Anyone have any input before I make a specialization and talent tree. After reading online Duel Blade will be a name of a key talent and Whirling Blade

Jar Kai

1.I would have quick draw and improved quick draw

2.I would have defensive training and dodge

3.A talent that decreases difficulty when fighting or a movement attack similiar to Haw bat swoop that produces advantages with Force dice added to roll, increasing chances of pulling two weapon attack off.

I would have a few placed parry and reflect to account for chance to use second weapon defensively which Saga portraid very well.

4.I would even consider defensive circle since they would use two sabers in a defensive stance of swirling blades.

5.Quick strike might also compliment it

6.Giving them a talent on the bottom row that gives them the linked ability equal to their force rating plus one with two one handed sabers to explain a flurry of attacks, but it costs 2 strain for each saber used.

Sounds dangerously overpowered, on pretty much every front. You can't really cherry-pick multiple of the better talents of trees, particularly the specialization unique talents, without it devaluing other trees and making the new tree anything but a must-pick. Unless you decided to knock up the costs of talents (instead of 5xp for row 1, 10xp for row 2, and so on; it's 15xp for row 1, 20 xp for row 2, and so on), you may have to scale back a bit on what you want to include.

Than what would a good alternative be. I want to create something like gunslinger but for Jar'Kai and do not want to wait the year or two that it is going to take to see the specialization in another book

Your number 6 could easily be linked = Force Rating, and that would still be really powerful. Perhaps too powerful.

I'm not sure about quick draw and improved quick draw is necessary, but why not.

A reflect and parry talent or two wouldn't be too over powered perhaps. A defensive talent the requires wielding two weapons (or a double weapon?) wouldn't be bad, but perhaps a bit too specialised...

Perhaps just give it defensive circle, two parry talents and one reflect talent. Or Defensive training and one parry and one reflect talent.

A talent with strain cost to reduce two-weapon fighting difficulty exists for ranged (light), so I can see it for melee or lightsaber too. That would definitely be a good talent here.

I see now reason to give it hawk-bat swoop. That talent already belongs somewhere else.

Perhaps a force talent for wielding two lightsabers (or a double lightsaber) that if successful (i.e. both net 1 success and at least 1 or 2 force points produced) allows the expenditure of advantages (2 per) to add additional hits with either lightsaber up to Force Rating, above and beyond the normal second hit for 2 advantages - requires the expenditure of a destiny point too perhaps... excessive force points can be added as advantages. Kind of like a linked ability tied to both lightsabers...

Anyone have any input before I make a specialization and talent tree. After reading online Duel Blade will be a name of a key talent and Whirling Blade

Jar Kai

1.I would have quick draw and improved quick draw

2.I would have defensive training and dodge

3.A talent that decreases difficulty when fighting or a movement attack similiar to Haw bat swoop that produces advantages with Force dice added to roll, increasing chances of pulling two weapon attack off.

I would have a few placed parry and reflect to account for chance to use second weapon defensively which Saga portraid very well.

4.I would even consider defensive circle since they would use two sabers in a defensive stance of swirling blades.

5.Quick strike might also compliment it

6.Giving them a talent on the bottom row that gives them the linked ability equal to their force rating plus one with two one handed sabers to explain a flurry of attacks, but it costs 2 strain for each saber used.

Well, your list has a problem: it tries to include everything (speed, offense, defense) using the best talents as a base. Usually, talents like Defensive Circle (which I don't like, btw) or Saber Swarm are speciality talents from a particular splat, so it should be a better idea to use more general talents as a base. After that, one or two exclusive talents which really reflect the form's strenghts would be a nice addition. I'll give you my thoughts, based on what I read on www.wookiepedia.com :

1- Speed/Initiative: I don't think we need to add much on that matter - it's an offensive form but doesn't need initiative bonuses.

2- Defense: While being offebnsive, dual wielding carries some defensive bonuses. Parrying and reflecting blasters is also a staple of most saber forms. However, it seems a very melee oriented style. I would add some ranks of Defensive Training and/or Defensive Stance, Some Parry and Reflect and maybe Improved Parry.

3- Offense: Here's where we shine. According to Wookiepedia, Jar'Kai has two signature moves: Rising Whirlwind and Twin Strike.

As a dual wielding style, you'll be using the dual wielding rule a lot; Rising Whirlwind or any other similar talent could let you do things like ignoring the difficulty increase when dual wielding or let you achieve more than only one additional hit (one hit every 2 advantages). I mean, Link is good, but there's already a different rule to adress dual blades, let's use it.

