the story, and on a case by case basis.

Why not just follow what's already in the books?

Roll cool for Sniper and vigilance for NPC.

NPC uses perception to detect ambush if feasible.

NPC gets to act as normal if perception check succeeds, is surprised if it fails.

Continue combat as normal.

Added Note: Surprise term has purposely been left vague so it's up to the GM and can vary from situation to situation. I generally completely skip minions who are surprised but allow PCs and major NPCs who are surprised to take a maneuver. That way a high vigilance roll might fluff as noticing something to give you just enough time to dive for cover even though they got the jump on you.

Thank you. You say it, and then I know it.

Once in structured play, I would not allow a "free" Perception check from the NPC. He should use his action to do so, and then he can take maneuvers as normal. No Perception check (an action) and then another skill check (another action).

Agreed, after all that the whole point of Perception vs Vigilance.

Perception: He notices his head is about to get some long distance ventilation.

Vigiliance: He notices his head is about to get some long distance ventilation in time to actually do something about it.

Agreed, after all that the whole point of Perception vs Vigilance.

Perception: He notices his head is about to get some long distance ventilation.

Vigiliance: He notices his head is about to get some long distance ventilation in time to actually do something about it.

I'd say Perception: He gets some details on who/what is about to shoot him, maybe even what weapon is being used. Still doesn't help in the reaction speed aspect.

Agreed, after all that the whole point of Perception vs Vigilance.

Perception: He notices his head is about to get some long distance ventilation.

Vigiliance: He notices his head is about to get some long distance ventilation in time to actually do something about it.

I'd say Perception: He gets some details on who/what is about to shoot him, maybe even what weapon is being used. Still doesn't help in the reaction speed aspect.

LOL

"Oh look, that man has Tenloss Type 89 disruptor pistol... man I haven't see one of those in ages, didn't Tenloss stop producing them because the overcharge bearings kept overh-"*VAPE*

Once in structured play, I would not allow a "free" Perception check from the NPC. He should use his action to do so, and then he can take maneuvers as normal. No Perception check (an action) and then another skill check (another action).

Perception to detect the ambush? Lol, I can see it now.

"You open fire on the troopers! Luckily for you it seems this squad has sustained too many blows to the head recently as they stand around dumbfounded unable to detect they are under attack. They stand around dumbfounded for the next few rounds as you finish them off. Poor sods..."

Agreed, after all that the whole point of Perception vs Vigilance.

Perception: He notices his head is about to get some long distance ventilation.

Vigiliance: He notices his head is about to get some long distance ventilation in time to actually do something about it.

Except that perception is explicitly used to detect an ambush and vigilance roll could result in acting first, acting last, or something in between.

Failed perception before initiative, let's assume acting first = Your party is walking through the square, suddenly blasters are aimed your direction and they open fire! *rolls initiative* Luckily you are able to dive for cover before they have a chance to hit you.

Succeeded perception before initiative, again assuming acting first = As you make your way through the crowd you notice something amiss. You meet the gaze of one of the vendors and he nervously glances down to a blaster he is trying to conceal. It's a trap! *rolls initiative* You're able to get the jump on him and quickly draw your blaster leaving him smoldering on the ground before you run into the nearby alleyway. That was close, hopefully you can lose them!

Roll normal initiative, but have target roll Vigilance vs Stealth/Survival of ambusher(s) using the results as initiative.

Agreed, after all that the whole point of Perception vs Vigilance.

Perception: He notices his head is about to get some long distance ventilation.

Vigiliance: He notices his head is about to get some long distance ventilation in time to actually do something about it.

Except that perception is explicitly used to detect an ambush and vigilance roll could result in acting first, acting last, or something in between.

Failed perception before initiative, let's assume acting first = Your party is walking through the square, suddenly blasters are aimed your direction and they open fire! *rolls initiative* Luckily you are able to dive for cover before they have a chance to hit you.

Succeeded perception before initiative, again assuming acting first = As you make your way through the crowd you notice something amiss. You meet the gaze of one of the vendors and he nervously glances down to a blaster he is trying to conceal. It's a trap! *rolls initiative* You're able to get the jump on him and quickly draw your blaster leaving him smoldering on the ground before you run into the nearby alleyway. That was close, hopefully you can lose them!

Doesn't explicitly say you get a free Perception check to detect said ambush though.

So technically the following is a valid use:

GM:Ok, Roll Vig for initiative

Player: What? Umm ok, 3:1

GM: Congrats you go first!

Player:.....Well do I see anyone attacking me?

GM:No, but you have a feeling like poop is about to get real.

Player: Ok.. Perception to see how real?

GM: 2 Purple 2 Black

Player: *Roll roll* 2 Success and a Threat

GM: You see a glint of light off a scope coming from the tower under construction down the street. It's stressful so, 1 strain.

