The whole point that a match win over a modified win is that the winner won by more than one ship. Now since not all ships are equal and some ships are worth more fore example killing a Fat Han is worth way more points than killing an Academy pilot you have to go by MOV to determine how much each kill is worth. A modified win says that a person theoretically won by 1 ship the lowest point cost be it academy pilot, bandit squadron pilot or bynree pilot. If the margin of victory is less than 12 points then you really can't say that the victor won by one kill more thus a modified win as it was close but it one person happen to kill higher value ships.

However that is the whole concern is with MOV and all the meta talk right now as amount of damage done is not necessarily equal to victory points. Point fortresses help to retain the amount of points so that even if only 3 TIE fighters are destroyed and the Fat Han is at 1 hit point left. Sure the Fat falcon took more than 9 hits but it counts as 0 victory points for the match. Thus the full win and 5 match points go to the Fat Han.

You keep dodging the fact that we have absolutely no problem determining the winner as being by 1 if it is an elimination round. If it good enough for the important part of the tournament, then it should be good enough for the rest of it, so why have modified wins at all? So why persist with the belief that you "have" to win by the completely arbitrary "more than 12". At the most important part of a tournament we precisely do not care if you won by 12 (otherwise we would have with some form of overtime or untimed matches).

...

Name me a sport that penalises a player/team because they did not win by "enough"...the only one I can come up with that is remotely close is Super Rugby where teams scores a bonus point for scoring 4 or more tries. Bear in mind this system has less impact because A. wins and bonus points wins are reasonably close to together (4 versus 5 point) and B. there are bonus points for close losses (being within less than 7 points) and C. they play more games across the season so a single game has less impact overall.

....

I guess I think of X-Wing as a 'war' instead of a 'sport' and in a war both sides can win/lose despite having differing losses.

As for sports I'd say there are actually PLENTY of places where "win by enough" could come into play. Right now there are a lot of sports that are putting an extreme degree of faith into various timekeeping methods. If you had a swim clock off by .01 seconds that could easily cover a margin between two competitors. In the sledding sports you're run into the same types of issues if the quality of timekeeping wasn't accepted. Even now an occasional "dead heat" happens although some will say there could be an actual "winner" if results were carried out to even more decimal places.

I'm afraid we live in a society that likes nothing more than to put down anyone who isn't the very best and can only recognize one at that level. Someone could have bettered the world record in an event yet they are forgotten because someone else also happened to do that as well. I believe things would be a lot better if we would actually learn to accept that more than one side can be the best at something.

The whole point that a match win over a modified win is that the winner won by more than one ship. Now since not all ships are equal and some ships are worth more fore example killing a Fat Han is worth way more points than killing an Academy pilot you have to go by MOV to determine how much each kill is worth. A modified win says that a person theoretically won by 1 ship the lowest point cost be it academy pilot, bandit squadron pilot or bynree pilot. If the margin of victory is less than 12 points then you really can't say that the victor won by one kill more thus a modified win as it was close but it one person happen to kill higher value ships.

However that is the whole concern is with MOV and all the meta talk right now as amount of damage done is not necessarily equal to victory points. Point fortresses help to retain the amount of points so that even if only 3 TIE fighters are destroyed and the Fat Han is at 1 hit point left. Sure the Fat falcon took more than 9 hits but it counts as 0 victory points for the match. Thus the full win and 5 match points go to the Fat Han.

You keep dodging the fact that we have absolutely no problem determining the winner as being by 1 if it is an elimination round. If it good enough for the important part of the tournament, then it should be good enough for the rest of it, so why have modified wins at all? So why persist with the belief that you "have" to win by the completely arbitrary "more than 12". At the most important part of a tournament we precisely do not care if you won by 12 (otherwise we would have with some form of overtime or untimed matches).

Actually that is the problem, and I am not dodging it. 1 point is not really that much of a win. Sure there is some problems that the other player still gets nothing instead of a draw. The 12 points lead is to determine the winner by 1 whole ship. Say if you have 8 academy pilots vs 8 academy pilots (or bandit squadron pilots) the winner would be who destroyed the most ships. Since most match ups don't go like that (for good reasons) the 12 point win is needed to determine if one player has won by at least a ship.

