I have a played few more games with the Phantom. In 1 game, enemy Kath + VI had initiative, making her quite deadly if she caught my Whisper in an uncloaked state. A situation came up where Kath and Whisper were lined up with a big rock in between. Kath could've banked right or left around a rock, so I dialed in 2 fwd, planning to decloak left or right.

Prior to the decloak rules change, this would have been a 100% easy situation for Whisper. All id have to do is wait for Kath to move, then decloak the direction that doesn't put me range 1 of Kath. With the nerf, however, I was forced to guess to decloak left or right around the rock, and hope to goodness I guessed correctly.

Point being, this is a huge change to the power of the Phantom. Being forced to guess like the rest of the pilots makes the ship feel more like an X Wing Miniatures ship than it used to, and I like it. Much more thrilling and rewarding when you DO guess correctly, rather than just auto outplaying every ship that moves before you.

Of course, Intel Agent helps, but not if your round starts at Range 3-4!

After I convinced my friends who loved the phantom to start playing it again post nerf they soon realized a lot of the 'nerf' was in their head. Didn't take them long to get back to demolishing me again with five dice primary fire. Some of the frustration for me had been dissipated because at least if they had wised up and made a good deceptive maneuver the decloak shows me a hint of that at the start of the round. Though I probably won't be able to do anything at that point if my plans are even a fraction off. So instead of one hugely disappointing activation they had two moderately disappointing activations to annoy me with. But other things about the change that have helped it still mark the Phantom as OP in my book.

I have a played few more games with the Phantom. In 1 game, enemy Kath + VI had initiative, making her quite deadly if she caught my Whisper in an uncloaked state. A situation came up where Kath and Whisper were lined up with a big rock in between. Kath could've banked right or left around a rock, so I dialed in 2 fwd, planning to decloak left or right.

Prior to the decloak rules change, this would have been a 100% easy situation for Whisper. All id have to do is wait for Kath to move, then decloak the direction that doesn't put me range 1 of Kath. With the nerf, however, I was forced to guess to decloak left or right around the rock, and hope to goodness I guessed correctly.

Point being, this is a huge change to the power of the Phantom. Being forced to guess like the rest of the pilots makes the ship feel more like an X Wing Miniatures ship than it used to, and I like it. Much more thrilling and rewarding when you DO guess correctly, rather than just auto outplaying every ship that moves before you.

Of course, Intel Agent helps, but not if your round starts at Range 3-4!

These situations are the exception, but in my experience they're not that common, or at least I avoid getting into them.

In your situation, did you consider staying in the roughly same spot? If the Firespray banks, then it exposes its flank. Decloak backwards, 1-turn. If you guessed incorrectly, you just continue running around the asteroids, perhaps even taking cloak action if he has you in arc.

I largely agree with the mindset of this thread. The Phantom nerf certainly changed how Phantoms fit into the game but did not scale down the overall potency. At least, in the hands of a skilled player. The phantom has to be 'relearned' by players who used it before. It's level of forgiveness before and now is a drastic change to how the ship approaches situations, and that is a large part of what practicing a list does in terms of benefit.

It's still a powerful, scary ship, and it's opportunities to engage and overall options are the same as before. What it lost in informed positioning it gained back in the form of reliability; it's decloak can no longer be controlled by the opponent responsively, allowing it to maintain it's action economy and fire lanes for recloaking.

Relearning a previously "known" ship amidst a competitive season is challenging and probably frustrating, certainly. However, that does not remove the Phantoms raw capabilities as a hard-to-hit high-damage powerhouse.

No. It's a nerf. Again, they aren't bad, but Fel is better now.

I have a played few more games with the Phantom. In 1 game, enemy Kath + VI had initiative, making her quite deadly if she caught my Whisper in an uncloaked state. A situation came up where Kath and Whisper were lined up with a big rock in between. Kath could've banked right or left around a rock, so I dialed in 2 fwd, planning to decloak left or right.

