So, I'm just catching up. I'm running my first adventure (though I've had the books since the beginning), and have just implemented the squad rules. They seem pretty good to me, but I recall that board members -and even some developers- had problems with the squad and squadron rules as written in the GM Kit.

So, to you who have used them before, I ask you: what's good about them? What's bad? Any tips? I've already detected some strange wording, like "whether they attack you or the squad", which seems a bit strange. But I'd enjoy reading your thoughts, and getting the most out of these rules... because at their heart, they're a real time-saver!

Haven't used em yet, but will soon.

Things I've noticed or are aware of:

1) The number one issue was psychological. A lot of people saw the ability to pass a hit to a minion (removing said minion from play) as unheroic. I see it as a narrative Biggs/Porkins/Wedge being removed from play during the death star assault, but because it's a voluntary player choice others saw it as Luke using Biggs as a human shield.

2) It's not totally clear if the Leader and Squad count as a single entity for target selection or not. It seems so up front, but it never actually says so, and there's a few points that suggest otherwise.

3) Since the Squad and leader are engaged, Blast weapons are devastating. This also gets into 1 and 2, as you have a possible situation where the blast damage is sufficient to whip out the squad, so can the leader still pass his damage or not?

I generally like them, although I've experienced some wonky situations, like a squad leader being picked up out of his squad and thrown around with the force. Hard to justify the minions taking the wounds in those situations.

I have used them, and had them used, in many situations. No complaints.

The main reason I like them is that it gives my players more ownership. I love giving my players more control of the game world.

Additionally, the rules are simple enough that the players don't really have to learn anything in depth, but complex enough that the power-gamers are happy with their tactical choices.

Lastly, I like the survivability it gives to the PCs. I can throw big guns, even starship scale weaponry, at them with no issues. "Okay, you're hit for 50 damage. Would you like to take that yourself, or redirect it to an NPC squad member?"

I like the basic idea. I've adapted the concept in various ways for different purposes.

In particular, I think they work well when you have two large capital ships, like a Mon Cal Cruiser and a Star Destroy duking it out.

I essentially treat starfighter squadrons as their own "weapon bank", and allow them to use barrage rules, treating each individual fighter as one "gun". It simplifies the combat by tracking fewer minion groups, and helps stafighters contribute to capital ship combat in a more meaningful way.

Besides, I'm not going to write up a backstory for all 36 fighter pilots aboard a Mon Cal. There's enough minions there that I feel okay tossing them away as ablative plot armor.

3) Since the Squad and leader are engaged, Blast weapons are devastating. This also gets into 1 and 2, as you have a possible situation where the blast damage is sufficient to whip out the squad, so can the leader still pass his damage or not?

There is a formation to negate effects of Auto Fire and Blast.

It doesn't negate, just increases the required advantage.

Thank you for the informative responses, people!

I'm inclined to treat the squad(ron) as one entity, because of the increase in silhouette and the ability to have a squadmate take the hit. It seems funny to me to have an enemy say, "I don't shoot at the squad, I shoot at PC Hammer!" and then have a squad member get hit. But if I'm missing anything, I'm all ears.

Thank you for the informative responses, people!

I'm inclined to treat the squad(ron) as one entity, because of the increase in silhouette and the ability to have a squadmate take the hit. It seems funny to me to have an enemy say, "I don't shoot at the squad, I shoot at PC Hammer!" and then have a squad member get hit. But if I'm missing anything, I'm all ears.

Well, it's basically giving PCs access to an ability similar to "Imperial Valor", for enemies like Imperial Moffs. When Nemeses use that ability, it's basically skinned as, "You shoot at the big important commander guy, but your shot goes wide and hits one of his bodyguards instead."

Thank you for the informative responses, people!

I'm inclined to treat the squad(ron) as one entity, because of the increase in silhouette and the ability to have a squadmate take the hit. It seems funny to me to have an enemy say, "I don't shoot at the squad, I shoot at PC Hammer!" and then have a squad member get hit. But if I'm missing anything, I'm all ears.

Well, it's basically giving PCs access to an ability similar to "Imperial Valor", for enemies like Imperial Moffs. When Nemeses use that ability, it's basically skinned as, "You shoot at the big important commander guy, but your shot goes wide and hits one of his bodyguards instead."

Does the bodyguard have to be Engaged with the commander? If so, then on that note, I'd say the squad(ron) needs to stay engaged with the PC. In which case, I'm still in favour of treating the squad + PC as one unit.

I didn't post this thread with my mind already made up, but it's helping me make my mind up.

Yeah, I haven't been the right position to use it just yet, (probably will Sunday) but as far as I can tell the system should work. It won't be a brilliant display of detailed combat, but it should come off nice, fast, and effective without adding a pile of book keeping and NPC roll offs tot he game.

I don't have the GM kit but I heard about the se rules (or at least the basic gist) on the Order 66 podcast and I really like the concept. I have even used the concept in some D&D games. To me it is very cinematic and combats a focus fire approach.