Now at the final round it is untimed so there is only one victory condition, table your opponent. However you have to get there first and that is where those modified match wins and MOV by time come into effect. Now again tabling your opponent is a win no matter what the MOV was even if you loss everything in your 100 point squadron except your Natasha Pup which is the only thing left.

This weekend I had a peculiar experience: I was eliminated from the German Nationals after three rounds while still being undefeated.

The final round of the German Nationals was a 32 player tournament (after 2 flights with 64 players each and there were additonal spots reserved for regional winners). The tournament had 5 rounds of Swiss and a Top-4 cut, so one needed at least 20 out of 25 possible points to reach the cut. I won a modified victory in round 1; in round 2 I had a full match win and in round 3 I had a draw.

So after round 3 I had 9 points and lost all chances to reach the cut as I needed 20 The modified win in round 1 was nearly as bad as a loss, as I could not afford to lose or to draw another game. A 2-point-reward for a draw would have at least softened the punishment for drawing.

This weekend I had a peculiar experience: I was eliminated from the German Nationals after three rounds while still being undefeated.

The final round of the German Nationals was a 32 player tournament (after 2 flights with 64 players each and there were additonal spots reserved for regional winners). The tournament had 5 rounds of Swiss and a Top-4 cut, so one needed at least 20 out of 25 possible points to reach the cut. I won a modified victory in round 1; in round 2 I had a full match win and in round 3 I had a draw.

So after round 3 I had 9 points and lost all chances to reach the cut as I needed 20 The modified win in round 1 was nearly as bad as a loss, as I could not afford to lose or to draw another game. A 2-point-reward for a draw would have at least softened the punishment for drawing.

Wait, I'm confused about your comment stating that your round 1 modified win wouldn't have allowed you to have a 2nd modified win without missing the cut?

If you had 3 full wins and 2 modified wins that's 21 points and above the 20 point threshold you said was required to have a chance at the top 4?

The way I see it, based upon how you described everything it was in fact the draw that killed you.

It's a bummer that you hadn't lost yet and we're eliminated but with such a competitive setting and just a select few (four) competitors making the cut I don't see an issue with the scoring. You weren't quite good enough in a very tough field.

This weekend I had a peculiar experience: I was eliminated from the German Nationals after three rounds while still being undefeated.

The final round of the German Nationals was a 32 player tournament (after 2 flights with 64 players each and there were additonal spots reserved for regional winners). The tournament had 5 rounds of Swiss and a Top-4 cut, so one needed at least 20 out of 25 possible points to reach the cut. I won a modified victory in round 1; in round 2 I had a full match win and in round 3 I had a draw.

So after round 3 I had 9 points and lost all chances to reach the cut as I needed 20 The modified win in round 1 was nearly as bad as a loss, as I could not afford to lose or to draw another game. A 2-point-reward for a draw would have at least softened the punishment for drawing.

While technically undefeated you were not unanimously victorious either; you only had 1 real win, one win via time and <12 points, and 1 not win but not loss. I'm not sure that it's very strange that that record was not good enough to meet the 4/5 win requirement.

This weekend I had a peculiar experience: I was eliminated from the German Nationals after three rounds while still being undefeated.

The final round of the German Nationals was a 32 player tournament (after 2 flights with 64 players each and there were additonal spots reserved for regional winners). The tournament had 5 rounds of Swiss and a Top-4 cut, so one needed at least 20 out of 25 possible points to reach the cut. I won a modified victory in round 1; in round 2 I had a full match win and in round 3 I had a draw.

So after round 3 I had 9 points and lost all chances to reach the cut as I needed 20 The modified win in round 1 was nearly as bad as a loss, as I could not afford to lose or to draw another game. A 2-point-reward for a draw would have at least softened the punishment for drawing.