Player:Ok, that's real... I draw and fire!

GM: You already burned an action to make that Perception check.

Player: Ok, in that case I dive for cover and spend 2 strain to draw!

GM: Ok, the guy in the construction shoots, luckily you noticed him in time, so his Quick Strike talent bonuses don't apply.

Doesn't explicitly say you get a free Perception check to detect said ambush though.

So technically the following is a valid use:

GM:Ok, Roll Vig for initiative

Player: What? Umm ok, 3:1

GM: Congrats you go first!

Player:.....Well do I see anyone attacking me?

GM:No, but you have a feeling like poop is about to get real.

Player: Ok.. Perception to see how real?

GM: 2 Purple 2 Black

Player: *Roll roll* 2 Success and a Threat

GM: You see a glint of light off a scope coming from the tower under construction down the street. It's stressful so, 1 strain.

Player:Ok, that's real... I draw and fire!

GM: You already burned an action to make that Perception check.

Player: Ok, in that case I dive for cover and spend 2 strain to draw!

GM: Ok, the guy in the construction shoots, luckily you noticed him in time, so his Quick Strike talent bonuses don't apply.

Not to argue, as every group can use what works best, but I've never liked GMs who treat perception checks as something you need to actively choose to do. "I'm sorry but you didn't say you were sniffing as you walked so you missed the smell of the rotting zombie behind you! *snickers* roll initiative and the zombie gets a surprise round!" is not a very fun way to play.

Especially since there has never been a game that I know of in which you need to actively announce that you are perceiving the world around you. Edge of The Empire included...see below.

EoTE pg 114, "The Perception skill represents the character's constant, passive state of awareness. This is how a character notices concealed or subtle cues when he is not actively seeking them out."

Added note: There are times in which you would want to have a PC make an active check, but for the most part it's a passive skill.

Also, I would never have my players roll initiative without them knowing the reason. I'm pretty sure my players would kneecap me after the second or third game of Roll Imitative and Wonder Why For The Next 5 or 6 Rounds. If the PCs are unaware of a threat, just keep things narrative. Even as a GM I couldn't imagine enjoying my players having to describe how they move down a hallway turn after turn because there's an ambush waiting at the end. Not to mention the Pandora's box of meta-gaming that style of play opens up.

Conversation only reinforces my opinion, ambush and surprise are conspiculously absent from the rules.

I never really cared for the whole 2 skills for initiative and Perception as well. It really does make it three skills. Too many layers of complexity for my tastes for an initiative roll.

So technically the following is a valid use:

GM:Ok, Roll Vig for initiative

Player: What? Umm ok, 3:1

GM: Congrats you go first!

Player:.....Well do I see anyone attacking me?

GM:No, but you have a feeling like poop is about to get real.

Player: Ok.. Perception to see how real?

GM: 2 Purple 2 Black

Player: *Roll roll* 2 Success and a Threat

GM: You see a glint of light off a scope coming from the tower under construction down the street. It's stressful so, 1 strain.

Player:Ok, that's real... I draw and fire!

GM: You already burned an action to make that Perception check.

Player: Ok, in that case I dive for cover and spend 2 strain to draw!

GM: Ok, the guy in the construction shoots, luckily you noticed him in time, so his Quick Strike talent bonuses don't apply.

A very Star-Warsy "bad feeling" is certainly a good narrative tool for the GM in the above scenario. So I'd be careful of detracting from such a great narrative opportunity: it can be a terrific tool if used with discernment and if you frame it in such a way that the players have fun.

And there are any number of ways to "notice" the ambush. For example...

• GM calls for Perception before initiative is rolled. Failure means you roll Vigilance; Success might mean you roll Cool, plus any number of benefits depending on the degree of Success. For example, maybe you detect the ambush long before it is put into play, allowing you some clandestine maneuvers of your own to prepare.
• You roll a Triumph on your Vigilance initiative check, which the GM uses to tell you "It's a trap!"
• You are in structured play already (or even outside of it!) and use some Advantage to "notice something important," at which point the GM tells you that there's someone up on that ridge...
• The GM uses Threat or Despair generated by the would-be shooter to inform you of his presence.

Not to argue, as every group can use what works best, but I've never liked GMs who treat perception checks as something you need to actively choose to do. "I'm sorry but you didn't say you were sniffing as you walked so you missed the smell of the rotting zombie behind you! *snickers* roll initiative and the zombie gets a surprise round!" is not a very fun way to play.

I completely agree. However, I'm talking about inside structured play, which is turn-based and in which you get one skill check (which is synonymous with one action) per turn. In narrative play, absolutely the GM should be calling for Perception checks. And obviously every group is different and every GM has his own personal preferences, but we all like Star Wars (or else we wouldn't be playing it) and I think that there's room in Star Wars for the sort of thing Ghostofman is describing. In measured doses, of course.