Prior to the decloak rules change, this would have been a 100% easy situation for Whisper. All id have to do is wait for Kath to move, then decloak the direction that doesn't put me range 1 of Kath. With the nerf, however, I was forced to guess to decloak left or right around the rock, and hope to goodness I guessed correctly.

Point being, this is a huge change to the power of the Phantom. Being forced to guess like the rest of the pilots makes the ship feel more like an X Wing Miniatures ship than it used to, and I like it. Much more thrilling and rewarding when you DO guess correctly, rather than just auto outplaying every ship that moves before you.

Of course, Intel Agent helps, but not if your round starts at Range 3-4!

These situations are the exception, but in my experience they're not that common, or at least I avoid getting into them.

In your situation, did you consider staying in the roughly same spot? If the Firespray banks, then it exposes its flank. Decloak backwards, 1-turn. If you guessed incorrectly, you just continue running around the asteroids, perhaps even taking cloak action if he has you in arc.

However, pre nerf, that guess work or even suboptimal decision making was not required at all. You could simply dial in a choice that covered both situations and get the best possible positioning rather than settling for a less optimal position or the risk of bad positioning. Less optimal being, maybe requiring you to barrel to to arc dodge (no Focus for offense), or being forced to target a different ship, or not have a shot, while still arc dodging Kath.

Whisper is now more like an Interceptor, where you are often forced to make the safest choices to avoid being blocked and killed, rather than the BEST choice of getting a Range 1 TL + F shot.

For that reason, it IS a nerf, and it really is noticeable. The ship is still good, I'm not saying otherwise, but in some regard, especially for positional ships, more guess work = a worse ship, and less guess work = a better ship.

I have a played few more games with the Phantom. In 1 game, enemy Kath + VI had initiative, making her quite deadly if she caught my Whisper in an uncloaked state. A situation came up where Kath and Whisper were lined up with a big rock in between. Kath could've banked right or left around a rock, so I dialed in 2 fwd, planning to decloak left or right.

Prior to the decloak rules change, this would have been a 100% easy situation for Whisper. All id have to do is wait for Kath to move, then decloak the direction that doesn't put me range 1 of Kath. With the nerf, however, I was forced to guess to decloak left or right around the rock, and hope to goodness I guessed correctly.

Point being, this is a huge change to the power of the Phantom. Being forced to guess like the rest of the pilots makes the ship feel more like an X Wing Miniatures ship than it used to, and I like it. Much more thrilling and rewarding when you DO guess correctly, rather than just auto outplaying every ship that moves before you.

Of course, Intel Agent helps, but not if your round starts at Range 3-4!

These situations are the exception, but in my experience they're not that common, or at least I avoid getting into them.

In your situation, did you consider staying in the roughly same spot? If the Firespray banks, then it exposes its flank. Decloak backwards, 1-turn. If you guessed incorrectly, you just continue running around the asteroids, perhaps even taking cloak action if he has you in arc.

That's the thing though, I could've taken a less risky move, such as you described, and left less open to guessing. (I DID make the correct choice, btw)

However, pre nerf, that guess work or even suboptimal decision making was not required at all. You could simply dial in a choice that covered both situations and get the best possible positioning rather than settling for a less optimal position or the risk of bad positioning. Less optimal being, maybe requiring you to barrel to to arc dodge (no Focus for offense), or being forced to target a different ship, or not have a shot, while still arc dodging Kath.

Whisper is now more like an Interceptor, where you are often forced to make the safest choices to avoid being blocked and killed, rather than the BEST choice of getting a Range 1 TL + F shot.

For that reason, it IS a nerf, and it really is noticeable. The ship is still good, I'm not saying otherwise, but in some regard, especially for positional ships, more guess work = a worse ship, and less guess work = a better ship.

Well I never played the Phantom that way, I always chose the safe way, preferring to peck away from a distance with 4 dice. Probably because since the beginning I've been playing against a lot of ships that shoot before me.

