I keep hearing talk of this alternate ending , some hate it while others love it. Now knowing 2 of 3 alternate endings in Frostmarch (Warlocks and Frost Queen) some have been saying this may be the 3rd ending. I havent played any edition other than 4th so if someone could maybe post what this ending does or a picture I would appreciate it because it has peaked my interest

Third ending is "Crown and Sceptre" which might be the standard Crown of Command, with something new/extra from the Sceptre bit. You can see the card title on Talismanisland.com main page.

As to what my beloved HBV does:

"You are immediately sucked into its core and annihilated along with all of your possessions (discard) – you lose the game."

(from the Expert Rulebook, can't recall the vanilla wording, but the gist is there)

Also, unlike in the 2nd ed. I think the alternate ending is meant to be chosen at the start of the game and be openly known to all.

EWWWWWWWWW

Probably tells more about the type of gamers me and my cousins were back in the day, but whenever someone made it to the Crown and drew HBV, the laughter that followed probably hit triple-digits in desibels. It was even louder if the person who made it to the Crown had been kicking the other characters' butts all game long . That's the reason I loved and still want HBV to appear, might not be the type of finish many/most people enjoy, but to me it's just one more twist that Talisman can deliver. Transference from Reaper added a bit of uncertainty to the end-game, which I like.

In second edition, if you played with the Timescape expansion as well, the Horrible Black Void would suck you into the Timescape instead of ending your game. That could be quite funny, too. Especially when high strength/low craft characters were forced to struggle with all the weird aliens in the Timescape instead of just winning...

I've only played Timescape once. Since then, it's like the Highlander sequels, never happened !

If you check out my old post at

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=49&efcid=1&efidt=201761

you'll see the original alternative endings which I've tweaked to make them work with the new edtion

Geoff

Lubricus said:

I am not a big fan of Horrible Black Void or of Timescape. However, the fact that the former takes you to the latter was my favourite aspect of both of them! I like that.

I like some of the options C.V. came up with, but I'm not a fan of Timescape. And in hating that expansion, I think I'd have to come up with some other option for the Void non-expansion play. Most of the groups I played with in the old days wouldn't allow that card... and neither would I.

The thing about the horrible black void was that for all it's horrible black unfairness it was actually a very apt card for Talisman. I remember playing a game of second edition (without Timescape) which had lasted for the best part of the weekend simply because nobody wanted to go to the middle; but just kept getting stronger and stronger. Eventually I decided I had had enough and made my way through the inner region with ease (I think that by that point my Warrior had more than twenty strength and craft) and got to the middle. It was a one in six chance and I got... void...

Noooooo!! (which is probably the kind of noise my character would have made as he was sucked into the abyss).

My friend then on to breeze through the Dungeon with his starting Monk character (his first and second characters had died sometime earlier) on his very last life, roll a six at the treasure chamber (that one in six again) and get himself teleported to the middle. It was a dragon king... who wasn't home because he rolled another six and took all of his treasure and won. Still gotta love that ending card though; it's just so completely unfair (a bit like rolling a one when the reaper lands on you) that it always caused me a lot of amusement.

Part of the Void's problem is exactly within what you describe. We play for the adventure (then and now) more than the ending blood bath (which throws out the basis of half the characters as well as any Alignment lip-service). Building up real adventurers is what we do, and quite often, objects and magic objects get blitz throughout the game in PvP. We're very hardcore about our adventurers, and quite often the winner's dominant attribute is built on maybe 1/4 addons and freebies.

The alternative endings were great relief to us in the old days (and I'm looking forward to seeing what's in Frostmarch) vs. the boring kill-all of the standard endgame. But with effort put in to meeting the level of challenge and time we put into our games, the Void was nonsense. If it were really there, ever, it would be the last thing in the land. No other ending could ever be present for another adventure... it would have sucked all the others away. How it got there and then went away couldn't be reasoned like the other endings. We actually had a round of beers and toasts one night as we burned it after it popped up the third time. No one objected.

Void is the game playing the players, and my groups have always preferred the other way around. It was completely outside the theme of the game's established mythos... as was Timescape. But... to each their own.

The whole Dungeon shortcut is another matter, but it didn't happen often enough to get annoying. Not so sure these days, as I only play it when a remote friend who owns it comes around a couple times per year. We've never seen anyone use a Fate (none left) when it came time for that final roll. Then again, we have harder rules about what Fate can be used for. I'm wondering if anyone has seen Fate used to alter the final Dungeon roll.

I once managed to draw the Void 3 times in one game! Thankfully I was using the Timescape so it could have been worse.

The quickest game I had with the 2nd ed dungeon was a win in 15 minutes. I drew a dungeon door on the first turn, managed to get lucky with the Dungeon cards, got a 6 at the end, drew the Dragon King who was away from home. Waheyy!

Wouldn't even like to guess what my longest game was...