In large tournament with small cuts, a modified win is essentially a loss. Only getting 3 tournament points instead of the full 5 points will cause you to lose just about all the tie breakers against anyone else with your same "record". The one benefit of this is that in the end game, even a play up by 0-11 points has almost no incentive to run and trying to secure a win at time.

In larger tournaments anything less than the 5 full points should probably be counted by yourself as a loss. So, if you know you'll need 4 wins to make a cut, you'll need 4 full 5 point wins. After all, record really doesn't matter, tournament points are what matters. Record is just an easy shorthand players use to quickly compare standings.

This weekend i was in the exact same position. Win, modified win, draw and loss, to point that my draw was against a mirror in which time run out with opponent last ship with 1 hull, and modified win was just so close for like 10 or 11 points victory.

I dont really understand this system, i would argue that at least a modified win and a draw is the same as a win and a loss. People assume that all the draws and modified wins happens cuz of fortifications but at the end of the day thats not the way to fix fortifications, just to save it for the day.

If we dont want a modified win and a draw to be at least the same as win+loss then why do we even have modified wins? just make wins and draws at 12 or less mov.

EDIT: Mod win+draw = win+loss

Maybe there should be a point difference between a 100:100 draw and a for example an 88:88 draw

The problem with your logic is that you count the modified win as a win, when it is more like a draw. In the current system in order to get an actual draw, points must be dead even, and full win is 12 points more. If you end the game with less than a tie fighter more than your opponent... as far as I am concerned it is a draw and you were lucky to get 3 points.

So your buddies 2 wins and 2 losses are better than your 1 win 1 loss and 2 draws.

Um, but you are completely wrong, because in elimination rounds a modified win is enough to advance, so it is clearly a win.

I am all for scrapping modified wins and treating victories of less than 12 points as a draw. As pointing out in the original post Modified Wins essentially help no one. I could understand it if a modified loss also gained points, but they currently don't.

Win 5 pts

Draw (<12 MoV) 2 pts

Loss 0 pts

(this has issues with logic in elimination rounds as pointed out above, but no worse than we currently have, maybe we should go to "golden ship" in elimination rounds, next kills wins).

or

Win 5 pts

Modified Win 3 pts

Modified Loss 1 pt

Draw 2 pts

Loss 0 pts

Would be my preferred alternatives.

Edit: I know, I know... it's spelt losses, not loses.

It doesn't matter what kind of scoring system and tie-breakers are used.

There will always be people who miss the cut and they will feel like they 'should' have made it in.

Want to make it in? Win all of your games. Your tournament fate is in your hands.

This weekend i was in the exact same position. Win, modified win, draw and loss, to point that my draw was against a mirror in which time run out with opponent last ship with 1 hull, and modified win was just so close for like 10 or 11 points victory.

I dont really understand this system, i would argue that at least a modified win and a draw is the same as a win and a loss. People assume that all the draws and modified wins happens cuz of fortifications but at the end of the day thats not the way to fix fortifications, just to save it for the day.

If we dont want a modified win and a draw to be at least the same as win+loss then why do we even have modified wins? just make wins and draws at 12 or less mov.

EDIT: Mod win+draw = win+loss

You got to remember it is not just about the match points handed to the players but the match points retained by the tournament. With each match that is not a full win/loss the tournament retains a portion of the points.

So how most matches end

win/loss

win 5 points / loss 0 points; 0 points retained by tournament

and the match up in question

modified win/loss

modified win 3 points / loss 0 points; 2 points retained by the tournament.

and where there are no winners

draw/draw

draw 1 point / draw 1 point; 3 points retained by the tournament.

So why should these tournaments be so stingy with their match points. Why should they take anything away for not being a full win? The answer is in byes. Byes add in a surplus of match points. 5 points in each round. Now as I said in an earlier post any bye after the second round is pointless as you the only player who would get byes are those that have 2 or more losses but most tournaments follow the same score system as regionals and other premier events to keep up with consistency of premier competitive play. And regionals is where you start dealing with super-byes almost to the point where the tournament now has a surplus of match points on the table and needs to take some away to make up the deficit so that there is a top cut at the end of the swiss rounds.