I have a played few more games with the Phantom. In 1 game, enemy Kath + VI had initiative, making her quite deadly if she caught my Whisper in an uncloaked state. A situation came up where Kath and Whisper were lined up with a big rock in between. Kath could've banked right or left around a rock, so I dialed in 2 fwd, planning to decloak left or right.

Prior to the decloak rules change, this would have been a 100% easy situation for Whisper. All id have to do is wait for Kath to move, then decloak the direction that doesn't put me range 1 of Kath. With the nerf, however, I was forced to guess to decloak left or right around the rock, and hope to goodness I guessed correctly.

Point being, this is a huge change to the power of the Phantom. Being forced to guess like the rest of the pilots makes the ship feel more like an X Wing Miniatures ship than it used to, and I like it. Much more thrilling and rewarding when you DO guess correctly, rather than just auto outplaying every ship that moves before you.

Of course, Intel Agent helps, but not if your round starts at Range 3-4!

These situations are the exception, but in my experience they're not that common, or at least I avoid getting into them.

In your situation, did you consider staying in the roughly same spot? If the Firespray banks, then it exposes its flank. Decloak backwards, 1-turn. If you guessed incorrectly, you just continue running around the asteroids, perhaps even taking cloak action if he has you in arc.

That's the thing though, I could've taken a less risky move, such as you described, and left less open to guessing. (I DID make the correct choice, btw)

However, pre nerf, that guess work or even suboptimal decision making was not required at all. You could simply dial in a choice that covered both situations and get the best possible positioning rather than settling for a less optimal position or the risk of bad positioning. Less optimal being, maybe requiring you to barrel to to arc dodge (no Focus for offense), or being forced to target a different ship, or not have a shot, while still arc dodging Kath.

Whisper is now more like an Interceptor, where you are often forced to make the safest choices to avoid being blocked and killed, rather than the BEST choice of getting a Range 1 TL + F shot.

For that reason, it IS a nerf, and it really is noticeable. The ship is still good, I'm not saying otherwise, but in some regard, especially for positional ships, more guess work = a worse ship, and less guess work = a better ship.

Well I never played the Phantom that way, I always chose the safe way, preferring to peck away from a distance with 4 dice. Probably because since the beginning I've been playing against a lot of ships that shoot before me.

I know you mean well, but this isn't a debate on best play styles for the Phantom, or who is a better player, but a discussion on whether the change to the decloak timing was actually a nerf. From what I can see:

1. There are situations where an incorrect guess could put Whisper in a situation that would've been 100% avoidable pre-nerf

2. Phantoms now 100% telegraph the rounds they plan to not decloak, letting the opponent know they don't have to worry about Whisper's attack. This could let the opponent choose to, say, set up a TL instead of evading.

3. Lower PS positional ships now can boost or barrel roll in response to Whisper's decloak direction. Either setting up shots or blocks. I'm think of Psycho Tycho here who can Daredevil and boost to change direction in response to the decloak.

The change has perks, though, such as being able to block ANYTHING with a decloak, which is great. And also, Intel Agent helps negate the bad sides.

The Phantom still feels just as powerful most games. But sometimes it is harder and more risky. Therefore, it IS a nerf, and it can be noticeable.

I have a played few more games with the Phantom. In 1 game, enemy Kath + VI had initiative, making her quite deadly if she caught my Whisper in an uncloaked state. A situation came up where Kath and Whisper were lined up with a big rock in between. Kath could've banked right or left around a rock, so I dialed in 2 fwd, planning to decloak left or right.

Prior to the decloak rules change, this would have been a 100% easy situation for Whisper. All id have to do is wait for Kath to move, then decloak the direction that doesn't put me range 1 of Kath. With the nerf, however, I was forced to guess to decloak left or right around the rock, and hope to goodness I guessed correctly.

Point being, this is a huge change to the power of the Phantom. Being forced to guess like the rest of the pilots makes the ship feel more like an X Wing Miniatures ship than it used to, and I like it. Much more thrilling and rewarding when you DO guess correctly, rather than just auto outplaying every ship that moves before you.

Of course, Intel Agent helps, but not if your round starts at Range 3-4!

