Inspired by Biophysical's Regionals report I also wanted to try out a double Defender list:

Tie Defender: · Rexler Brath (37)

PTL (3)

HLC (7)

Engine (4)

Tie Defender: · Colonel Vessery (35)

PTL (3)

HLC (7)

Engine (4)

Total 100 points

So far I only played 4 games in solitaire against Fat Han, BBBBZ, super Dash and Corran&Chewie. Went 4:0 in these games, but this should be taken with some salt, since solitaire isn't really representive.

Some thoughts about the list ...

- I'm really not sure about PTL here. It's really awesome to use both roll and push and get out or into arcs this way. However by not taking Predator both deal less damage, which is a big bummer. At least having it on Brath would be good, since otherwise you need to use that targetlock more often.

- Engine felt really great so far, but I'm not sure if I need them so compensate for bad plays or lacking knowledge on my side. It's **** cool though to KTurn, then Barrelroll, then push (assuming PTL is played). Thoughts?

- pilotskill 6 and 8 is kinda odd ... not sure if VI is a good idea. In case I drop PTL I could add Predator on Brath and VI on Vessery, so that both have PS8 at least (which is still not enough for Soontirs, but still)

I'm curious though, what do you think about this list? Any ideas to improve it, or thoughts about easy and tough matchups are - as always - highly appreciated

Wish you all a nice weekend, cheers!

So, it's like Dual Aggressors, but... not

I used to have a lot of fun with dual defenders. Then dual aggressors came out, and it was a whole 'omg this is how the defender is supposed to fly'. I still have high hopes that Twin Ion Engine (mk2?) will give defenders something like that..... but it seems more likely just to turn banks green or something.

Anyways back on topic, the defender suffers immensely from its green maneuvers, they're all straight. Clearing stress becomes a problem because you can only go straight to clear it, and if you want to get a boost on it too, you drop your chance at a focus/evade. Rexler needs ptl to double tap TL + focus, but has trouble with the stress. Vessery on the other hand can live without it and would actually benefit a whole lot more if he was ps8, so he can shoot before Rexler.

So, it's like Dual Aggressors, but... not

Sort of. The small base and white K-turn really make it fly a lot differently.

I ran a similar squadron in a casual match. I chose Veteran Instincts as it allowed both pilots to take advantage of Rexler's target lock, and gave him more opportunity to use his focus ability. The shield upgrades could easily be swapped out for something else. I have not played it against any of the Meta lists.

Colonel Vessery (35)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Heavy Laser Cannon (7)

Shield Upgrade (4)

Rexler Brath (37)

Push the Limit (3)

Heavy Laser Cannon (7)

Shield Upgrade (4)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

How about this for a squad name: Duel Defenders

Call it Cabrakan.
Mayan Monster who, in SMITE, duel-wields tower-shields as his weapons.
Causes earthquakes, breaks volcanoes. Fun.

Now this is a two ship list I'd like to fly. How do you deal with RAC predator shenanigans? Whenever I play defenders what happens is that they'll blank and take 3-4 damage in a single shot. I know it's a dice game and that happens with every ship but on a ship that's 30 points minimum that isn't acceptable.

I think engine upgrade is a strong play here. If you get both at PS 8 they'll activate after Super Dash, and you can use engines to get it in arc and possible abuse the doughnut hole. You can also use an angled boost to setup a good straight path for a green maneuver next turn should you PtL.

I feel that Defenders were balanced cautiously but they're in line with the other normal ships in the game like Y Wings and X Wings and B Wings and TIE Fighters. But as a 'normal' ship that's a few points overpriced that's built to be able to kind of counter 'normal' ships, it simply cannot deal with a turret that has a ******* HLC or 4 dice FCS Gunner shenanigans. If that stuff was not in the game you'd be able to play them and they'd have their niche even if a bit overcosted. If the game was just Wave 3 and also Defenders they'd have more of a role.

I don't like PTL on defenders, they have an extremely limited dial in terms of removing stress and it makes your follow up moves very predictable. (straight only)

edit: engine is a neat concept! I'll have to try that instead of stealths

Thanks for all the replies!

