The phantom? Doesn't anyone lament that it's been nerfed into meta-oblivion? Note I did not say it was needed to oblivion. Just meta-oblivion.

This whole PS9 late as possible movement change is really getting kind of dumb. This is what makes all the recent lists since wave 4 good. Imagine you had to someone declare boosts and rolls before you knew everything else on the table.

... I imagine it'd be like flying ps1 defenders. So much more guess work.

Seriously. No one has talked about using a phantom in the meta. Mostly cuz it's now too easy to pin down in comparison to the post movement high ps options out there.

See honestly the phantom should be great against IGs. But i think it will still be too easy to predict. And too many turrets for a ship with no auto thrusters. Yuck.

Where are my phantoms.

I'd argue they are still very powerful, if nothing else then because of their 4 attack dice and 4 evade dice. Plus intel agent is a very popular crew card now, which almost negates the nerf in a way.

There are 2 likely answers to your question:

1. Everyone heard that they got nerfed and at the so people just stopped playing them.

1. Those who have the time to play more than 1-2 games a week tested the Phantom out with the new rules and found that it was far less consistent at actually getting shots due to decloaking at PS0, which in turn meant it was more likely to be shot at with only 2 defense dice as ACD did not get a chance to trigger. At least with the previous rules you could decloak to a somewhat average position but as long as you got a shot you could trigger ACD (and in whispers case get a free focus as well)

I'm inclined to say that currently it's a mixture of both 1 & 2 (and over time leaning towards 2) but also a good chunk of the phantom players have rediscovered their love of Soontir Fel.

Having flown whisper (VI + ACD + RC + gunner) and single-handedly wiped entire lists I wholeheartedly agree that the Phantoms needed to be toned down, the question that seems to be coming through in tournament play is was the decloak adjustment too much or are players just too lazy to try and make it work?

I played double IG against Whisper a few times.

Most of times i parked one IG in front of it and made it bump, while the other got a shot.

No seriously the early decloak movement makes it much much more predictable. I played it on tournaments when it was still easy mode, and i could basically do whatever i want and dodge most arcs at will.

Now i played it in a friendly game against a Firespray and could not dodge its arcs despite my best efforts. It makes a huge difference, but it was still a much deserved nerf really!

Most of the things it can do, Soontir can now do better

They weren't nerfed so much as the skill requirement to use them shot up.

The criteria for a meta-ship are consistency, perceived power advantage and ease of use. The phantom lost the third.

Four Sigmas is no pushover - and very powerful when flown correctly!

I imagine that good players see that; basing their entire strategy around 4-5 green dice, just to get that extra attack dice - is not consistent enough anymore when the Phantoms are unable to arc-dodge and take an offensive oriented action.

Here in Barcelona, some players are playing it again! I'm one of them, Chirpy (VI+EU+Gunner+Ysanne) with whisper (intelligence agent, FCS, ACD, VI) and I didn't lose a game yet!!!

I think phantom in this new meta (dual ig, predator Han, soontithruster) has a place in the top lists.

PS: I use VI on Chirpy to prevent the phantom has the stress from Rebel captive.

First first: congrats on you for amazing list choice and use of VI! Great idea! Also gives you room for whisper with he added points from not using expose and EI.

Second: I've heard stuff about 4 sigmas. I don't believe in it one ****. I've NEVER seen this list even pop up in a tournament run down. And again, nerfed hard enough we don't see them at tournaments. Not nerfed into oblivion of bombers with missiles status.

How would you say that the phantom is overcosted? Not worth the point for such an easy to kill ship?

Here in Barcelona, some players are playing it again! I'm one of them, Chirpy (VI+EU+Gunner+Ysanne) with whisper (intelligence agent, FCS, ACD, VI) and I didn't lose a game yet!!!

I think phantom in this new meta (dual ig, predator Han, soontithruster) has a place in the top lists.

PS: I use VI on Chirpy to prevent the phantom has the stress from Rebel captive.

