We may just see a Jar'Kai talent that allows you to spend strain to reduce the difficulty of two weapon checks made with a lightsaber in each hand by 1. Similar to the Guns 'Blazing talent in the Gunslinger tree.

Yes but the question will be where would that talent be? Is it in a warrior like spec that has the half brother lightsaber forms or would it be in its own spec. As of now are always part of a spec and not just on their own

Considering Guardian has no Lightsaber forms; I imagine the spec would either lie under Hunter or Warrior at this point. Probably warrior since it's about everything athletic related; and considering brawn is the attribute of personal condictioning I imagine it would be the perfect one to pair with a double saber style since you need to have good strength to repell a lightsaber one handed, even momentarily. Unless they use that for a rage fueled style; in which case it would be on hunter.

The alternative is that we might not ever see another Lightsaber form, but at some point an talent tree heavily supporting that style will emerge; a gunslinger for warrior with some personal defence abilities.

The alternative is that warrior would recieve a conflict intensive fighting style that offers improvements for conflict; e.g. Juyo but more generally based in engaged combat. That way one can pair it up with a lightsaber form without having to produce another lightsaber form for it.

Guardian has Soresu Defender, unless you meant specifically the keeping the peace book. In which case, yes I agree warrior is the most likely

Could the Jar'Kai style (since it is just a fighting style, not quite elevated to a "philosophy" like the 7 traditional forms of Legend) be represented better with a series of talents, possibly common to a few separate specializations, instead of a standalone tree?

Could the Jar'Kai style (since it is just a fighting style, not quite elevated to a "philosophy" like the 7 traditional forms of Legend) be represented better with a series of talents, possibly common to a few separate specializations, instead of a standalone tree?

As I stated earlier, I'd love to see a Battlemaster spec that really fleshes out the more obscure aspects of lightsaber forms and styles.

Yeah, totally. I was thinking that the Warleader in Keeping the Peace might be analogous to the Battlemaster, and thus have something to do with double blades.

It could be that the Warrior splatbook might also have something for us, if they do something akin to a Jedi Weapon Master.

I think it's also possible we might see some double blade-friendly talents in the Sentinel splatbook.

Will make a lightsaber universal tree that has lesser forms for now. Will have it require the character to have another lightsaber tree before taking this one. It will include a Jar'Kai technique, Trakata technique, and Sokan technique. Then will have it have one or two talents for each technique. Then some filler talents amd defensive training.

Alternative will be to have a Jar'Kai technique that can be bought for 20xp as part of Niman and an improved quick draw that can be spent in ataru. Then recommend player takes Niman 1st and then Ataru. Then Saber swarm can explain for either saber hitting if the player gets enough advantages to activate two weapon fighting and linked since rules don't say you can't used both together.

Either solution will work for player (s) and if and when a tree and talents come out that have Jar'Kai player will adjust xp accordingly and buy the proper tree instead and talents.

So been several months and have two pcs in two games using the Jar'Kai style.

1st one has taken Niman and Ataru to represent the form. I let him take out 3rd tier talent of my choice and add Twin Strike which is guns blazing, but for melee instead of range. Then in Ataru I let him take out a 2nd tier talent for improved quick draw. Then he just describes saber swarm's linked as both sabers attacking in a swarm even though mechanically it's his main weapon.

2nd Player in different game has Niman and Shi'Cho doing same as above but using Shi'Cho instead. He is using Sarlacc sweep and describing it as using both weapons to attack different enemies.

Also I am allowing players to do two weapon fighting and linked together if they spend all the costs that come with it.

If and when a real talent tree or set of talents come out for Jar'Kai I will have the players adjust. With Oggdudes incredible character generator this is easy to do for now and adjust later.

Why not reskin gunslinger spec swapping parry for some things and so on

Cause it's most likely going to be part of a tree or its own tree eventually and decided it's easiest to switch my players when it comes out even if two years later.

Plus it would be a lot of re-skinning since a lot from gunslinger doesn't fit lightsabers

Cause it's most likely going to be part of a tree or its own tree eventually and decided it's easiest to switch my players when it comes out even if two years later.

Plus it would be a lot of re-skinning since a lot from gunslinger doesn't fit lightsabers

I would look closer.