As for Twin Strike, a hit with both blades at the same time could maybe let you add a Characteristic (Brawn, e.g.) to damage without the need for spending a Destiny Point. This should have a price, of course, just like Rising Whirlwind should as well - either some strain or a Maneuver, or in an extreme case, a difficulty upgrade.

Also in the offensive side you could probably add a way to get to close combat, since it makes sense a practitioner of this style would want to be engaged as much as he can. Everybody can use Force Jump, Bind or Move to get engaged, but there are some splats which receive some help. I'm against borrowing Draw Closer, Hawk-Bat Swoop or Djem So, they seem too much splat exclusive. Maybe the possibility of exchanging advantages for an extra Maneuver... Idk, I'd have to think about that.

Then add some common things like Grit, etc. and the typical "blue die to skill X" talent and this is it - a solid tree imho without being extremely good in all sides.

EDIT: Idea for a blade whirlwind talent

Maybe the possibility of making multiple attacks as long as you hit, instead of making one attack and adding hits with advantages. Probably limited by a Characteristic instead of FR to compensate for the multiple combat checks needed. Not sure about that, just had a spark in my mind which needs a lot of polishing.

Quick Draw and Improved Quick Draw I can see, since the latter talent in Gunslinger pretty much confirms that the official ruling on Quick Draw is one individual item, even if some GMs (like myself) had been allowing two-weapon fast draws so long as being a two-gun kid was part and parcel to the original character concept.

I'd say only go with two ranks of Parry and two ranks of Reflect at absolute maximum, and a single rank of Defensive Training. Part of Jar'kai is that it uses the second lightsaber as both a defensive and offensive option. But that's all I'd give the spec in terms of defensive talents. Although, a rank of Defensive Stance would help vs. incoming melee attacks, so that could probably be included.

I'd suggest including one rank each of Toughened and Grit, as that's something most of the LS Form specs offer, with the big exception of Ataru Striker as part of it's role as a "glass cannon" and Makashi Duelist which just has Grit instead.

A couple ranks of Quick Strike are certainly viable to account for the Form's ties to Ataru.

Perhaps include a Jar'Kai Technique talent that provides a free Advantage when attacking with two lightsabers or a double-bladed lightsaber, thus making it easier to trigger that second hit, especially if using two lightsabers with the Paired attachment from Fly Casual. As well as a version of the Gunslinger talent that reduced the difficulty for two-weapon fighting by one for a point of strain.

As for Force-based talents, I would not include Hawk-Bat Swoop or any direct derivative of that talent. Instead, have a talent that when the character makes a Lightsaber combat check, add their Force Dice, and each FP allows for an additional hit against any engaged target. Normally two-weapon fighting (as well as Linked weapons) can only hit the same target, so a 4th or even 5th Row talent that lets the attacker spend FP to hit other engaged targets would be the spec's signature talent.

Probably include Saber Throw, and then an Improved Saber Throw that allows you to use the Saber Throw talent with two lightsabers at no increase in FP cost, but otherwise operates under the appropriate rules for two-weapon fighting.

Instead of Defensive Circle, instead how about Circle of Defense? It'd let your Jar'kai PC use their lightsabers to protect nearby allies.

Naturally it'd have a rank of Dedication, but no Force Rating talent. Instead, give it Improved Parry since that seems to be a stock element of most of the LS Form specs (except Niman, which has Force Rating instead). Or if you really do want it to have a Force Rating talent to help bolster up Saber Throw, then no Improved Parry; you get one or the other, NOT both.

Rising Whirlwind

suffer strain no greater then ranks in Rising Whirlwind to add the blast quality equal to your ranks of whirlwind to your lightsaber.

Lightsaber Guard

Once per encounter you may spend a destiny point to make a lightsaber guard action and reduce the damage a target within engaged range takes from a single melee attack by no more then your ranks in parry.

Improved Lightsaber Guard

Once per encounter you may spend a destiny point to make a lightsaber guard action reduce the damage a target within engaged range takes from a single ranged attack by no more then your ranks in reflect.

Superior Lighsaber Guard

You may take a lightsaber guard action as an incidental.

Edit: Decided I don't care enough to comment

Rising Whirlwind

suffer strain no greater then ranks in Rising Whirlwind to add the blast quality equal to your ranks of whirlwind to your lightsaber.

Lightsaber Guard

Once per encounter you may spend a destiny point to make a lightsaber guard action and reduce the damage a target within engaged range takes from a single melee attack by no more then your ranks in parry.

Improved Lightsaber Guard

Once per encounter you may spend a destiny point to make a lightsaber guard action reduce the damage a target within engaged range takes from a single ranged attack by no more then your ranks in reflect.

