I've had a bad run of games, the last four have been lost and the last three have been against exclusively ship builds (empire).

I strongly dislike all ship builds as I feel it goes against how the game is set up but it is legal so I need to know how better to beat them whilst using a well balanced fleet that would also work well against an enemy with a regular spread of squadrons.

Typical fleet I played with last night was a squadron focussed build. 2 VSD2s, Rhymer, 4 bombers, sontir fell.

Tarkin with gunnery steam in 1 VSD, expanded hangers and admiral chiraneu in the other.

Strategy - started off at speed 0 or 1, waiting for them to come to me without leaving the squadrons so far out they couldn't be activated.

Commands, mixed concentrate fire and squadron in the first 3 rounds then switched to repair combined with repair tokens from Tarkin so they could live longer as they're a bit battered by then.

So - what am I doing wrong?

What's a viable anti ship strategy with similar builds? They have such a huge amount of dice to throw.

What mistakes do all players fielding all ship builds make? What mistakes can I turn to my advantage?

Huge appreciation for any help you can give me, starting to get a little peeved with the game which I know is down to how I'm playing but still!

Create a plan based on what you you have, what they have.

Try to stick to your primary aim, e.g. Destroy a particular ship, get 4 objective tokens, etc.

Adapt the plan as you see what your opponent does.

I.e. Exactly what you should do for a mixed fleet.

I'm guessing it's more of a "How should I design my fleet to counter a ship only fleet".

I don't think it matters, assuming FFG have got the balance right, you should select a build that suits YOUR fighting style.

OK, sorry, read your post properly (reading on phone!).

BRB

Don't forget though, you cannot deploy at speed 0 - has to be a speed on your speed/yaw chart on the ship card.

Each situation is going go be different.

As i said a above, set a specific goal and stick with it.

I don't think there will ever be a simple answer due to the vast number of permutations of lists, deployments, tactics, etc.

Personally I don't think there is a fundamental flaw with your list.

Base plan seems ok.

Maybe drop a TA into the fighter wing for Escort. (Sorry! Vs no fighter builds this is stupid! - I need coffee!)

What benefit does Soontir Fel add?

Does it make any difference if you are first or second player?

Objective choice will make a shed load of difference too.

How are you losing, is it on points due to fighter loss or are you regularly losing VSDs?

I've found that the most important thing for fighters is to create a breach for them. If they can attack a hull zone that already has it's shields stripped, then they are much more effective than otherwise. But this is trick to pull off, and requires a coordinated assault from both your capital ships and your fighters, and requires a well timed squadron command as well.

It's easier to pull off with Rebels, IMO. B Wings can be savage.

Why are you waiting for the enemy to come to you? You've basically given the 4 enemy ships a sitting target - your two. Now they can coordinate their approach so they arrive together and overwhelm you. Meanwhile you've kept your squadrons close by, which means they're doing diddly squat for the first half of the game.

Your squadrons should be attacking from turn 1.

Rhymer + speed 4 TIEs plus aggressive deployment ought to get your bombers shooting by turn 2 at the very latest. Squadron command turns 1 and 2!

You should also start your VSD's off at speed 2 and try to refuse a flank. That way your ships are facing the firepower of only part of the enemy forces, not all of them. Then start pounding one enemy ship with your VSD's. Try to double arc when possible.

By this point your TIE bombers should be sitting on someone's nose so they don't need any more command support. The just shoot each turn. The enemy should be overlapping them each turn so you get to stick them back on the nose. Use your commands for your ships, as you planned.

Not sure why you have Chiraneau. He seems of marginal benefit at best. And if this is to be an all comers list, you need more fighters and fewer bombers, otherwise a true balanced list will absolutely take your bombers apart. Fel on his own isn't enough.

Yep, that's when you need yo think about adding the TAs/TIs or even boggo TIEs.

But the initial question was for countering fighter-less lists.

Not sure where the 4 enemy ships done in - the OP specified that it was mostly against Imperial lists (would've mentioned 4 GSD I'm pretty sure), bur regardless of that, 4 or even 5 enemy Rebel lists need to be considered.

Refusing a flank makes sense in many potential scenarios.

Concentration on one target until it drops cannot be emphasised enough.

Certainly, as mentioned above, timing is key.