For example. Guns Blazing. could easily be reskinned as a lightsaber talent that would fit jar kai. Spit fire could also be reskinned to work with lightsabers. Both fit the idea of Jar Kai very well. Quick draw and improved quick draw also fit

Call em and dodge could be replaced with reflect and parry. Sorry about the mess and deadly accuracy dont fit and should be replace.

so while not perfect it is a good starting place to start.

So, my two cents on Jar'kai... and remember, everything that follows is my opinion and worth exactly what you are paying for it.

First off when it comes to making changes to the game, I try to make small changes over big sweeping ones using the following road plan:

1) is there an existing rule or mechanic that can be used in a way to approximate what you are trying to do without causing unintended side effects like making some talents or abilities suddenly overpowered or useless?

2) if the answer to the above is no, is there an existing talent or power tree that a few new or existing talents could be added to the sides or bottom of without causing the same issues mentioned in the first step?

3) if the answer to the above is no, only then would I consider creating a new talent tree after asking the question, does this -really- need to be added in the first place?

An example using the old WEG Force power "Instinctive Astrogation (Sense)" so you can see my methodology in something unrelated to the original post so passions don't get too high too fast:

1) Existing rule or mechanics? The closest thing is the Galaxy Mapper talent which removes setbacks to doing the math and makes the math go faster, but the IA(S) power from old D6 allowed you to bypass the need for a nav computer, so this comes close, but isn't quite right. Changes that would need to be made include making it a force talent, adding a force rating roll, removing the need for a nav computer, and reducing the time needed to "calculate" the jump to one action. On top of all that, Galaxy Mapper is more for "I want to go THERE!" and IA(S) is really more about "I want to be anywhere but HERE!" to me. IMHO, this is too much change to use Galaxy Mapper as a starting point, so on to step two!

2) Looking around at the different force powers and FND spec trees, the two most logical places to me to add this to the side or bottom would be "Starfighter Ace" or "Seek." Why Starfighter Ace? Well, it's really the only FND Pilot tree, and it really kind of jives with the pilot concept, but attaching it to this tree at the sides quickly invalidates Galaxy Mapper, so if I were to add it to this tree, I'd put it at the bottom, but while some pilots are astrogators, not all astrogators are pilots, and that would force someone who wanted this to go though a lot of things that they may not ever use to get to this particular ability. This is where Seek comes in. At it's base, Seek is about finding lost or hidden things and tracking them down. Like, a new, potentially safe or at least entertaining hyperspace route? The base power comes close, and certainly gets us a bit closer to what I am looking for than Galaxy Mapper. Looking around the Seek tree, being able to lock on and track a target is pretty far down to the bottom. Borrowing a lesson from Stargate, 6 points define a destination, 7 points make a course. You would need to track a target before you could plot a course so it makes sense to attach here. We aren't rapidly invalidating anything above it in the tree, we are building on an existing power like if you are chasing someone who just made a blind jump you were tracking and need to blind jump after them, and galaxy mapper is still useful because when you have a specific destination in mind, you use that, and when you need to "FOLLOW THAT SHIP!" or escape that ISD barreling down on you right now, use Instinctive Astrogation.

The intent of the rules governing it would be as follows: "This takes an action, roll FR as part of a hard astrogation roll, modified by circumstances like distance, following a tracked target, distractions, etc. with at least one red die to represent the fact that 'this is dangerous, kids' and it costs 1, maybe 2 FP to guarantee that you survive the trip though you may wind up someplace very dangerous, though where you end up may be best described by the words of Frank Bama on navigators. 'Sometimes the best navigators don't know where they are going until they get there, and even then they still aren't sure.' Threats, despairs, triumphs and advantages get applied as normal to an astrogation check, and success and failure gets you closer or further from your intended destination. Also, you may have to bypass the nav computer, because it's designed to be a safety system and like I said above, this is dangerous kids." The actual rules given to players would be written after testing some scenarios with the intent in mind and tweaking to get the kind of results wanted.

3) Does this need to be it's own tree, and does this need to exist? As this is such a specialized "power" this doesn't need to be it's own career spec, or it's own power tree in my mind. It makes sense attaching it to an existing power, so why put in all the work to build a full tree for a one trick pony? I leave the last question unanswered in this example, because really, it varies table to table. A player or GM may really want it, or really not want it, so at your table, on your own head be the final call.