Superior Lighsaber Guard

You may take a lightsaber guard action as an incidental.

Why all this "Guard" mojo? Isn't Jar'Kai an offensive style, as opposed to Soresu/Makashi + Protector?

It's all certain point of view mumbo jumbo. Some say it's all about going all swirly twirly, some it's a wall of deflection.

And unless rising whirlwind has a bunch of ranks on the tree, doing Ranks=Blast is going to be pretty weak. 1-2 points of damage will do little to nothing on most characters.

I am into the weeds on some of the EU stuff. What is Jar'Kai that makes it so maddening that there is not a specialization dedicated to it? Additionally if it is so special why can it not wait for a splat book? Is it holding up a story? Is the character requiring something from it? Is there so much combat that it is required?

Blast does rating in damage + successes to everything engaged with the target. It also can still hit even if the attack misses.

The real damage comes from multiple strikes in a single attack....

I guess this brings up the question, which I'm sure is answered somewhere, about whether or not Breach applies to Blast as well. If it does, the rising whirlwind will always be somewhat usable (barring soak 10+ or Cortosis), even if not super great.

I guess this brings up the question, which I'm sure is answered somewhere, about whether or not Breach applies to Blast as well. If it does, the rising whirlwind will always be somewhat usable (barring soak 10+ or Cortosis), even if not super great.

Over on the EotE forums in the Developer Answered Questions thread, Sam Stewart did confirm that passive qualities like Breach and Pierce would apply to Blast.

Yes, I thought so but I couldn't be asked with checking... I'm pretending to be a busy working bee... got to have cash for the salt in the porridge. (yes that's an actual saying, at least over here).

LIke a lot of these ideas. Gonna start coming up wi th rough talent tree

Rising Whirlwind: (4th row talent) 20pts

Spend move equivalent and roll force dice in a lightsaber or melee attack action. Spend Pips to grant blast rating of 1 per Pip generated & spent (upto Force rating)on next two weapon lightsaber or melee attack. Primary weapon must hit the initial target while offhand weapon causes blast damage to any engaged enemy including primary target instead of its normal damage. Attack has same difficulty as normal two weapon fighting and advantage cost.

Improved Rising Whirlwind: (5th row talent) 25 pts

Spend move equivalent action and make a Force roll in a lightsaber or melee attack action. Spend Pips generated & spent (upto Force rating) gives them a defense or deflection per Pip spent choosing where each pip gets allocated until the beginning of their next turn. Attack has same difficulty as normal two weapon fighting and advantage cost, but only primary weapon attacks while secondary concentrates on defense.

Twin Strike: (Row 3 talent) 15 pts

Reduces difficulty of two weapon fighting with lightsbers, melee, or brawl.

Alternate Rising Whirlwind: (Row 4) 20 pts

Make attack action and make two weapon lightsaber, melee, or brawl attack with normal two weapon fighting difficulties. Spend advantages to activate off hand attack as normal. May spend 2 strain to spend extra advantages rolled to gain additional attacks from primary or offhand weapon again costing 2 strain per additional attack and advantages specialization to activate upto a maximum additional attacks equal to Force rating. Additionally extra attacks gained from strain can hit any engaged target and are not limited to initial target.

Or another

Alternate Rising Whirlwind (Ranked Version) 2nd row 10pts, 3rd row 15pts, 4th row 20pts, 5th row 25pts

Take lightsaber, melee, or brawl two weapon fighting action with normal difficulties. If primary weapon hits target, offhand weapon hits as normal with advantages spent. If more advantages are rolled spend 2 strain and the advantage cost to hit again with primary or offhand d weapon upto the ranks take. In Rising Whirlwind. Additional attacks gained from strain cost may hit any engaged target and are not limited to primary one.

I like all versions of the talent, but thought 1st two give an offensive and defensive to the form. If going with first two them would not have any other defensive talents besides one or two reflects. If going with either of my alternates would have some kind of Defensive talent or lightsaber defense.

Also having quick draw and improved quick draw and then a few basic talents like grit, toughness, parry, reflect, dedication (wiki makes it clear Jar'Kai tend to not be as strong I force so no force rating), and maybe quick strike or coordination. Not sure about saber throw since Jar'Kai states it was usually a form that paired with Ataru, Niman, or Makashi. The latter being the most rare. Think wold be better to have a Jar'Kai take another lightsaber tree for the talents that fit really nicely with it like Draw closer, Saber Swarm, Saber Throw. Also always went with Saber throw being allowed with two weapon fighting, but difficulty of two weapon fighting applies, and double the cost for both weapons to be thrown amd double cost for both to be returned which means more often than not Force rating 3 or higher and darkside characters more often. Or Force rating 4 since it would be difficult to produce 6 lightside pips with 2 or 3 dice.

