5 VSDs would cover a lot of real estate with their arcs too. Might consider staggering them in a 3 in front, 2 behind W formation. If someone does get behind you, they eat the front arc of at least one of the second row vics. I'd be really interested to try this out actually. feels imperial too.
Other option might be a line of 4 with a single rear guard. I might consider a demolisher as the rear guard so it can respond to anything that makes it past the line.
5 VSDs would cover a lot of real estate with their arcs too. Might consider staggering them in a 3 in front, 2 behind W formation. If someone does get behind you, they eat the front arc of at least one of the second row vics. I'd be really interested to try this out actually. feels imperial too.
Other option might be a line of 4 with a single rear guard. I might consider a demolisher as the rear guard so it can respond to anything that makes it past the line.
Exactly. But imagine what the Rebels could throw in at 400 points... and there are the Imperial Class Star Destroyers which i bet could eat your Victories ...
If you really want to go no fighter, then I'd suggest you stick to Assault Frigates and Corvettes. The Assault Frigate gives you something more beefy with good all around shield coverage and maneuverability. The corvette gives you incredibly speed and efficient firepower, and you can always just get out of dodge if you are about to get swarmed by bombers. I'd stay away from the Neb. Even though it brings good AS dice it's flanks and lack of redirect make it incredibly vulnerable to bombing runs.
I disagree with this assessment - if you run no fighters, you:
1) kill all the enemy ships first
or
2) kill all the enemy fighters first with AA fire (really only practical when facing Imperials)
or
3) ignore the enemy fighters through speed
If you take AF's, you won't have enough AA fire to take down the enemy fighters quickly, and though you have the shields to take the hits, that leaves you vulnerable to enemy ship fire. And 2 AF's are unlikely to execute mission #1 reliably quickly before they get swarmed.
Corvettes are fine for strategy #3. But for strategy #2 nothing beats the Nebulon. And with 1 AF and 2-3 Nebulons you have the option of executing strategy #1 or #2.
Edited by MaturinI really don't think AS fire of any sort is a feasible counter to squadrons on its own. Sure, it's amazing when used in concentrate with your own squadrons but is has two huge issues when used on its own
1.) simply not enough dice and pre-measuring is going to make it very difficult to stack fire since you have no squadrons for the enemy to engage or vice-versa, so there's nothing stopping the from focus firing one ship while out of range of others or forcing obstructed shots through the primary target
2.) it'll eat your anti-ship attacks and nebs don't get gunnery team. cap ships and squadrons approaching the same arc are going to give nebs a hell of a time if the don't have squadrons of their own
Afmkiis at least have the speed and firepower distribution to outrun certain squadrons whereas a neb on the run is forfeiting its strongest arc. Speed is essential to outpacing squadrons (especially the slower rebel bombers) and while the Neb has it, it doesn't play to its strong front arc (especially important when running 0 squadron, given the only means of significantly increasing their anti-ship output is salvation)
Escort Nebs aren't an amazing pure combat ship. As the name implies, they're best suited for escorting squadrons. They make a very powerful floatilla with squadrons covering them and them covering squadrons.
Edited by ficklegreendiceYou're right, fickle. I had in mind one or two A-wings running out to pin down enemy fighters for the Nebs to blast. So I guess I meant "minimal fighters" when I said "no fighters". 
I think you could do it, but to me it seems that the upgrade card in this game are really, really good. (I cout fighters as upgrade cards).
Right now, if memory serves, yu could run VVVG. How many of those fleets have you encountered?
I would say the primary advance that Bomber will give yu against pure fleet builds is you can really, really concentrate firepower wih those small bases. This will lead to very rapid destruction of your flanks.
Thinking about other 5VSD deployment options:
1 straight up the middle speed 1
2 on each flank in Line astern facing inwards at about 45 degrees speed 2
(I should probably make some diagrams...)
But this should give a basic overview...
// ^ \\
The pairs cover the centre ship, the trailer covers its leader.
As needed the trailing VSD turns off to face flankers
Gives good arc coverage.
Obviously I need to put some "plastic on the mat" to see if it is viable...
5 VSDs? That's a lot of points. Not talking 300 points any longer?
five vsds doesn't seem terribly great, especially because they're lowly Vic-1s
seems you'd just get more out of either 4 VSD-2s w/ol' Widow's Peak and some hefty upgrades (titles?) or 6 Glad-1s w/Skreed (362) and 5 ACM (397)
Edited by ficklegreendiceI just won with 0 fighter support last night. It tends to be much more do-able if you're playing against imps who aren't loaded with bombers because 3 out of their 4 fighter squadron types focus on blasting other squadrons out of space.
My build was 1 Guppy Mark II A with expanded armaments, General Dodonna on board, Raymon Antilles or whatever his name is, Electronic Countermeasures, Paragon, and maybe another cheap card. I also had a Neb B Support Refit that had the Intel officer (I think?) card and Salvation, a Corvette A with Jaina's light and a Corvette B with Dodonna's Pride and Electronic Countermeasures.