I placed top 4 in the Reddit Cup with a similar list. If you fly it well, it will do good. I didn't lose a single ship until the last round, where I lost Whisper to 2 B-wings while cloaked (blanked out on 8/9 dice). Your Chirpy seems to be better off, but I prefer the initiative. I had Rebel Captive and Ysanne, which put me at 98pts. I would rather drop Ysanne, than not have initiative, with all the Soontir lists flying around.

Are you guys willing to share your lists? I can't make heads or tails out of it yet. Talk strategy, we will listen.

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (46)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Rebel Captive (3)
Ysanne Isard (4)
Engine Upgrade (4)

"Whisper" (32)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Intelligence Agent (1)
Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

This is an anti-Phantom-Decimator Phantom-Decimator build. In that sense I guess it's a bit outdated, since I haven't flown against a Phantom in forever. PS10 RAC shoots at enemy Phantom, takes the stress from their Rebel Captive. Then Whisper shoots at their phantom, without taking any stress. 2 points of initiative well spent. Rebel Captive could be put on either one, but I'd rather discourage people from shooting the Decimator too much, or at least incovenience them if they do. It's also quite good 1v1 if it ever gets there. Intelligence Agent on the Phantom is purely for fighting Soontir, if you're really close to him. If you manage to block him with Whisper he could die to Chiraneau quite fast.

How do I fly this? Depending on opponent list of course, but rather slow, taking my time to see what the opponent is doing. I commit to a path with the Decimator after my opponent, in a way that suits me. The Phantom usually comes afterwards and shoot from far away. I almost always evade with the Phantom. This makes my list quite low on damage, on the first turn, depending on dice. Chiraneau also lacks gunner and predator, so he's mostly toothless. His job in any case is to keep ships occupied while Whisper does her job from far away. If they're focusing on Whisper I can disengage because Chiraneau is probably getting into a good position to fire.

What would I change? The Decimator goes down slowly, and people don't focus it too much, not the way I fly it anyway. So I would drop some defensive capabilities for added offense. Currently I'm thinking of switching Ysanne to Gunner. I could also switch Rebel Captive for Gunner and drop Intelligence Agent. Intelligence Agent has given me good options to go on in the past, but it's not crucial. Another option would be to drop VI and IA and get Predator instead, still leaving me at 99 points. I would never go to 100.

I think people are just tired of playing it for months before the nerf. Even without the nerf we would probably have seen some phantom players migrating to Fel and IGs just to mix things up.

I flew 2 Sigmas (Sensor Jammer, IA, Stygian) and Carnor a few weeks back and went 3-1. That isn't bad since I have flown Phantoms exactly once before about six months earlier. The one loss I had was due to an embarrasing mistake I made in deciding to block a ship that I had no reason to block.

Its a good list, although I am not 100% sold on Carnor being needed in the list, I sometimes feel a predictable tank would make the list more effective.

Phantoms can't be played as arc dodgers any more than a PS8 or 9 TIE fighter is an arc dodger.

They ARE still deadly at 4 attack and 4 agility, but they're extremely easy to block by something at lower PS with boost or barrel roll which can prevent them from getting arc and/or shooting at all, then getting blown apart with its Z-95 equivalent defenses due to ACD not triggering.

Fel seems to be better in every way besides attack value at the moment.

Not sure what you're talking about. Whisper isn't as common as Fel, but she's still very much part of the top meta. Chiraneau/Whisper has 3-4 top notch builds. Fel/Whisper/doom and Fel/Whisper/named TIE are both lists you need to have a plan against.

Fel/Whisper/doom and Fel/Whisper/named TIE are both lists you need to have a plan against.

Also called step 5, during the Squad Deployment Procedure.