Well, at least when the game is that ridiculously short you can start another right away without burning into the wee-hours.

JCHendee said:

I very much agree with this assessment, but I think that this very much illustrates the big differance between 2nd edition talisman and the revised 4th edition we have today. Revised 4th edition simply feels like a tighter and better playtested game that has been designed to be somewhat balanced and fair. It's also a much quicker game to play. 2nd edition - particularly when combined with it's varied and bizarre expansions - was just this crazy trip. Because luck was such a decisive factor back then, I found it impossible to be bothered when things went horribly wrong because of it. It's not as if I had made some major tactical mess up or anything. Certainly there's be nothing fun about being sucked into a void; but I never held it against the game (or felt the urge for an impromptu card cremation).

I would much rather play 4th edition though, because - particularly with the edition of fate tokens - I can generally expect to do fairly well if I make good decisions (with less chance of being shafted by an unlucky roll) and also finish up a game in a reasonable time. That and the fact the components are of a much, much better quality of course. I too am very much looking forward to the alternative ending options in Frostmarch.

Hey Vandimar, in general I can see your assessment as more than valid, but only from the 4ER point of view. Where you seen craziness in 2E, I see a better focus on the adventure along the way and not so much on the "big guns" for a quicker kill / quicker win.

Also, movement modifying cards were more for actual control of where you land than the stuff in 4ER. You are right about the quality of the components for the new edition, no argument there, but that doesn't really bear upon the mechanics, does it? 2E, though certainly as random as most boardgames, still had cards that let you make tactical choices and achieve them. Its Horse is one example vs the 4ER version (which I hate), if you remember the difference; there are many other comparisons as well.

There's no doubt that speed of play is what 4ER is about, and in a fast game, maybe the Void isn't as much of an annoyance. If you pull that ending, it doesn't matter as much, since you can start over and hope to draw enough toys to catch up. But I'll take the long road for the sake of the journey, since achieving the destination just ends all the fun along the way. From that perspective, the Void is the real craziness of 2E thrown into 4ER. Wouldn't be a terrible resurrection, since there are people who still get a thrill out of it. But I'd rather have something new, or one of the old cards that let you DO something, once you got to the CoC.

Overall, Fate as used by the standard rules isn't really that effective. If you know how to analyze the statistics of separate rather than joined or compound rolls, it really doesn't do a lot and it is completely random and non-tactical. It's just a desperater "do-over" and that's all. We have limits in our group on what rolls it can really be used for, but we also have better mechanics for how it can used in actual tactical choices.

Of coures its worthless either way against the Void.

JCHendee said:

Just to touch on this, what were the rules back in the day (2nd ed), when were you perma-dead? In the 4th, once someone hits the CoC, any death after it is perma, you're out. HBV kills you at the CoC, so in the 4th you'd be out.

Correct, as far as I remember. If the CoC is held by someone, and you die, you're done.

We also played that once the CoC was taken by anyone for any reason on any endgame... I'm not sure at the moment if that ended all resurrection or restart/reset of characters should someone take the CoC and be killed from afar before someone else gets them. But that's also the way we played it. It avoided situations of having to decide when resurrection was suddenly back in play.

So if the Black Void came up, and you die, you sit and spin while the game goes on. Hence why the Void was permanently put to rest over beers and cheers above the flames.

Something similar happened today. The game got off to a flyer, Assassin goes first, draws Magic Stream, Amazon next, to the Ruins, draws Sword + Potion of Might and rolls a 6 for the Potion. Next turn, she and the Troll both hit the Magic Stream and the turn after that the Assassin drains it. Soon after, the Amazon jumps on the Assassin and takes his Flying Carpet, to create the nasty combo once again. Pretty soon, she hits the Dungeon and abuses the Flying Carpet to hit the Vaults. She does get a blip once, drawing Str 16 combo, but soon kills them anyway. 40 minutes into the game, she attacks the LoD with a 10-point advantage, wins by 8, off to the Crown. Assassin was killed by the Troll earlier and replaced by the Knight, who falls quickly to the Command Spell. But the Troll is now Good and has a butt-load of money, he hangs on for 25 more minutes before finally croaking. It was once of the longest end games in memory though.

JCHendee said:

Ah yes. We did have to houserule that one. In our games in the unfortunate event that someone was voided we did let them take another character.

By the time someone got to the CoC in 2E, if they drew the Void, it was often pointless to start over since others were on your tail. The Void couldn't be drawn again in the same game, and it was over soon enough. With the time frame of 4ER games, it would be even more pointless to "re-spawn" with a new character. You'd be hopelessly behind, and half the toys needed for quick catch up are probably already in the hands of others. So I think not only was Void a bad idea, it's probably not real compatible with what now drives 4ER.