Opponent ran a Vic 1 with Screed on board and a couple of upgrades (Chirpy being one of them, which was made useless by me not having squadrons) as well as the Dominator title, and a Glad 1 with gunnery team, Demolisher, and some other upgrade. Squadrons were all named imperial pilots with one regular interceptor squadron.
Objective was advanced gunnery and he was second player. He ended up avoiding the guppy the entire game (I only ever got one shot off from it) and it was my only ship surviving because of that. Despite losing my other 3 ships I won on points because I took down his Vic which was his objective ship as well as the regular interceptor squadron.
So far my experience has indicated the following...
Rebels can operate fine without fighters, especially when you go with one of two builds:
Interestingly, the best counter to a lot of rebel bomber-heavy builds is... the rebel CR90 build?
Imperials, on the other hand, really cannot operate effectively without fighters for two reasons:
Given that there are very good rebel bomber-heavy lists (which to me are the strongest all-comers lists for the rebels right now other than CR90 spam), I suspect it would be suicide, on average, for Imperial lists not to have at least a token fighter screen.
5 VSDs? That's a lot of points. Not talking 300 points any longer?
From earlier in this thread (post 16)
5 Vic1 @ 400 points anybody? ^^
No need for Fighter coverage.
Just move them in Fortress Formation
5 VSDs? That's a lot of points. Not talking 300 points any longer?
From earlier in this thread (post 16)
5 Vic1 @ 400 points anybody? ^^
No need for Fighter coverage.
Just move them in Fortress Formation
Ah, Ok. My eyes are failing. Old age and all that.
I've played against myself several times now, using a fighter-heavy rebel build (2 AF2b + 4 X-wing and 4 - A - wings) vs. a VSD II + GSD I + GSD II + 3 Basic TIE.
First playthrough:
Rebel opted to go first. Picked Advanced Gunnery. Foolishly believing his AF2 w/EA would be a good match against the VSD.
Anyway. Stupid movement of A-wings caused TIEs to tie them up - and H)/Warlord to kill 3 of 4 over the course of the game. But the X-wings caused an ENORMOUS amount of damage to the Empire ships. Win Rebels with a decent margin (7-3 or something like that).
Second playthrough:
Rebel went second. Empire was more aggressive, but Rebel was much more careful with his fighters. TIEs got wiped out and H9/Warlord did little damage. One AF got nailed early and the second one was down to its last hull point, but by the end of round 6 all Imperial ships had been killed. 9-1 to rebels.
Third playthrough:
Rebel went second. Minefields. Imperial very aggressive. Not caring about mines. Rebel miscalculated movement, got boxed in and killed to the last man. Or rather, all their fighters survived, but they lost both AFs without any Imperial ships down.
3 TIEs for screening is not enough for my tastes.
I have been running two gladiators 1s and a victory 2 and I have been doing pretty well.
I've played the last three games against no squadron imperial builds and been whipped each time. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, I even have 4 tie bombers in there. Bloody game is really frustrating and dull when playing against no squadrons because you have to bring enough anti squadron of your own that if they do have some, you're ok, but then it's a waste of points against anyone without any squadrons!
I don't get this "waste of points" mantra
unless you're bringing tons of the worst anti-ship squadron (interceptors, pound for pound, and specialized anti-squadron characters such as howlie and mauler) squadrons are going to tear ships a new one if they're not contested. at the very very least, they're plentiful sources of extra-dice
I have yet to see a game where uncontested bombers havn't absolutely punched a destroyer's face in, and not just B-wings (which are easily responsible for carrying my 3 neb fleet). Rhymer bombers have routinely murdered my Haven, but even squadrons such as X-wings have blown victories to kingdom come and A-wings speed 5 black dice have been absolute murder even without bomber. In a local tournie last week, an imp vs imp game was decided by tie fighters gobbling a meager interceptor escort and then going piranha on the exposed GSDs.
Unless you specialize hard anti-squadron, Squadrons will have an impact regardless. Going by game design, having no squadrons doesn't make the enemy suddenly immune to even anti-squadron squadrons, they're just throwing away the most effective anti-squadron measures they have (which, given that ships can't engage, are other squadrons)
Basically, squadrons are like:
Newbie here, but very theorically, I think the only "viable" (even then, not that sure) way to run a no squadron list would be to spam ships with 2 anti-squadron armaments that are still able to dish out damage against other capital ships. Several GSDs actually 
But squadrons are so cool I'd find it a shame to go without them ^^
I'm missing some significant strategy then because I've been trounced by a 3vsd list, a vsd 3GSD list and had plenty of bombers. Tell me where I'm going wrong!
I've played against myself several times now, using a fighter-heavy rebel build (2 AF2b + 4 X-wing and 4 - A - wings) vs. a VSD II + GSD I + GSD II + 3 Basic TIE.
First playthrough:
Rebel opted to go first. Picked Advanced Gunnery. Foolishly believing his AF2 w/EA would be a good match against the VSD.