The trick in any miniwargame I've found is being able to concentrate firepower while refusing them the ability to do so. So, misleading them in deployment, baiting and getting a ship out, with squadrons coming into play to help out.

One good thing about an all ship list is that they'll have no way to tie up your Heavy squadrons, so having a couple Y-Wing squadrons at hand is always good. They don't have a spectacular damage output against ships but it's still good.

Like others have said, creating a breach through the shields is going to be paramount to exponentially increase the fighters' damage output.

@OP, are you playing Rebels or Empire ?

From the Zero fighter support thread, the OP mentioned he plays Empire, and has been facing VVV and VGGG lists.

Interesting !

Off the bat, all ships fleet have both a major advantage and in turn a major disadvantage :

Pros : Super resilience of the entire fleet (especially with Motti), Probably amazing firepower due to all the upgrade cards on the ships

Cons : Firepower is too concentrated into a couple models which are easy to avoid, bad anti-fighter coverage.

What I'd do is to keep with my capital ships slightly out of their long range and force them to come for me while taking pot shots with red dices at a single ship and swarm one ship with the fighters but spread them in different firing arcs so that he can't kill them all in one anti squadron barrages.

In terms of objectives I'm not too familiar yet but objectives forcing him to spread out would seem to work well imho so he can't support anti fighter barrages with multiple ships as effectively.

I don't think your list needs much tweaking. My suggestions would be this:

If possible, let your opponent have initiative so that you go second. Of course, pick a selection of objectives that will favor you. I actually suggest steering clear of any of the objectives that spread out your enemy's ships and start the battle closer to you (Fleet Ambush, Hyperspace assault). This will help your opponent more than you by allowing him to get up close and personal with his black dice very quickly.

Deploy as far from your opponent as possible- the more turns before your ships engage each other the better. If they are playing with 3-4 imperial ships then it's all but guaranteed that are relying on a heap of black dice for damage. Stay out of close range as long as possible.

Pick one ship you're going to take down first. As was said above, this cannot be emphasized enough, especially against all-ship builds. Point all your strategies, ships, squadrons, commands, etc on taking down that one ship, while keeping in mind which one you're going to be going after next.

Send your bombers in turn one with a squadron command. Plant them right in the middle of your target ship's (and secondary targets') flight path(s). With rhymer, you should be able to reach them with your bombs even on turn 1. And for the next couple of turns after that you'll still be able to shoot without moving, so squadron commands aren't as necessary.

Unload bombs on target ship. With any luck, by the time your ships engage your target should be heavily damaged and should fall quickly to your ship fire. Now, you're left with 2-3 enemy ships against your 2 ships with full squadron support. Rinse and repeat.

Don't underestimate gladiators. A couple gladiators with screed and missile can easily take down a VSD on their own.

I won my game the other day using basically these tactics. My opponent had 1VSD with 2GSDs and only a couple of TIEs for support. My list was very similar to yours- 2 VSD-IIs with heavy squadron support. It helped that he picked the objective that lets each player roll an extra die when attacking the opponent's objective ship. Note that that includes attacks made by squadrons. I made his VSD the objective ship and took it down in just 1 round of fire by swarming it with my squadrons followed up by an attack from one of my VSDs, all before I had really taken any damage.

Edit: much typos, such auto-correct failures.

Hmmm you could always start your VSD's in a V shape in the center of the board. This let's you react to the flanks easily and if they go for the center you can swing in and double tap something.

I would also recommend using the Liason's. Tarkin will keep those tokens strong and you can adjust to the tactical situation better in the evolving environment that 4 ships bring.

Oh and sending your fighter out first turn is not the greatest of tactics. It means they are Far out of support range and can't assist in shield stripping (few people use tokens on attacks from squadrons so you can get some cheap and effective shield kills before your current ship attacks.)

Oh and try Vader in place of Fel and the Admiral C. That will give you access to a crit monger that can take shots and won't give points away as easily. Fel is just to squishy to ships Anti-squadron attacks.

Oh and sending your fighter out first turn is not the greatest of tactics. It means they are Far out of support range and can't assist in shield stripping (few people use tokens on attacks from squadrons so you can get some cheap and effective shield kills before your current ship attacks.)