^{I submit that part of the phantom scarcity are these forums. Many of us don't get to play as often as we would like, while there are some that are really plugged into the competitive scene. so I think a lot of players come here and read things like "the phantom got nerfed, it's no good anymore, etc, etc." So they stop playing it. I think this forum has a pretty substantial impact on people's perceptions about certain ships or lists, and the effect is people do less experimenting on their own. This group think has the unintentional side effect of stagnating the current game somewhat. Now, I don't think this is true for every player or every situation, but I do think there is an impact.}

^{Good example: a list with 4 bwings would not have been thought to be very competitive when Bwings arrived on the scene, now 4 bwing lists are all the rage BBBBZ. I think the main reason is these forums. I think if we experimented more and took the options of others with a more critical stance, other great lists might rise to the top. I almost think this game would be better without forums. (though where would I spend all my time then?)}

So, lemme get this right.

A frequent argument on these forums that often shows up sounds something like "it's too easy to play this game without any effort in flying - just pick a turret ship or a Phantom and do whatever you want each turn without really having to plan in advance." - or something like that.

So a change was made ages ago that requires a more serious effort to use, and actually thinking a turn or two ahead. So.. kind of a "learn to fly!" kind of thing.

Wow. Some folks just love the sound of their own complaining.

^{I submit that part of the phantom scarcity are these forums. Many of us don't get to play as often as we would like, while there are some that are really plugged into the competitive scene. so I think a lot of players come here and read things like "the phantom got nerfed, it's no good anymore, etc, etc." So they stop playing it. I think this forum has a pretty substantial impact on people's perceptions about certain ships or lists, and the effect is people do less experimenting on their own. This group think has the unintentional side effect of stagnating the current game somewhat. Now, I don't think this is true for every player or every situation, but I do think there is an impact.}

^{Good example: a list with 4 bwings would not have been thought to be very competitive when Bwings arrived on the scene, now 4 bwing lists are all the rage BBBBZ. I think the main reason is these forums. I think if we experimented more and took the options of others with a more critical stance, other great lists might rise to the top. I almost think this game would be better without forums. (though where would I spend all my time then?)}

This is it! You hit the nail on the head! I find myself doing this exact same thing. I'm on this forum everyday and I only get to play maybe once a week to 10 days or so. Much of my knowledge or perception of this games comes from reading about what is good or bad on here as opposed to actually trying it out for myself. This is a problem. According to these forums, a Syck interceptor is no good. But the last game I played I ran three with Heavy Laser Cannons and had a blast. I won and I only lost one of these "terrible" ships. I guess I would just add, try stuff for yourself and you might be pleasantly surprised.

You had a blast. With HLCs. I see what you did there.

^{Good example: a list with 4 bwings would not have been thought to be very competitive when Bwings arrived on the scene, now 4 bwing lists are all the rage BBBBZ. I think the main reason is these forums. I think if we experimented more and took the options of others with a more critical stance, other great lists might rise to the top. I almost think this game would be better without forums. (though where would I spend all my time then?)}

Umm, terrible example. BBBB was quite popular once Wave 3 released. It pretty much replaced XXXX squads. Generic B-wings were extremely popular when Wave 3 released. Wave 4 is what caused them to not see as much play.

the change in game mechanics account for the phantom seeing less play, pure and simple

the errata was designed to make them far more difficult to use effectively, since the decloak stresses predicting the opponent and planning ahead (just like every other ship) whereas before you were given free reign to change your mind on a whim. Simply put, they are no longer easy mode.

the phantom is still a scary little bastard (4 dice with mods is never not going to be), but it has lost its easy-mode appeal and has been supplanted by PWTs who have rarely given even the slightest **** about it. We get Soonts instead because while he's far harder to use effectively than even the post-errata phantom (one block --> ******, whereas Whisper still gets her target-lock, re-cloak, focus) he's always more reliable against mindless PWT fire than the poor, 40 point Z-95

as the meta hopefully continues diversifying and PWTs are seen less, phantoms will hopefully have a slightly more pronounced presence (but not too much, they've had their turn )