Anyway. Stupid movement of A-wings caused TIEs to tie them up - and H)/Warlord to kill 3 of 4 over the course of the game. But the X-wings caused an ENORMOUS amount of damage to the Empire ships. Win Rebels with a decent margin (7-3 or something like that).
Second playthrough:
Rebel went second. Empire was more aggressive, but Rebel was much more careful with his fighters. TIEs got wiped out and H9/Warlord did little damage. One AF got nailed early and the second one was down to its last hull point, but by the end of round 6 all Imperial ships had been killed. 9-1 to rebels.
Third playthrough:
Rebel went second. Minefields. Imperial very aggressive. Not caring about mines. Rebel miscalculated movement, got boxed in and killed to the last man. Or rather, all their fighters survived, but they lost both AFs without any Imperial ships down.
3 TIEs for screening is not enough for my tastes.
I'm with you there on the three TIE tip. Seems way too simple an act of tying up those three TIEs with only two A-wings, while my Bomber wing heads straight at the VSD.
I'm missing some significant strategy then because I've been trounced by a 3vsd list, a vsd 3GSD list and had plenty of bombers. Tell me where I'm going wrong!
You'll have to tell us a bit more - we haven't seen your game!
Are you getting the bombers and fighters into their faces ASAP (as in by turn 2)? Are you concentrating your ship/squadron firepower on one ship at a time to take it down quickly? Are you using your maneuverability/objective/deployment to force the enemy to come to you piecemeal instead of all together? Are you looking to preserve your ships just as much as you're looking to hurt your opponents'? Are you letting the bombers get overlapped so they can perpetually hit the front of a VSD, without needing squadron commands?
Against an all ship list, you'll need to execute every single one of these points correctly to have a solid chance at victory. Can you say you've done that?
I'm missing some significant strategy then because I've been trounced by a 3vsd list, a vsd 3GSD list and had plenty of bombers. Tell me where I'm going wrong!
You'll have to tell us a bit more - we haven't seen your game!
Are you getting the bombers and fighters into their faces ASAP (as in by turn 2)? Are you concentrating your ship/squadron firepower on one ship at a time to take it down quickly? Are you using your maneuverability/objective/deployment to force the enemy to come to you piecemeal instead of all together? Are you looking to preserve your ships just as much as you're looking to hurt your opponents'? Are you letting the bombers get overlapped so they can perpetually hit the front of a VSD, without needing squadron commands?
Against an all ship list, you'll need to execute every single one of these points correctly to have a solid chance at victory. Can you say you've done that?
Yes and no - I think this is big enough to start its own topic so I'll do that and add details there!
I don't get this talk about fighters being a fantastic source of anti capital attacks........7 TIE fighters gets you a gladiator, and 4 A-wings gets you a CR90. In both instances the capitals bring more actual attack dice and can make full use of those dice.
This isn't to say that fighters are a complete waste against capitals.....not at all, but capitals simply bring more dice and those dice are more potent against other capitals than an equal number of points in fighters.....that then require the support of squadron commands to even use those relatively weak dice effectively against anything more nimble than a victory.
For the record i like squadrons and have used fighters in every game i have played. However given the reported successes of zero squadron builds it doesn't seem fair to right them of as "pfft squadrons will eat them alive"
I won my last two local tournaments without a single squadron.
2 Vic IIs, Glad I
Motti, each Vic has a gunnery team, flagship had leading shots, and Glad has Demolisher, Wulff, and Engine Techs.
This is the build from the second tournament. Leading shots seemed wasteful.
I am considering running the Vics as Vic Is. That should give me enough points to throw AM on each ship.
Limited sample size and anecdotal evidence below.
So I've been going to a local league since the game launched (core set). It is once a week on a weekday, so we really only have enough time for one game per person unless we are fast. I, am not fast. Neither is my friend. He is the only one that has made it every week like I have, and some weeks it is just the two of us. I've played him every week since before Wave 1 hit the shelves. The point here is I have played between 15-20 games, and at least half of them, if not more, have been against the same player.
My friend can't justify taking squadrons. His logic is as follows: squadrons require squadron commands to really be worth their points. Squadron commands really take away from other things your ship could be doing. Therefore, you are better off spamming concentrate fire than including squadrons. I do not exactly agree with him.
In the games we have played where he didn't use squadrons, his 4 ship builds with no squadrons have forced me to change up my strategies a bit. He usually has more activations than I do, and some of the more squadron oriented upgrades I use end up being wasted. His 3 ship builds are not as bad as I try to run at least 3 ships with 40-60 pts of squadrons minimum. I tend to play Rebel, he goes back and forth.
I think the problem we both have is that we haven't cracked the most effective way to utilize squadrons yet. There was some great advice earlier in the thread, which I plan to utilize this week.
I'll end my rambling here.
Bottom line is that in my experience, no squadron lists that maximize ship activations can definitely be effective. However my sample size is limited and I still don't think of myself as an optimal player. I need to work on initial placement and more efficient utilization of the squadrons I bring.