I used to have a lot of fun with dual defenders. Then dual aggressors came out, and it was a whole 'omg this is how the defender is supposed to fly'. I still have high hopes that Twin Ion Engine (mk2?) will give defenders something like that..... but it seems more likely just to turn banks green or something.

Anyways back on topic, the defender suffers immensely from its green maneuvers, they're all straight. Clearing stress becomes a problem because you can only go straight to clear it, and if you want to get a boost on it too, you drop your chance at a focus/evade. Rexler needs ptl to double tap TL + focus, but has trouble with the stress. Vessery on the other hand can live without it and would actually benefit a whole lot more if he was ps8, so he can shoot before Rexler.

In my games so far I didn't use PTL whenever possibly, but more whenever I really needed that second action.

Also, sometimes I didn't care about not having an action that turn, when I already was in a good position. Since Vessery gets his TL anyway each turn they still deal some decent damage.

So as mentioned, PTL is cool to have, but I'll maybe change it into something else. We'll see

So, it's like Dual Aggressors, but... not

Sort of. The small base and white K-turn really make it fly a lot differently.

I also like the fact, that everybody knows how to play against a Brobot list, however when they face two Defender most people go "Dafuq is this sh*t?"-mode

Also, I love that green straight 5 move. Your opponent will think in which direction you'll turn or if you maybe even K-Turn, while I just fly 5 away and follow with a push. Just plain awesome move to get back into that sweet range 3.

Now this is a two ship list I'd like to fly. How do you deal with RAC predator shenanigans? Whenever I play defenders what happens is that they'll blank and take 3-4 damage in a single shot. I know it's a dice game and that happens with every ship but on a ship that's 30 points minimum that isn't acceptable.

I think engine upgrade is a strong play here. If you get both at PS 8 they'll activate after Super Dash, and you can use engines to get it in arc and possible abuse the doughnut hole. You can also use an angled boost to setup a good straight path for a green maneuver next turn should you PtL.

I feel that Defenders were balanced cautiously but they're in line with the other normal ships in the game like Y Wings and X Wings and B Wings and TIE Fighters. But as a 'normal' ship that's a few points overpriced that's built to be able to kind of counter 'normal' ships, it simply cannot deal with a turret that has a ******* HLC or 4 dice FCS Gunner shenanigans. If that stuff was not in the game you'd be able to play them and they'd have their niche even if a bit overcosted. If the game was just Wave 3 and also Defenders they'd have more of a role.

Yeah, maybe. I haven't felt really outclassed yet though, but I'll see how it goes.

I haven't face RAC yet, but Chewie, Dash and Han, and pretty much all of them fold over when you put two HLC in their face Their output combined with TL, Predator and/or Focus is really insane. I guess RAC is pretty similar, but I haven't faced Soontir yet with this list, who is pretty much his BBF right now.

Good point about that PS 8 on both and Engine Upgrade. Not only does it help against Dash, but since the list only has 98 points then your opponent will fly before you most of the time. Speaking of them, that's great against Dash, Corran with PTL, Brobots and RAC. However there are enough PS9 or more ships around, so you can't really rely on it all the time.

I don't like PTL on defenders, they have an extremely limited dial in terms of removing stress and it makes your follow up moves very predictable. (straight only)

edit: engine is a neat concept! I'll have to try that instead of stealths

As stated I haven't found stress to much of an issue so far. Sure, sometimes it denies my action, but I only do so when I'm sure I'm in a great position next turn where I don't need to rely on an action. Especially with Engine it's rather easy to set up for a straight move the following turn

It would work better on a defender with experimental interface but I have come to really like expert handling instead of engines on small ships. I guess boost is better at setting up shots but I prefer lateral movement for arc dodging. Also I think the net gains from putting engines on a large base ship is more noticeable as you get the whole base added to a boost. Might just be me but boost on those small bases is kinda meh. You could always go ptl and engines and have both but I personally don't like turning a non-juking fighter into one.