These situations are the exception, but in my experience they're not that common, or at least I avoid getting into them.

In your situation, did you consider staying in the roughly same spot? If the Firespray banks, then it exposes its flank. Decloak backwards, 1-turn. If you guessed incorrectly, you just continue running around the asteroids, perhaps even taking cloak action if he has you in arc.

That's the thing though, I could've taken a less risky move, such as you described, and left less open to guessing. (I DID make the correct choice, btw)

However, pre nerf, that guess work or even suboptimal decision making was not required at all. You could simply dial in a choice that covered both situations and get the best possible positioning rather than settling for a less optimal position or the risk of bad positioning. Less optimal being, maybe requiring you to barrel to to arc dodge (no Focus for offense), or being forced to target a different ship, or not have a shot, while still arc dodging Kath.

Whisper is now more like an Interceptor, where you are often forced to make the safest choices to avoid being blocked and killed, rather than the BEST choice of getting a Range 1 TL + F shot.

For that reason, it IS a nerf, and it really is noticeable. The ship is still good, I'm not saying otherwise, but in some regard, especially for positional ships, more guess work = a worse ship, and less guess work = a better ship.

Well I never played the Phantom that way, I always chose the safe way, preferring to peck away from a distance with 4 dice. Probably because since the beginning I've been playing against a lot of ships that shoot before me.

I know you mean well, but this isn't a debate on best play styles for the Phantom, or who is a better player, but a discussion on whether the change to the decloak timing was actually a nerf. From what I can see:

1. There are situations where an incorrect guess could put Whisper in a situation that would've been 100% avoidable pre-nerf

2. Phantoms now 100% telegraph the rounds they plan to not decloak, letting the opponent know they don't have to worry about Whisper's attack. This could let the opponent choose to, say, set up a TL instead of evading.

3. Lower PS positional ships now can boost or barrel roll in response to Whisper's decloak direction. Either setting up shots or blocks. I'm think of Psycho Tycho here who can Daredevil and boost to change direction in response to the decloak.

The change has perks, though, such as being able to block ANYTHING with a decloak, which is great. And also, Intel Agent helps negate the bad sides.

The Phantom still feels just as powerful most games. But sometimes it is harder and more risky. Therefore, it IS a nerf, and it can be noticeable.

Actually I started this by pointing out that the fear of Phantoms is gone. We've already had the thread discussing whether it is a nerf or not. For me personally, the bad I don't mind and the good is rather cool to have. I don't mind decloaking first, since I found few scenarios where I could decloak either way (with good positioning, not a "damage control" decloak), I would mostly decloak in a position that the opponent didn't often expect if they weren't accustomed to playing with me. For those few scenarios where it mattered and I had no other alternative, yes I would have to pick blindly, but this feels very natural within the rules of the game.

But going back to the fear, I found not to be bothered by the rules change, but I found interesting to mention the change in my opponents' attitude. That's all. And it's good.

I view it not as a nerf but as a retooling

Before the 2 phantom build was just plain frustrating and tedious to play against. It also brought a lot of the "power" gamers out.

Now the phantom is back on par. The phantom player still has a brutal beat stick to use, but now must use tactics that are proactive instead of the normal reactive that was used pre retooling

No. It's a nerf. Again, they aren't bad, but Fel is better now.

As Fel should be and Vader in his buffed Advanced will be. I think it is good if someone fields a PS9 pilot his/her opponent goes; 'O dear.'

I like the Phantom a lot, but it felt to easy for me, with the new rule it is again a fun ship to fly.

The real powercreep in this game is the shift towards 4 dice or more- attackts.

No. It's a nerf. Again, they aren't bad, but Fel is better now.

As Fel should be and Vader in his buffed Advanced will be. I think it is good if someone fields a PS9 pilot his/her opponent goes; 'O dear.'

I like the Phantom a lot, but it felt to easy for me, with the new rule it is again a fun ship to fly.

The real powercreep in this game is the shift towards 4 dice or more- attackts.