Unless you have Rhymer and your opponent has no squadron support- that medium range bubble covers a lot of space. Just plant Rhymer's bomber swarm directly between your target ships and your own ships. When your opponent runs into your squadrons, especially if it's a VSD, just move all your overlapped squadrons to the front of his ship and let it drag your squadrons along with him. Even if that doesn't happen, your rhymer-bombers should still able to get shots off for a few rounds before needed support from a squadron command, by which point your ships should have moved back into command range.

Wait - what about focusing on objectives?

DrunkinTarkin has a point as well. The issue with a list of 2 VSD's and 2 GSD's is that that is an objective mongering list. It will win at fire lanes, dangerous territory, superior positions, opening Salvo, Most Wanted, Contested outpost, Intel sweep (depending on who gets to set tokens), etc.

The objectives that a list that that would hate would be advanced gunnery, precision strike, hyperspace assault, and minefields.

The issue there is the only one of those with points is precision strike.

Oh and sending your fighter out first turn is not the greatest of tactics. It means they are Far out of support range and can't assist in shield stripping (few people use tokens on attacks from squadrons so you can get some cheap and effective shield kills before your current ship attacks.)

Unless you have Rhymer and your opponent has no squadron support- that medium range bubble covers a lot of space. Just plant Rhymer's bomber swarm directly between your target ships and your own ships. When your opponent runs into your squadrons, especially if it's a VSD, just move all your overlapped squadrons to the front of his ship and let it drag your squadrons along with him. Even if that doesn't happen, your rhymer-bombers should still able to get shots off for a few rounds before needed support from a squadron command, by which point your ships should have moved back into command range.

Perfectly reasonable actually. The issue comes down to the fact that it will force you to focus on the ship you alpha strike, if you don't then that alpha strike is wasted. The problem with it from there is that you are dictating you your opponent on your first turn which ship you have chosen to kill, this is like telegraphing a punch or a kick, they are real easy to either dodge or to use against you.

Also with this set up you WANT to be first player. Being able to send the squadrons forward at a whim and being able to dictate when and where engagements happens is important. Oh and let's not forget that they can't hit and run as easily without the threat of taking a shot.

Also with this set up you WANT to be first player. Being able to send the squadrons forward at a whim and being able to dictate when and where engagements happens is important. Oh and let's not forget that they can't hit and run as easily without the threat of taking a shot.

DrunkinTarkin has a point as well. The issue with a list of 2 VSD's and 2 GSD's is that that is an objective mongering list. It will win at fire lanes, dangerous territory, superior positions, opening Salvo, Most Wanted, Contested outpost, Intel sweep (depending on who gets to set tokens), etc.

The objectives that a list that that would hate would be advanced gunnery, precision strike, hyperspace assault, and minefields.

The issue there is the only one of those with points is precision strike.

Winning the initiative bid and choosing to go second allows you to choose favorable objectives for yourself, and gives you the advantage during the missions. You actually want to consider contested outpost and Intel sweep, as the objectives will dictate where your enemy will move, and YOU set up the objective....and you can set your bombers to be shooting at him the whole way in. As herowannabe said, by the time they reach your ships they will be beat up and should go down easily.

A VVGG fleet has very little room for initiative bids - it can barely just fit in Demolisher + engine techs, and then only if they take all short range ships and use Motti, that's exactly 300. Even a VGGG list will have minimal room for a bid if they want Tarkin, or any significant upgrades.

TL;DR: Going second is a strong option. Your opponent will be choosing your objectives, you get to see where he deploys his first ship and react accordingly, and he will be bringing himself into a swarm of hurt first turn - you did remember to issue squadron commands first turn, right?

Also with this set up you WANT to be first player. Being able to send the squadrons forward at a whim and being able to dictate when and where engagements happens is important. Oh and let's not forget that they can't hit and run as easily without the threat of taking a shot.

DrunkinTarkin has a point as well. The issue with a list of 2 VSD's and 2 GSD's is that that is an objective mongering list. It will win at fire lanes, dangerous territory, superior positions, opening Salvo, Most Wanted, Contested outpost, Intel sweep (depending on who gets to set tokens), etc.

The objectives that a list that that would hate would be advanced gunnery, precision strike, hyperspace assault, and minefields.

The issue there is the only one of those with points is precision strike.

Actually you want to go second. Going second against a fleet with no squadrons is no disadvantage at all - your TIE speed 4 + Rhymer med range attack still allows you to dictate when and where you will engage (compared to pokey old VSDs). Since your opponent has no fighters to lock you down, you may as well go second. In fact it will bring a target ship into range more easily.