I love your idea though and have been trying to figure out a good strategy for dual defenders. It is something different and I love spanking something known with something different, even if not consistantly, to show numbers on paper and reality are not always the same thing.

Now this is a two ship list I'd like to fly. How do you deal with RAC predator shenanigans? Whenever I play defenders what happens is that they'll blank and take 3-4 damage in a single shot. I know it's a dice game and that happens with every ship but on a ship that's 30 points minimum that isn't acceptable.

I think engine upgrade is a strong play here. If you get both at PS 8 they'll activate after Super Dash, and you can use engines to get it in arc and possible abuse the doughnut hole. You can also use an angled boost to setup a good straight path for a green maneuver next turn should you PtL.

I feel that Defenders were balanced cautiously but they're in line with the other normal ships in the game like Y Wings and X Wings and B Wings and TIE Fighters. But as a 'normal' ship that's a few points overpriced that's built to be able to kind of counter 'normal' ships, it simply cannot deal with a turret that has a ******* HLC or 4 dice FCS Gunner shenanigans. If that stuff was not in the game you'd be able to play them and they'd have their niche even if a bit overcosted. If the game was just Wave 3 and also Defenders they'd have more of a role.

I don't think you're right about this. Defenders with a pair of heavily modified HLC shots can tear into a fatty as well as anything, from any range. The fatties can't really kite them effectively, either.

just added this to my to test list

As I remember, lone wolf was the choice of that guy from regionals at least on one of the defenders. It would improve survivability, as well as the offensive effectiveness. IMO Rexler should stick with PTL to ensure triggering of Vessery's or his own ability.

As I remember, lone wolf was the choice of that guy from regionals at least on one of the defenders. It would improve survivability, as well as the offensive effectiveness. IMO Rexler should stick with PTL to ensure triggering of Vessery's or his own ability.

To ensure triggering Vessery's ability, Vessery needs VI to shoot first. That leaves little space for Lone Wolf.

I'm going to try something similiar:

I think Vessery without PTL would have little use of EU, so I can change it for sth. cheaper and have points for PRockets.

If Vessery is getting a free TL maybe he could skimp on spending his action to modify his dice and could go for a boost.

As I remember, lone wolf was the choice of that guy from regionals at least on one of the defenders. It would improve survivability, as well as the offensive effectiveness. IMO Rexler should stick with PTL to ensure triggering of Vessery's or his own ability.

To ensure triggering Vessery's ability, Vessery needs VI to shoot first. That leaves little space for Lone Wolf.

Right, I missed that. FCS on Vessery's wingmate would be very useful. The only fighter that could carry FCS for Vessery is TIE Phantom. And once again, it should have less or the same pilot skill as Vessery. And low pilot skill on phantom is not a good idea... So only Lambda could help here.

If TIE Defender is so "elite" fighter, why cannot it carry systems upgrade? Why?!

Cluster Missiles would also not be a bad choice on Vessery. If he picked up a TL from an earlier round, he could spend it to use the Cluster Missiles, and then if the target was target locked by Rexler, he could then modifiy his cluster misses with target locks.

As I remember, lone wolf was the choice of that guy from regionals at least on one of the defenders. It would improve survivability, as well as the offensive effectiveness. IMO Rexler should stick with PTL to ensure triggering of Vessery's or his own ability.

To ensure triggering Vessery's ability, Vessery needs VI to shoot first. That leaves little space for Lone Wolf.

I'm going to try something similiar:

Colonel Vessery

TIE Defender

Heavy Laser Cannon, Veteran Instincts, Hull Upgrade or Stealth

Rexler Brath

TIE Defender

Proton Rockets, Heavy Laser Cannon, Push the Limit, Engine Upgrade

I think Vessery without PTL would have little use of EU, so I can change it for sth. cheaper and have points for PRockets.