Especially since there has never been a game that I know of in which you need to actively announce that you are perceiving the world around you. Edge of The Empire included...see below.

EoTE pg 114, "The Perception skill represents the character's constant, passive state of awareness. This is how a character notices concealed or subtle cues when he is not actively seeking them out."

Added note: There are times in which you would want to have a PC make an active check...

Indeed, as the Core Rulebook calls out: "Perception can be used in surveillance situations, in which the user is trying to observe an unaware target from a distance." But I would disagree with the assertion that it is for the most part "a passive skill," at least in the sense that it is used passively and doesn't require any intentionality on the part of the PCs. One should take into consideration the entire description of the Perception skill, including the opening line: "Characters must often maintain a careful awareness of their environment."

I think there's a bit of a paradigm that must be established when it comes to this system. And that is, when you're in structured (turn-based) play, you only get one skill check per turn.* This means that, if a player is presented with a scenario like "You've got a bad feeling about this," he's got several things he could do with his turn right off the bat, depending on his character's motivations and personality: Perception to maintain a careful awareness, Vigilance to be ready for anything, Skulduggery to recognize that this is a place that he would be likely to try something dastardly against an enemy, Stealth to hide because he's afraid, Athletics to run away really fast because he's afraid, Knowledge (Warfare) to recognize an ambush or trap opportunity at the last minute, Leadership to be the self-sacrificing hero and use his turn to get his comrades to safety and calmly, Cool to discreetly draw a weapon or make other preparations, Streetwise to act on a hunch and look for the best cover opportunity, Coordination to be hard to hit (with flexibility and grace).

Then there's many Force powers and talents that can also be enacted upon having a "bad feeling" but with no readily apparent enemies. And of course you can always trade an action for a maneuver if you simply want to respond to the "bad feeling" by taking cover or moving behind one of your allies Or using the Bodyguard talent, etc.

Bottom line, a skill check is (generally) equivalent with an action, and in structured play you generally only get one of those per turn (generally). I don't think Perception checks should be treated any differently. You can make the check and then narrate it however you like, based on your degree of success and anything else generated by the check. Perhaps your heightened awareness puts everyone else on guard and gives you all improved cover, or whatever. And again there are other ways for the GM to give you pertinent information that doesn't require a Perception check, like Advantage and Triumph; as well as Threat, Despair, Failure on the part of NPCs.

Also, I would never have my players roll initiative without them knowing the reason. I'm pretty sure my players would kneecap me after the second or third game of Roll Imitative and Wonder Why For The Next 5 or 6 Rounds. If the PCs are unaware of a threat, just keep things narrative. Even as a GM I couldn't imagine enjoying my players having to describe how they move down a hallway turn after turn because there's an ambush waiting at the end.

Certainly, but the reason for rolling initiative could be, "You've got a bad feeling about this."

(big, blanket assumption ahead!) I don't think anyone on the forums here would say that this sort of thing should continue for any longer than the first combat round. Personally, I would say that (in such a situation) the NPC's first turn should reveal their presence conclusively, since you're rolling initiative for combat turns, not sneaking and perceiving turns.

Even so, to play devil's advocate, I'm sure there could be room in a structured play setting for NPCs to be doing something in the shadows/out of sight while the PCs are unaware of such things and are busy with other tasks.

At any rate, dismissing this sort of option out of hand is unnecessary because it precludes a possible fun-making idea.

Not to mention the Pandora's box of meta-gaming that style of play opens up.

Ehh...a failed Perception check performed in narrative play can do that, too. Meta-gaming should be kept in check by the GM and the players alike, in the interests of suspension of disbelief, fun for all, and just general good cinematic flavor. So while I agree with the above, I don't think that this sort of option should be blacklisted on the basis of the possibility of meta-gaming.

BUT, if that's what you're worried about, then a final suggestion could be to take a page out of the Beginner Games. They set up the first combat scene with pre-determined initiative slots based on how well the PCs performed prior to the encounter. So if GM calls for Perception and nobody notices the NPC shooter, you can give him an automatic "first initiative slot" and then slot in the other characters as appropriate, perhaps using the Passive Check variant rules (p 322) or any other method.

*That is, unless there's some powerful talent that lets you do a specific action as a maneuver in exchange for taking strain (like Supreme Inspiring Rhetoric). There's also the Squad & Squadron rules from the GM Kit which allow specific Leadership checks to be performed as maneuvers. But allowing any number of skill checks to be performed as maneuvers or incidentals is that you start bloating the encounter with Advantage/Triumph, and that can be a very unbalancing factor.

Conversation only reinforces my opinion, ambush and surprise are conspiculously absent from the rules.

I never really cared for the whole 2 skills for initiative and Perception as well. It really does make it three skills. Too many layers of complexity for my tastes for an initiative roll.