Winning the initiative bid and choosing to go second allows you to choose favorable objectives for yourself, and gives you the advantage during the missions. You actually want to consider contested outpost and Intel sweep, as the objectives will dictate where your enemy will move....and you can set your bombers to be shooting at him the whole way in. As herowannabe said, by the time they reach your ships they will be beat up and should go down easily.

A VVGG fleet has very little room for initiative bids - it can barely just fit in Demolisher + engine techs, and then only if they take all short range ships and use Motti, that's exactly 300. Even a VGGG list will have minimal room for a bid if they want Tarkin, or any significant upgrades.

TL;DR: Going second is a strong option. Your opponent will be choosing your objectives, you get to see where he deploys his first ship and react accordingly, and he will be bringing himself into a swarm of hurt first turn - you did remember to issue squadron commands first turn, right?

In addition, like I mentioned above, against a 3-4 ship imperial build you're almost guaranteed to be facing a bunch of black dice. If you go first, you're going to be helping your opponent by moving one of your ships closer to that dreaded range 1 zone, meaning that when he goes he'll be unleashing all of his black dice on you. Better to let him go first, take a couple long range pot shots, then move into your range bands so you can unload all of your black/blue dice on him.

You are going against 4 ships. With you going first, you eliminate a majority of where they can go to. If they go first they can move and scoot and get shots off that will take you down faster. You will be taking anywhere from 2 to 4 arcs in a row. That will kill a VSD. A Demolisher can take down a VSD in that situation. And not worry about being killed because it can then move (or engine techs)

Now going first does make you closer but that also means that you can choose to start at 1 and bank 2 tokens, one a navigation from Tarkin and the second a squadron (or engineering). This let's them rush you as you scope out when to come in and hit them. It also let's you set up your positions and gives you time to react to what they are doing. Speed 2 will kill the time you need to react. Remember, even if you get a single kill on turn 6, if they killed no ships you have won

This is the kind of list I would run.

VSD and Squads (294pts)

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (139pts)

Assault Concussion Missiles (7pts)

Expanded Hangar Bay (5pts)

X17 Turbolasers (6pts)

•Admiral Chiraneau (10pts)

•Grand Moff Tarkin (38pts)

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (91pts)

Assault Concussion Missiles (7pts)

Expanded Hangar Bay (5pts)

X17 Turbolasers (6pts)

Squadrons (64pts)

TIE Bomber Squadron (9pts)

TIE Bomber Squadron (9pts)

TIE Bomber Squadron (9pts)

•Darth Vader (21pts)

•Major Rhymer (16pts)

Precision Strike

Contested Outpost

Intel Sweep

Yes I realized I could take out the 2 ACMs and get another 2 bombers bit the point of the ACMs is to make them think twice about entering black dice range. If they do they will likely take a pounding and only be able to redirect a single point.

A majority of my battles have been against less then 4 squadrons of fighters. The only thing i do it try to flank to one side, and concentrate my fire to the flanking side and leave one ship out of the battle.

You are going against 4 ships. With you going first, you eliminate a majority of where they can go to. If they go first they can move and scoot and get shots off that will take you down faster. You will be taking anywhere from 2 to 4 arcs in a row. That will kill a VSD. A Demolisher can take down a VSD in that situation. And not worry about being killed because it can then move (or engine techs)

Now going first does make you closer but that also means that you can choose to start at 1 and bank 2 tokens, one a navigation from Tarkin and the second a squadron (or engineering). This let's them rush you as you scope out when to come in and hit them. It also let's you set up your positions and gives you time to react to what they are doing. Speed 2 will kill the time you need to react. Remember, even if you get a single kill on turn 6, if they killed no ships you have won

Your (excellent) points are all true and valid, Lyraeus. But then, so are all the other ones in this thread.

That's why I love this game - there's no easy answers, anything can work (or not)!

Tetsugaku-san, you should think on all that's been posted. Then analyze your past games, and see what learning points you can distill. Then you shall start upon the path....to Victory!

Each person can create their style of play, some use objectives, some control the state of the game, some just kill things. Each type of tactic is possible and each strategy has merit.

I seem to lose when I go second so I think my mind needs to work on that so I can swap between such things.

DrunkTarkin, you guys should talk about that in the next IFF broadcast. I think this is a great example.