I think your key mistake is trying to "ensure" Vessery's ability. Look at it as a useful tool in certain circumstances, but don't try to make it an all-the-time thing. For example, it's the most efficient against big ships that you need to hammer on for a while. In those cases, you can TL with Brath and just leave it there, then Brath can do his thing and Vessery can do his. It's a one-turn action tax, but it requires no additional coordination in geometry, target selection, or timing, leaving you free to make the best decisions unhampered by trying to optimize an ability every turn. Additionally, Vessery after his support has died is a bit lackluster. With Lone Wolf, he is a beast. He's incredibly tough to take down and still hits pretty hard.

Cluster Missiles would also not be a bad choice on Vessery. If he picked up a TL from an earlier round, he could spend it to use the Cluster Missiles, and then if the target was target locked by Rexler, he could then modifiy his cluster misses with target locks.

In general, Cluster Missles are solid on Vessery. On a build with an HLC, I think the minimal added gains combined with the target lock requirement make it a better idea to spend 4 points on something else.

I'd go with Wingman on Vessery.

I have been using that ept in a small swarm formation of two black squadrons and howlrunner to allow Rexler to shoot last and maximize its damage.

This is a different scenario however.

Both ships gain more maneuverability with the engine upgrade and after the initial volley it is rather difficult to remain at range 1 to clear Rexler's Stress.

Right, I missed that. FCS on Vessery's wingmate would be very useful. The only fighter that could carry FCS for Vessery is TIE Phantom. And once again, it should have less or the same pilot skill as Vessery. And low pilot skill on phantom is not a good idea... So only Lambda could help here.

If TIE Defender is so "elite" fighter, why cannot it carry systems upgrade? Why?!

I can't follow you here. Yes, FCS is very useful on Vessery's Wingmate. But why does he need to shoot after Vessery? I think your mixing up two things here:

With FCS, you want to shoot before Vessery. This way the FCS carrier can take any action he wants and still take a target lock after shooting. This way Vessery can lock onto the same ship as the FCS carrier. If the FCS carrier shoots after Vessery, whenever you don't have a suitable lock left over from last round, then the ship is forced to take a Target Lock action. Otherwise, Vessery can't make use of his ability.

Vice versa, without FCS, you want to shoot after Vessery.

Side note:

Push the Limit with Turr Phenir (with Targeting Computer) or Ysanne Isard can take target locks at the beginning of the combat phase. The advantage is pretty situational, but it's a nifty trick against high pilot skill ships.

I think your key mistake is trying to "ensure" Vessery's ability. Look at it as a useful tool in certain circumstances, but don't try to make it an all-the-time thing. For example, it's the most efficient against big ships that you need to hammer on for a while. In those cases, you can TL with Brath and just leave it there, then Brath can do his thing and Vessery can do his. It's a one-turn action tax, but it requires no additional coordination in geometry, target selection, or timing, leaving you free to make the best decisions unhampered by trying to optimize an ability every turn. Additionally, Vessery after his support has died is a bit lackluster. With Lone Wolf, he is a beast. He's incredibly tough to take down and still hits pretty hard.

You're entirely right. It makes sense with your point of view. Tactics have to be adjusted according to current situation.

With FCS, you want to shoot before Vessery. This way the FCS carrier can take any action he wants and still take a target lock after shooting. This way Vessery can lock onto the same ship as the FCS carrier. If the FCS carrier shoots after Vessery, whenever you don't have a suitable lock left over from last round, then the ship is forced to take a Target Lock action. Otherwise, Vessery can't make use of his ability.

Yes, it's my noobish mistake thanks for clarification.

Right, I missed that. FCS on Vessery's wingmate would be very useful. The only fighter that could carry FCS for Vessery is TIE Phantom. And once again, it should have less or the same pilot skill as Vessery. And low pilot skill on phantom is not a good idea... So only Lambda could help here.

If TIE Defender is so "elite" fighter, why cannot it carry systems upgrade? Why?!

Actually you want a Tie Phantom with Fire-Control System to fire first as it gets the target lock after the attack. I have been considering a build with Vessery And Whisper for this very reason.

The Buzzsaw makes a pretty good wingman for vessery for 35 pts.

OGP

Weap Eng

Gunner

FCS

EU

(title optional)