Rising Whirlwind: (4th row talent) 20pts

Spend move equivalent and roll force dice in a lightsaber or melee attack action. Spend Pips to grant blast rating of 1 per Pip generated & spent (upto Force rating)on next two weapon lightsaber or melee attack. Primary weapon must hit the initial target while offhand weapon causes blast damage to any engaged enemy including primary target instead of its normal damage. Attack has same difficulty as normal two weapon fighting and advantage cost.

Improved Rising Whirlwind: (5th row talent) 25 pts

Spend move equivalent action and make a Force roll in a lightsaber or melee attack action. Spend Pips generated & spent (upto Force rating) gives them a defense or deflection per Pip spent choosing where each pip gets allocated until the beginning of their next turn. Attack has same difficulty as normal two weapon fighting and advantage cost, but only primary weapon attacks while secondary concentrates on defense.

So you spend a manoeuvre, if you succeed you can spend light/dark pips up to force rating? So basically Blast 1 for as long as you stay in this tree? Why not also require Strain and 2 force pips, and let the second weapon deal full or half damage as Blast?

Twin Strike: (Row 3 talent) 15 pts

Reduces difficulty of two weapon fighting with lightsbers, melee, or brawl.

I'd add a Strain cost here, 2 strain would be sufficient and in line, I believe, with the Gunslinger's talent for ranged (light) attacks.

Thanks. Agree on the Twin Strike.

As for Rising Whirlwind you are saying increase the cost by adding strain, but increase the blast damage of the second weapon?

Well. I was just thinking that if you forgo your second hit to gain the Blast quality to your lightsaber, 1 damage (even with successes) might be a bit low. So I thought that by increasing the cost (you have to take 1-2 strain as a manoeuvre and pay 2 force pips) you could make that Blast quality equal to off-hand weapon, or half damage...

Unless of course what you're proposing adds Blast = FR to both sabers that can be activated separately?

Another question about Blast for melee weapons is also how you treat allies engaged with those you're attacking? Strictly speaking you'll hit those too, unless you have selective detonation or whatever that demo talent it called

Also, when it comes to minion groups I'm not sure this particularly more useful, of course if surrounded by Rivals (and perhaps a Nemesis) it could be useful, but how often does that happen?

Or did you like Rising Whirlwind giving linked 1 to primary and secondary weapons for move equivalent and 2 strain and still having to activate two weapon fighting successfully before activating linked on each weapon

First, I assume that by "move equivalent" you mean manoeuvre?

Giving linked 1 to each weapon is strictly speaking better, at least against minions, but arguably also against Rivals and Nemeses.

I like the Blast idea, but I've been thinking about an auto-fire solution too.

A whirlwind attack could also just be a "Blast attack". So, by wielding two melee/lightsaber/brawl weapons you spend a manoeuvre before you attack picking the most difficult enemy to hit (highest defence and most ranks in adversary), roll attack with the normal increased difficulty as per normal two-weapon fighting rules, but add roll force die/dice to the pool. You forgo your opportunity to hit a second time, but if you succeed on the attack and produce at least 1 force pip, all enemies engaged with you receive damage as per either of your weapons (basically choose) plus 1 damage per 2 successes/every additional force pips.

I'd say choose whatever mechanic you like most and test it. If you see it's way too powerful or weak, change it or adjust the figures (number of successes/advantages/Force pips needed, etc). Use other splats for comparison - if you do way more damage than Ataru, for example, then it should be toned down; if you do less damage than Soresu, then it should be toned up.

Of course, be aware that some crystals might be better suited for this style than others.

Edit: Forgot to say that combination with other trees should also be taken into account.

Btw, if you finally add Defensive Circle... how would you adress making a non-combat check (non-attack) with 2 sabers? Would you increase the difficulty or not? Would you apply the passive bonuses on the second saber? Just pure curiosity...

I wouldn't increase the check for Defensive Circle, I'd also let the player choose one weapon which qualities can be applied, but only to himself. I don't think that benefit warrants another difficulty die. It's not a Daunting check just because you have two UCTs.

Well. I was just thinking that if you forgo your second hit to gain the Blast quality to your lightsaber, 1 damage (even with successes) might be a bit low. So I thought that by increasing the cost (you have to take 1-2 strain as a manoeuvre and pay 2 force pips) you could make that Blast quality equal to off-hand weapon, or half damage...

Unless of course what you're proposing adds Blast = FR to both sabers that can be activated separately?

Another question about Blast for melee weapons is also how you treat allies engaged with those you're attacking? Strictly speaking you'll hit those too, unless you have selective detonation or whatever that demo talent it called

Also, when it comes to minion groups I'm not sure this particularly more useful, of course if surrounded by Rivals (and perhaps a Nemesis) it could be useful, but how often does that happen?

Rising Whirlwind is basically like a Dragon Punch with two light sabers spinning around you. Anyone you are engaged with is gonna get smacked by the light sabers including allies. Thats why blast is the best way to simulate it.

Well. I was just thinking that if you forgo your second hit to gain the Blast quality to your lightsaber, 1 damage (even with successes) might be a bit low. So I thought that by increasing the cost (you have to take 1-2 strain as a manoeuvre and pay 2 force pips) you could make that Blast quality equal to off-hand weapon, or half damage...

Unless of course what you're proposing adds Blast = FR to both sabers that can be activated separately?

Another question about Blast for melee weapons is also how you treat allies engaged with those you're attacking? Strictly speaking you'll hit those too, unless you have selective detonation or whatever that demo talent it called

Also, when it comes to minion groups I'm not sure this particularly more useful, of course if surrounded by Rivals (and perhaps a Nemesis) it could be useful, but how often does that happen?