Jar'Kai Specifically

Ok, first point on this, looking at existing mechanics and rules... Well, dual wielding comes up in a hurry, and if two lightsabers are used, you basically end up with a lightsaber check with a base difficulty of 3 purple, needing two advantage to get linked 1. We have the "paired" attachment from the smuggler book which helps out with getting the linked to hit, superior hilts help too, and if you want to build some sabers to make this thing work, there we go! Combine this with one of the saber form trees, and there you go, quick and dirty Jar'Kai! Now, at your table this may not be enough to give Jar'Kai that extra punch. Maybe you borrow heavily from gunlsinger talents as mentioned for improved quickdraw, etc. etc. but hey, your table, your rules.

From the second step, let's look at something we could maybe add to an existing tree, since based on the fluff, Jar'Kai was usually practiced alongside another form of saber combat. Now, we do have something in place for adding some more stuff to the bottom of a tree, the Signature Ability rules. This sorta feels right to me, as you would have to get pretty good with a saber before going for the dual wielding stuff, but you would have to be careful not to overpower this, or completely remove the balance that the increase to difficulty tries to maintain. A few talents I would consider:

At the top, the "Signature Ability" would be something like this - "Jar'Kai Skirmisher: Once per session, flip two destiny automatically activate linked on a lightsaber combat check when wielding two lightsabers" or maybe this, if you feel Jar'Kai is a more defensive thing - "Jar'Kai Saberwall: Once per session, flip two destiny points to grant the user X melee and ranged defense for one round" where X is probably somewhere between 3 and 4 depending on play testing results. This is in line with sig abilites like "This One Is Mine," and allows for about half the tree to be made up of things like "reduce destiny cost to 1" and "extend duration by a round." The other half of the tree could be filled in with things like Quick Draw, Improved Quick Draw, Defensive, or something unique like "Leading with your Offhand: Once per turn as an incidental, switch which lightsaber is considered your main hand weapon for the purpose of determining the qualities used in attacks." I mention this because I have a player with a lightsaber built for defense, and one built for offense, and after using all maneuvers available to them and beating on something with the "How much vicious does that saber have again?" glowstick of doom, they want that defense when the return fire comes in for some reason, but don't like the idea of just dropping the whuppin' stick as an incidental. (My personal belief that gear dropped becomes fair game for anyone to dive for and then begin running like a madbeing for "fair escape" may influence that opinion a little. Especially if the gear is shiny, expensive, useful, or, well, you get the idea.)

Heck, if you really feel like it, make the Skirmisher AND the Saberwall version of sig abilities, but to get both, they would need to have two different saber specs to attach them to. This becomes a lot of XP to invest which helps balance, and means that even a couple hundred XP in to a campaign the biggest drawback faced is the dreaded situation where drawing lightsabers causes more problems than it solves.

Now, the third option in my little system, making an entirely new Jar'Kai spec tree... At my table, I would say an emphatic NO. Making a whole tree of this and keeping it balanced would become incredibly difficult, as the temptation to add all the cool offensive and defensive talents would be pretty high, plus with all those talents to swipe from other trees or manufacture to fill up the page the likelihood of losing game balance exponentially increases.

And I know that someone would say in response to that, "but Scoundrel, Gunslinger is a thing!"

And my response to that is "yes, it is, but blaster pistols aren't 6 to 10 damage base sundering, breaching, offensive/defensive, easy to get to crit 1 weapons capable of cutting through most doors/walls/floors/ceilings."

Now, that being said, you may really feel the need to build a whole spec tree for it. At the end of the day, if everyone is having fun that is kind of the point of playing a game, and I kindly remind you that my advice is worth exactly what you've paid for it.

Anywho, I know this is a huge wall of text and if you made it this far, congratulations! Hope this helps!

I believe my two talent swaps are the best idea to make for my players until an official representation cones out in some form or fashion. Reskinning or making a new specialization I'm the end isn't needed. I feel a signature ability would be the wrong way for FFG to go. There is a gunslinger and 2 weapon talent and improved quick draw which as gm enough for now.

I have decided for both players to portray Jar'Kai they each took Niman and another saber form amd adjusted the two needed talents to portray the form. It's working out great and is no way OP