I don't have an issue with targeting a nemesis and hitting one his minion squad. Either you missed the nemesis and hit the minion or the minion got in the way of the shot. In cinematic scenes the minions rarely out live their bosses.

Thank you for the informative responses, people!

I'm inclined to treat the squad(ron) as one entity, because of the increase in silhouette and the ability to have a squadmate take the hit. It seems funny to me to have an enemy say, "I don't shoot at the squad, I shoot at PC Hammer!" and then have a squad member get hit. But if I'm missing anything, I'm all ears.

I'd probably allow a player to shoot the leader and have them unable to redistribute Wounds if they used the Aim maneuver to shoot them specifically (With the two Setback dice added, not the Boost)

That's an interesting solution....

I'd probably allow a player to shoot the leader and have them unable to redistribute Wounds if they used the Aim maneuver to shoot them specifically (With the two Setback dice added, not the Boost)

Not a bad idea, but I'd make sure none of your players have the Gunslinger talent "Call 'Em." Otherwise it renders moot the main point of Squads.

Possibly a stupid question, but I've yet to use these rules at the table.

I understand the benefit of diverting hits. As far as attacking though, does the squadron use the (PC) Leader's skill, or (in the case of a minion group of starfighters) the groups skill? I can see a case for a PC flying lone wolf, in which case he would get his attack, AND the allied minion groups attack, but no squadron protection benefit, OR leading the squadron in which case he'd only get his attack, but the benefit of NPC protection.

Which way does it work?

Possibly a stupid question, but I've yet to use these rules at the table.

I understand the benefit of diverting hits. As far as attacking though, does the squadron use the (PC) Leader's skill, or (in the case of a minion group of starfighters) the groups skill? I can see a case for a PC flying lone wolf, in which case he would get his attack, AND the allied minion groups attack, but no squadron protection benefit, OR leading the squadron in which case he'd only get his attack, but the benefit of NPC protection.

Which way does it work?

Diverting attacks is the big obvious.The Leader can also order the squad/ron to take up different formations and actions to provide specific benefits. Some are small (+1 boost on vigilance check, increase the cost of activating blast/autofire by 1) some can be pretty astonishing (Have a minion make a Computers, Mechanics, Medicine, survival, Skulduggery, any Knowlege, skill check using the squad leaders Leadership instead of the minion's skill/ability).

For things like attacks, the leader makes the attack using his normal pools, plus any benefits the squad/ron formation may provide. The leader may sped 1 Triumph to allow the attached minion squad/ron to make it's own separate attack in addition to the attack he made. So if you've got some weapon skill ranks and the leadership to keep the squad formationing, it's actually reasonably beneficial to squad up, as you can potentially kick out an additional attack per turn.

On the downside of things, a Squad/ron counts as 1 Sil larger then usual, so when vehicles show up on the scene a Squad/ron can be a lot easier to hit. So you probably don't want to get strafed by a TIE, or charge you squadron headlong into that unit of Ace gunboats. Also on the ground Squads are always considered within engaged range of everyone else in the squad, so blast weapons can be devastating.

That's a bit clearer, cheers.

That also reminds me - on the spending advantages etc table, are the two triumph options supposed to be one triumph each and you choose which one to use, or should the second option be two triumphs mirroring the two despair option?

That's a bit clearer, cheers.

That also reminds me - on the spending advantages etc table, are the two triumph options supposed to be one triumph each and you choose which one to use, or should the second option be two triumphs mirroring the two despair option?

Good question.

I've been assuming it's supposed to be 1 and 1 since the two are kinda different and the second one is so long and detailed putting them together would be a mess.

I agree they're different results, but I think the second one is a typo and should be 2 triumphs to match the corresponding 2x despair result. The second option is much more powerful allowing all minions in the squad(ron) to have a separate attack in addition to the leader. Which also incidentally answers my earlier question about which skill gets used!

I agree they're different results, but I think the second one is a typo and should be 2 triumphs to match the corresponding 2x despair result. The second option is much more powerful allowing all minions in the squad(ron) to have a separate attack in addition to the leader. Which also incidentally answers my earlier question about which skill gets used!

I see your angle, but it's a tough call. On the one hand it's a totally second attack, which is a big deal. On the other hand it's totally possible to bombo that second attack...

You wanna hit up the Q&A line or should I?

Please, be my guest!

And now we play the waiting game.....

Well, I wrote these rules. I can tell you there isn't a typo on the table, I believe that is as intended. Of course, I don't have final say on such matters. The Squad/Rons are intended to be primarily defensive rules to extend the longevity of BBEGs and PCs in highly lethal situations (like starship combat). To gain this defensive advantage, you sacrifice some of that offense. However, as pointed out, if you can reliably generate triumphs, you don't really notice this loss of offense.

... well I'll see if I get a ticket back, but I think that settles it for now.

Thanks Keith!