Rising Whirlwind is basically like a Dragon Punch with two light sabers spinning around you. Anyone you are engaged with is gonna get smacked by the light sabers including allies. Thats why blast is the best way to simulate it.

I agree only if, as a prerequisite, you need to shout "Shoryuken!"

Something just came to mind... what characteristic should replace Brawn for Jar'Kai, if any...?

EDIT: Post 2000! Wohooo!

I would say it doesn't get a replacement characteristic since from what I read it was always paired with Niman, Ataru, or on rare times Makashi.

Indeed, jar Kai if anything is a form that doesn't have a particular trait associated to it, it's the evolution of a generalist style with one blade instead of two.

That being said, nimen already strongly associates to it because of defensive training. In the past, I have been inclined to pick up a second saber, stock up on the two defensive talents and call that jar'kai.

I am tempted to take out a Parry and two Reflects from Niman and substitute Quick Draw, Improved Quick Draw, and the homebrew talent Twin Strike which is just Gunsblazing but for two Lightsabers or two melee weapons (2 strain and no increased difficulties). Then call it Jar'Kai (Niman Alternate). Thinking this might be easier to do instead of making a brand new talent tree. Then once the official comes out give the player the choice to modify to the official tree instead.

This way I don't risk over powering the tree. Then will recommend pairing the Jar'Kai (Niman Alternate) form with either Ataru, Shien, or Makashi which based on what I read were the most common in that order taken.

Other option is too take out Draw Closer and substitute a Rising Whirlwind Talent. Not sure

I am tempted to take out a Parry and two Reflects from Niman and substitute Quick Draw, Improved Quick Draw, and the homebrew talent Twin Strike which is just Gunsblazing but for two Lightsabers or two melee weapons (2 strain and no increased difficulties). Then call it Jar'Kai (Niman Alternate). Thinking this might be easier to do instead of making a brand new talent tree. Then once the official comes out give the player the choice to modify to the official tree instead.

This way I don't risk over powering the tree. Then will recommend pairing the Jar'Kai (Niman Alternate) form with either Ataru, Shien, or Makashi which based on what I read were the most common in that order taken.

I would cut out everything relating to the force in that tree (force rating, draw closer, force assault) for some of the unique talents. Keep parry, cut reflect entirely (because at least to start with, concentrating on two blades doesn't allow you to deflect boasters well. Not unless you built up your foundations elsewhere.)

Much of what I read is that it is derived from a twin Sword fighting style and combination of a Niman Alternate. Keeping some of Niman would be easier since that is the most common form used with Jar'Kai. I am trying to just avoid creating a new form now, but feel to call anything Jar'Kai it needs a talent like the Gunblazing from Gunslinger. So They learn Niman at the expense of Reflects they gain both Quick Draws and the Twin Strike Talent and call it a day. Then when the official form comes out I will let the players restructure to the new form instead.

Anyone have an idea for cool specialization name since theme is every form has a name associated with the form

Jar'Kai Practitioner

Jar'Kai Dervish

Jar'Kai Bladesmaster

Duel Weilding Jar'Kai

Anyone?

I support both #2 and #3.

Thanks for your oppinion

My biggest problem with making specific Jar'Kai Specializations is this: it isn't its own form. Jar'Kai is essentially just the addition of a second weapon, which can be done in any of the forms (granted it works better with some than others i.e. Better with Ataru or Niman than say Makashi).

Jar'Kai is actually it's own form. It is an official form that is often paired up with another form. However, if you look at any other form they are often paired with other forms as well and even meant to be. Lightsaber forms are much like mixed martial arts and the Jedi and Sith trained their students/apprentices in at least two or more forms. Some learned two or more forms that complimented each other and others learned forms that made up for what their other form was missing....much like any half decent or average UFC fighter does now. The difference with Jar'Kai was that very few mastered this form so the bottom of the tree would be very rare for individuals to reach only because they would not focus on it The Jar'Kai form was a specialist much like Makashi and in its specialty lies it's weakness, but it does deserve a form of its own...just specialized. Why does Gunslinger have a specialization since same could be said for a guy who wants two blasters has the rules to pick up a second weapon, but they are specialised in two weapon fighting.

When a supplement comes out with the official talent tree for the form there won't be any disputing the form or others like Juyo, Trakata, and others like them. Vappad is the only form that could be disputed since Mace only taught it to one other and we haven't heard of it being taught to others

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, there are only seven Lightsaber forms, those being Shii-Cho, Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, Shien/Djem So, Niman, Juyo/Vaapad. Things like Jar'Kai, Sokan, Trakata etc etc are specialized tactics/moves used within the confines of the seven forms.

I think, my solution to people wanting Jar'Kai in the game is in the Warrior Sourcebook (if we see one) have a BattleMaster/WeaponMaster spec which has talents related to Jar'Kai, Sokan so on and so forth, as I don't see Jar'Kai as having enough depth to warrant a entire specialization.

To answer your question as to why Smuggler got the Gunslinger specialization. It is the Smuggler's "combat" spec. In the F&D Beta book, every class has a Lightsaber spec, so no matter which career you take in it, you will have an option to be combat focused.

Combat focused but no talents that lower two weapon fighting or have any two weapon focus. I don't want my players having to take Gunslinger to lower two weapon. Lightsaber combat. So at a minimum either a Niman or Ataru alternate spec that has such talents instead of force focus for Niman or instead of acrobatic move focus for Ataru. Or your idea would work if the specialization was like Shien with two distinct sides of the tree, one being more Jar'Kai and the other being Trakata and Sokan or one side being Jar'Kai with one of those depending on which two make more sense.