I am into the weeds on some of the EU stuff. What is Jar'Kai that makes it so maddening that there is not a specialization dedicated to it? Additionally if it is so special why can it not wait for a splat book? Is it holding up a story? Is the character requiring something from it? Is there so much combat that it is required?

We don't play weekly like we used to. My group has a concept and both would rather not wait for a book that depending on order of books could be up to two years. Also enjoy creating and if and when raw comes out that character will either be retired or dead since we are playing campaign where characters won't make it to New Hope timeline which is when splat book is scheduled to come out (jk). If character is around then we would just adjust to new talent tree.

I am into the weeds on some of the EU stuff. What is Jar'Kai that makes it so maddening that there is not a specialization dedicated to it? Additionally if it is so special why can it not wait for a splat book? Is it holding up a story? Is the character requiring something from it? Is there so much combat that it is required?

Dependin on who you ask, Jar'Kai is a form of lightsaber combat that uses two sabers, also depending on who you ask, either to use the offensive power, or the defensive power, only two of these weapons can muster.

The big problems with it are as follows, again depending on who you ask:

• The Jedi hate it. A lightsaber is a rare, potent device, and the Jedi try not to look at it as a weapon, but more as a tool of last resort, when all other modes of discussion have been exhausted. You don't use it till you have to, and the idea of training to use two, when even one is "just in case", often makes you appear to the rest of the stuffy Order as if you are intending to need to use them. Not including the KOTOR era, most Jedi would never use two sabers; that's Sith territory, much like the dual-blade saber Exar Kun "invented". Sith see it as a weapon, and use it as one, while Jedi are not supposed to.
• From a game stand point, as they stand, the two sabers are expensive to use, especially before, when they lacked the skill to balance it out, but even now, you might argue that the extra hit, if you can get it, might not warrant the effort of trying, and possibly failing, all the other times you tried.
• In this system, maybe less so in F&D, getting a lightsaber is slightly harder than getting a capital ship, so having two, to use Jar'Kai, at all, seems ridiculous to some, and your GM basically had to hand you at least one of them, just because.

Chunks of this could be as much my opinion, of course, and you might dispute any of the points, but "current era" Jedi almost never used Jar'Kai. Dooku was filmed with it, and then Lucas changed his mind, and made Dooku a Makashi god, the only man probably able to trounce Mace Windu, legitimately, and that is why Dooku now is said to be disgusted by animals who use two sabers, finding them barbaric, and pathetic. Anakin also does it for a few seconds, poorly, and Dooku hates him, already. KOTOR era Jedi are different, and have to fight real enemies, wielding the same weapons, so they were more likely to wield two, or double sabers, and that went away with the Sith, following the Battle of Ruusan. Darth Maul does it, with knowledge Darth Sidious collected from ancient Sith spirits, specifically to be ready to fight multiple, lightsaber-wielding opponents. If that isn't likely to be your enemy, you're only using Jar'Kai to show off, and that's not very Jedi of you, Emokin.

Can I please only get comments on the talent tree. I was not asking for justification of the lightsaber form. I don't need reasoning of why or why not it should exist or that's it's not very jedi like. I am working on the tree and would appreciate any feedback on the tree.

Thanks again for those who had ideas on my questions.

Can I please only get comments on the talent tree. I was not asking for justification of the lightsaber form. I don't need reasoning of why or why not it should exist or that's it's not very jedi like. I am working on the tree and would appreciate any feedback on the tree.

Thanks again for those who had ideas on my questions.

The lack of understanding the need for me made it hard for me to comment on the tree. So it is counter productive for you to limit this line of questioning.

Also it being Jedi or non Jedi, if it is crazy or not crazy can help tune your tree.

With that said I can usefully comment.

The problem I have seen when people make custom trees is they want an "end game" style specialization. This is great for a one shot, but terrible for every day beginning of a campaign. Balancing is the hardest part in any game and based on the slightly confusing nature of the form, it is possible you are utilizing multiple ideas from different sources (hence going with high offense and high defense).

If you tune if from a GM perspective of "how would this fair in early game combat? How would this fair in non combat situations? Is this too much power in one place?" You will better be able to tune it to something that isn't crazy OP.

Thanks morningfire. Just didn't want thread becoming debate about form being jedi or not