So just to explain the bye system a bit more say a tournament of 9 players. odd but more than 8.

1st round will give out a maximum 25 match points, (4 win/loss and bye) to a minimum of 13 points (4 draws and a bye). The next round will do the same. So in two rounds there will be about 50 points distributed among the 9 players. Compare that to 8 players where in two rounds there would only be 40 points distributed among 8 players.

1st round will give out a maximum 25 match points, (4 win/loss and bye) to a minimum of 13 points (4 draws and a bye). The next round will do the same. So in two rounds there will be about 50 points distributed among the 9 players. Compare that to 8 players where in two rounds there would only be 40 points distributed among 8 players.

I fail to see how that matters at all, or how the scoring should consider it. I realize the point you're trying to make is when there are 8 players, each player gets 2.5 points per round, while when there are 9 players, that goes up to 2.78 points per round. But then 10 players brings it back down to 2.5 points per round... It will always be 2.5 for even, and as you approach infinity, odds will approach the same 2.5 ppr.

But why does that matter at all? Points awarded is an arbitrary number, and as it increases, the score required to make the cut increases. In the example recently given, where there's a 32 player tourney with a cut to top 4, if there were only 31 players, there really wouldn't be any difference.

Sure, 5 rounds are being played, so 12.5 points are being "given" away... But only the first two actually matter. Since you have to go at least 4-1 to make it, only the first two byes matter. And in all honesty, only the first bye matters. If you got tabled the first round, and only receive a MOV of 150 from the second round (via the bye), you're going to be very hard pressed to catch up to the other 4-1 players MoV. There are 5 players at 4-1, and only 3 make the cut. They have a maximum MoV of 899, and a minimum of 448, but more than likely around 750 (based on MoV required to make the cut at various regionals, adjusted for 5 rounds). However, the bye player can only achieve a maximum of 750 - if he tables everyone in rounds 3-5.

So, the only bye that really matters is the bye in the first round. It can jump start someone to the perfect 5-0, though that also means that person would probably have made it anyways at 4-1, so getting the bye doesn't really adjust the field, or he can get in by going 3-1, but losing that 50 MoV is going to make it extremely difficult to make the cut (as described in the above section). It's a bit easier for the first round bye player since he can get some MoV from his loss.

So, doing a full circle, I'm not quite sure why the points per player matter at all.

For reference, applying my 4 point system to the German Nationals, going 4-1 would be equivalent to needing 16 points to make the cut. Going with a Win, Modified Win, and a Draw would yield 4 + 3 + 2 = 9 points, leaving the player capable of getting 16 points by winning out (one could even be a modified). Therefore, a 3.8-0-1.2 (using decimals to indicate modified) would still be "in the running," but his MoV would likely be waaay too low to make the cut, seeing as 2 of his 4 wins were by 11 points or less, and a 3rd match yielded 100 MoV, putting his maximum at 722, below the 750 threshold I stated earlier. However, a 3.9-0-1.1 player would have 17 points, and regardless of MoV would make the cut. Therefore, a Mod Win + Draw > Win + Loss. More importantly though, a Mod Win + Mod Loss == Win + Loss. So someone who plays close games gets credit for the win % the same as someone who plays high risk high reward games.

I'm sorry but if you have a draw in an extremely competitive tournament (and a field of 32 w/ cut to top 4 definitely qualifies as such) then you have to know that result is going to severely hamper you.

It's unfortunate if you don't understand that beforehand but that's not a new thing at all.

The issue i see is not with the draw moving you down, is the modified win that does not count as a valuable result, mod win is like draw or loss at a tournament so why do we need it?

So i assume every result not a win is a bad result, so dont confuse the players with more possible results that dont matter. A draw does not matter when its 1/5 of a win in a 5 round tournament unless there are a lot of draws, id say a draw is only worth when you have already won enough to make the cut.

Given this it would be better to give players the philosophy of go for the big win and the easiest way to give players this philosophy is just remove the mod win or make it valuable.