4+ dice attack ships have been a large part of the meta for a year. Phantoms were part of that.

I have a played few more games with the Phantom. In 1 game, enemy Kath + VI had initiative, making her quite deadly if she caught my Whisper in an uncloaked state. A situation came up where Kath and Whisper were lined up with a big rock in between. Kath could've banked right or left around a rock, so I dialed in 2 fwd, planning to decloak left or right.

Prior to the decloak rules change, this would have been a 100% easy situation for Whisper. All id have to do is wait for Kath to move, then decloak the direction that doesn't put me range 1 of Kath. With the nerf, however, I was forced to guess to decloak left or right around the rock, and hope to goodness I guessed correctly.

Point being, this is a huge change to the power of the Phantom. Being forced to guess like the rest of the pilots makes the ship feel more like an X Wing Miniatures ship than it used to, and I like it. Much more thrilling and rewarding when you DO guess correctly, rather than just auto outplaying every ship that moves before you.

Of course, Intel Agent helps, but not if your round starts at Range 3-4!

These situations are the exception, but in my experience they're not that common, or at least I avoid getting into them.

In your situation, did you consider staying in the roughly same spot? If the Firespray banks, then it exposes its flank. Decloak backwards, 1-turn. If you guessed incorrectly, you just continue running around the asteroids, perhaps even taking cloak action if he has you in arc.

That's the thing though, I could've taken a less risky move, such as you described, and left less open to guessing. (I DID make the correct choice, btw)

However, pre nerf, that guess work or even suboptimal decision making was not required at all. You could simply dial in a choice that covered both situations and get the best possible positioning rather than settling for a less optimal position or the risk of bad positioning. Less optimal being, maybe requiring you to barrel to to arc dodge (no Focus for offense), or being forced to target a different ship, or not have a shot, while still arc dodging Kath.

Whisper is now more like an Interceptor, where you are often forced to make the safest choices to avoid being blocked and killed, rather than the BEST choice of getting a Range 1 TL + F shot.

For that reason, it IS a nerf, and it really is noticeable. The ship is still good, I'm not saying otherwise, but in some regard, especially for positional ships, more guess work = a worse ship, and less guess work = a better ship.

Well I never played the Phantom that way, I always chose the safe way, preferring to peck away from a distance with 4 dice. Probably because since the beginning I've been playing against a lot of ships that shoot before me.

I know you mean well, but this isn't a debate on best play styles for the Phantom, or who is a better player, but a discussion on whether the change to the decloak timing was actually a nerf. From what I can see:

1. There are situations where an incorrect guess could put Whisper in a situation that would've been 100% avoidable pre-nerf

2. Phantoms now 100% telegraph the rounds they plan to not decloak, letting the opponent know they don't have to worry about Whisper's attack. This could let the opponent choose to, say, set up a TL instead of evading.

3. Lower PS positional ships now can boost or barrel roll in response to Whisper's decloak direction. Either setting up shots or blocks. I'm think of Psycho Tycho here who can Daredevil and boost to change direction in response to the decloak.

The change has perks, though, such as being able to block ANYTHING with a decloak, which is great. And also, Intel Agent helps negate the bad sides.

The Phantom still feels just as powerful most games. But sometimes it is harder and more risky. Therefore, it IS a nerf, and it can be noticeable.

Actually I started this by pointing out that the fear of Phantoms is gone. We've already had the thread discussing whether it is a nerf or not. For me personally, the bad I don't mind and the good is rather cool to have. I don't mind decloaking first, since I found few scenarios where I could decloak either way (with good positioning, not a "damage control" decloak), I would mostly decloak in a position that the opponent didn't often expect if they weren't accustomed to playing with me. For those few scenarios where it mattered and I had no other alternative, yes I would have to pick blindly, but this feels very natural within the rules of the game.

But going back to the fear, I found not to be bothered by the rules change, but I found interesting to mention the change in my opponents' attitude. That's all. And it's good.