Oh, and by the by, 25+ minutes for a final endgame by the base rules is nothing. That's actually short compared to a real slog-fest by 2E standards. When we used the alternate endings en masse by random draw, only the actual Crown ended the game immediately. (We grew bored real fast with the ol' Command Spell routine.) Other endings were, such as the Belt, were the most enjoyed, and could kick the PvP into high mode for an hour or so.

I've been thinking HBV should have come with Timescape and not with the other expansion. HBV was only fair if you had Timescape anyway. Furthermore, the Timescape should only have been accessible via that ending. Then Timescape would only come up endgame, not every game, and would serve only to delay (but power-up) or sometimes kill off those characters powerful enough to have reached the Coc.

Cidervampire said:

The quickest game that I won was in 5 turns. This was in the 3rd Edition, which was easier to play and win. I started with a Finger of Death spell and on my second turn got a talisman as an adventure card. In the 3rd Edition, there is no Str 9 Sentinel, you simply pay 1 Gp at the tollbridge to get to the middle region. Then, to win the game, you get to the inner region (which only has 1 space, but you might lose objects and followers, which I had none to lose) and fight the Str 12 Dragon King to win. So, I just paid my gold, went straight to the Dragon King and used Finger of Death. Tada! Quick win.

Personally, I think there isn’t ENOUGH HBV type things. I know many of you don’t like the “Game playing you.” But I hate it the other way. Our group loves the Death-rolls-1, Basilisk rolling doubles, and, if we ever get one, the HBV ending. It is an awesome equalizer.

If you’re behind, getting killed by a Basilisk or HBV often doesn’t matter that much. There’s often a clear winner in our games, everyone else trailing behind. Even if there isn’t, it’s a fun enjoyable (to us) randomizer. But, if there’s a clear winner, way ahead of the rest, if s/he get Death-roll-1ed, say, suddenly, we’re all back in the game. Anything to beat down the person ahead.

HBV is the ultimate equalizer. Chances are, the person in the CoC is the top dog, and, we’re all back in the game with HBV. Sure, there’s the odd Hail Mary play by The Dwarf, or someone with the Gnome Follower, someone with a pocket full of Fate, or some such, but, lets be real here, the first person in the center is usually the leader. HBV takes him out.

Not liking HBV is your right, but, for me, anything that increases randomness is more fun. Heck, most board games are like that.

-Monopoly? You roll. You land. You have money? You buy / pay rent.
-Life? Roll. See what happens. You have, like, 4-6 divergent paths i.e. 4-6 choices for the entire game! The rest is “see what you roll”.
-Aggravation? Sure, you have 4 balls in play. But, depending on how many are Home or in Base, you sometimes only have 1 play.
-etc…

Anything giving you control, especially something that’s endgame, is not fun for us, and, counter to many, and I’d dare say most board games out there. HBV is just one thing, at the end of the game, in the last, what, 15 min of the game, if that?

Far, FAR more damaging is stuff that allows you to control movement. I love the 2D6 horse. I’d hate the Pick add +1-3 (depending on horse) horse. Movement > all, and, removes the randomness.

Really, would you ever land on the Chasm or the Desert (without a water bottle) if you had a normal Draw Card or Card at +2 spot if you had an option? They are avoided enough as it is. Lets be fair here, sure, you can come up with “Land on Chasm with the Hag” scenario, but 99.99% of the time out there, you will never land on it ever. Might as well duct tape a “No one lands here” sign on spots like the Chasm, Desert, etc… with movement control.

If ever I had an urge to burn a card, it would never be my beloved HBV (assuming it ever comes in 4ER), it’d be the Clockwork owl. You roll. And you pick UP TO the number. Sure, that’s the ultimate “avoid the game playing you”, sure you get control, but control so sucks (well, to everyone except the owner).

Last game, the owner of the Clockwork Owl had 2 Toadify spells. She landed on me. Toad. Then, I hop 1 x3 Turns. She can then follow, turn by turn, and essentially insta-win (anyone beating LoD can certainly take out a 1/1 Toad) x3. I died. Then, the same to another character. Toad. Life + 3 lives after. Even had there not been a toad, you have a slight hope if you roll higher than the Owl-rider (in movement or in battle), but, common things being common, you’re toast. Apply that to horses / spells that allow movement control of +1 to 3.

So, put me in firmly in the loves HBV crowd. I’m hoping for less devenomed cards (cf Call of the Wendigo) and more cards with “bite” (cf Basilisk) in future expansions. Oh, and if any card has to fear the fire, it’s Clockwork Owl (followed closely by The Hunchback), but, in all honesty, I’d never do that. Why? Know your crowd.

You hate it and burned it? Np. Your game to do with as you wish. But as soon as I’d hear of cards arbitrarily being removed, I’d pass completely on playing Talisman and want to watch a video instead. Hopefully, your friends were unanimous in this, or I feel bad for the minority that see their fun go up in smoke.

But that’s just me.