It's hard to argue when opinions are in the mix But I'll share mine just the same.

1. Saying ambush and surprise are absent from the rules is like saying that grappling is absent from the rules. In that, there are ways to deal with them, but they aren't a clearly defined set of separate rules to specifically call out what exactly happens when a character is "Surprised." So unlike d20, you don't automatically apply the Flat Footed condition when a character is Surprised as a result of a failed Perception check. Instead, you interpret the results of the Perception check in light of this rules system...

For example, a Perception check: 3eA+3eD 0 successes, 1 threat

GM says: "Not only do you not see the approaching attacker, you are completely unaware of any danger because your mind is on that nerf steak you've got marinating at home. Roll a Simple (-) Vigilance check, and include a Setback die."

If you rolled multiple Threat or a Despair, the GM could perhaps apply any result on the top of the Critical Injury Result list (without actually giving him the injury in question): Slowed Down, Sudden Jolt, Distracted, Off-Balance, Stunned, and Stinger are all very appropriate depending on the degree of Threat/Despair. And IMO that is another reason why this game is so beautiful, because it lacks a cut-and-dried approach to such things like "Surprise."

2. The fact that we have a dual axis of skill check resolution is itself the reason why it is okay for there to be these sort of rules. Like a Windows OS, there's any number of ways in this game to accomplish the same task: Success with Threat when using one skill might produce the same results as Failure with Advantage when using a different skill. That's just kinda the way the game works, to my reckoning. But there's no accounting for taste!

In all cases, GMs should keep on rolling. I'm glad we have this forum to share ideas, and I know I've gotten many a good one from the folks here (yourself included 2P!), so thanks all for the rants, and for reading my own rantings

Doesn't explicitly say you get a free Perception check to detect said ambush though.

So technically the following is a valid use:

GM:Ok, Roll Vig for initiative

Player: What? Umm ok, 3:1

GM: Congrats you go first!

Player:.....Well do I see anyone attacking me?

GM:No, but you have a feeling like poop is about to get real.

Player: Ok.. Perception to see how real?

GM: 2 Purple 2 Black

Player: *Roll roll* 2 Success and a Threat

GM: You see a glint of light off a scope coming from the tower under construction down the street. It's stressful so, 1 strain.

Player:Ok, that's real... I draw and fire!

GM: You already burned an action to make that Perception check.

Player: Ok, in that case I dive for cover and spend 2 strain to draw!

GM: Ok, the guy in the construction shoots, luckily you noticed him in time, so his Quick Strike talent bonuses don't apply.

Not to argue, as every group can use what works best, but I've never liked GMs who treat perception checks as something you need to actively choose to do. "I'm sorry but you didn't say you were sniffing as you walked so you missed the smell of the rotting zombie behind you! *snickers* roll initiative and the zombie gets a surprise round!" is not a very fun way to play.

Especially since there has never been a game that I know of in which you need to actively announce that you are perceiving the world around you. Edge of The Empire included...see below.

EoTE pg 114, "The Perception skill represents the character's constant, passive state of awareness. This is how a character notices concealed or subtle cues when he is not actively seeking them out."

Added note: There are times in which you would want to have a PC make an active check, but for the most part it's a passive skill.

Also, I would never have my players roll initiative without them knowing the reason. I'm pretty sure my players would kneecap me after the second or third game of Roll Imitative and Wonder Why For The Next 5 or 6 Rounds. If the PCs are unaware of a threat, just keep things narrative. Even as a GM I couldn't imagine enjoying my players having to describe how they move down a hallway turn after turn because there's an ambush waiting at the end. Not to mention the Pandora's box of meta-gaming that style of play opens up.

Reasonable points.

First off, this is an option, there's plenty of times when I would allow a "free" perception check for this or that.

Second, this game doesn't have surprise rounds. So the initial example you gave has a bit of a hole there. Just a matter of different mechanics, but people get hung up on the surprise round and that can get misleading.

Third, this is also something that would work both ways. NPC ambushing a PC and PC ambushing an NPC. There's lots more details to be had (preliminary stealth checks, bonuses and setbacks for this or that, ect) but the point is rolling initiative and being aware of the start of combat aren't mutually inclusive concepts. It's just assumed they should be because other games, like ones with surprise rounds, make it seem like it should be.

Finally, yeah, by the end of the first round everyone should know combat has begun. While there's always an exception to the rule, generally speaking if you've gone more then one combat round without combating, you're probably doing it wrong. There's fine details to be had (the ambushee's might not know WHERE the shooting is coming from, how many enemies they are up against, who those enemies are, ect) but the bullet/bolts/arrows should be flying and the situation should be pretty clear. Also worth a reminder at this point that EotE rounds can be quite longer then D&D rounds...