I think we are saying the same thing, using slightly different language, and slightly different uses for the word "nerf". I think what you mean by nerf is the apparent drop in Phantom players due to the ruling change, and how the large drop is more due to fear factor rather than the impact on the ship's performance.

I'm just trying to clarify that it IS an actually game play change, and sometimes it could mean a loss that pre-ruling change could have been 100% avoidable. Will it come up often with good play, probably not, but it will happen, and it could have been 100% avoidable before. Players should be more confident playing against it because they might actually be able to guess the ship's final position with low PS ships. Confidence doesn't mean they'll win more, of course, but it gives hope where previously many players would feel defeated the second they saw their matchup.

Now my opinion on the change, I like it, a lot. The ship feels more like an X Wing Miniatures ship and not something "better" than an X Wing Miniatures ship vs all lower than PS 9 ships.

In comparison to the nerf to PWTs that Autothrusters are supposed to be, the Phantom nerf is a wrecking ball to the nads. What's psychological is cognitive dissonance associated with people screaming for balance without wanting anything to be done about turrets.

After I convinced my friends who loved the phantom to start playing it again post nerf they soon realized a lot of the 'nerf' was in their head. Didn't take them long to get back to demolishing me again with five dice primary fire. Some of the frustration for me had been dissipated because at least if they had wised up and made a good deceptive maneuver the decloak shows me a hint of that at the start of the round. Though I probably won't be able to do anything at that point if my plans are even a fraction off. So instead of one hugely disappointing activation they had two moderately disappointing activations to annoy me with. But other things about the change that have helped it still mark the Phantom as OP in my book.

Honestly, I feel like the decloak signals your move too much most of the time. Since if you do the opposite weird move, you're likely losing valuable range you want.

Also the PS war is still a thing. VI EU Chirpy Soontir.

Really, I think it was a huge nerf.

In comparison to the nerf to PWTs that Autothrusters are supposed to be, the Phantom nerf is a wrecking ball to the nads. What's psychological is cognitive dissonance associated with people screaming for balance without wanting anything to be done about turrets.

I played strictly imperial only before scum came out and I never once asked for a nerf on PWTs but I DID say many times the phantoms needed a nerf. They were overpowered. PWTs are balanced for their points. The thing that frustrates people is they are so forgiving it is very hard to capitalize on player mistakes the way you can against other ships.

And also for the record I did play phantoms some. I quit because they were stupid easy. I won a number of games I should have lost because i could just blink away when they outflew me. That took a lot of fun out of the game and it's equally frustrating for the players who get stomped by phantoms. I love the phantom nerf and have played them some more recently since they actually require some thought to use and my opponents don't look like whipped dogs when they lose because they know they had a chance

I bet Han + 2 x Z95 could totally win pretty consistently, even enough to win a tournament! Sometimes those Z95s fail to even carry dead weight.

These situations are the exception, but in my experience they're not that common, or at least I avoid getting into them.

In your situation, did you consider staying in the roughly same spot? If the Firespray banks, then it exposes its flank. Decloak backwards, 1-turn. If you guessed incorrectly, you just continue running around the asteroids, perhaps even taking cloak action if he has you in arc.

Sorry, but how do you decloak backwards? It was my understanding that the decloak allows you to boost or barrel roll with the 2-straight template...

These situations are the exception, but in my experience they're not that common, or at least I avoid getting into them.

In your situation, did you consider staying in the roughly same spot? If the Firespray banks, then it exposes its flank. Decloak backwards, 1-turn. If you guessed incorrectly, you just continue running around the asteroids, perhaps even taking cloak action if he has you in arc.

Sorry, but how do you decloak backwards? It was my understanding that the decloak allows you to boost or barrel roll with the 2-straight template...

I meant decloak left or right most backward possible, meaning half a base behind, then 1-turn in the other direction. You end up in almost the same position(*), but orientated to the right/left

(*) almost means shifted 1.5 bases, check http://randolphw.github.io/echolocation/

Noob questions...

1. What does Post nerf mean?

2. What does zero-**** giving pwt mean?

Thanks in advance...new to the game but I absolutely LOVE it!