Were did all the imperial swarms go?

Predator

360 Turrets

3 and 4 attack dice ships

thats some pretty strong reasons not to play swarm lists for imperials.

will we ever see the imperial swarm again?

Swarms are really strong against turreted ships, and 3 attack ships have been part of the game since day 1, with the X wing. It was the phantom that decimated swarms - that and a generally growing pool of ships and viable lists, which has probably diluted them somewhat. But they're still around; certainly they show up on tables where I am every now and again.

Edit: Just checked, and a Howlrunner swarm made top eight at our local regionals, against rebel swarms, two ship turret builds and non typical builds. They're definitely still around.

Just won a small 12 players tournament with a 7 Tie swarm.

Howlrunner, PTL

Black, wingman

Black, DTF

4 academies

It was the first time I took them out in wave 6.They are viable in the curent meta, but there are a lot of other builds I wanted to try after playing the swarm almost excusively for a year (deciphantom, panick attack, brobots...). The list is vulnerable to fickle green dice (and can also benefit from the "green dices on fire" effect), which makes it a somewhat more random proposition than other lists in very long tournaments.

When lots of good players played the swarm, one was bound to get above average green dices, making a swarm win very likely, now that there are a lot of possible builds, that bell curve effect is neutered.

Texx playing a Howlrunner + 6 Obisidian swarm tied for 3rd/4th at the Mesa, AZ regionals a few hours ago.

SuperFel hurts swarms, Phantoms kill swarms, and four-attack ships in general kill swarms. There are a lot of those floating around, but then again, you can monster turrets. I think that swarms are viable, but the shark hasn't evolved into the Wave 6 meta

The MOV killed the swarm.

Yeah it's the scoring system that works against swarms the turret player kills three and then dodges till time runs out.

Also the time limit of 60 min is too short for a full swarm.

Unless your opponent plays into your hands, what top players usually don't.

scum Ys with blaster turret blew them all up....

Were did all the imperial swarms go?

Predator

360 Turrets

3 and 4 attack dice ships

thats some pretty strong reasons not to play swarm lists for imperials.

will we ever see the imperial swarm again?

You missed two big reasons:

Damage Mitigation has experienced power-creep, meaning enemies take less damage per attack.

Vs the Bloody Baron Fel-build, a TIE Swarm will need 90 attacks at Max Damage to kill him, on average.

MoV

If you've lost 12 points of ship more than your opponent, it is a full loss against you. That's a single Academy TIE, which are individually fragile (though have high numbers).

If MoV were increased by even 1 point, you'd see more swarms hit the table, despite the mitigation problem.

You play Swarm because it's very effective at killing people in a full-boardwipe match. It's terrible at timed-play, because it loses points in the early game, and re-gains them swiftly mid-to-late game, where the timer is against you.

In casual games without time limit, the full swarm still is the most feared list.

It takes far more time to plan and get the dials ready if you have 7-8 ships.

And it consumes time to actually do the moves and Barrel Rolles.

Time you are going to need to blast a fat ship when it goes to time.

scum Ys with blaster turret blew them all up....

I'll block your Y's and you can't fire it.

Damage Mitigation has experienced power-creep, meaning enemies take less damage per attack.

Vs the Bloody Baron Fel-build, a TIE Swarm will need 90 attacks at Max Damage to kill him, on average.

I'm still playing with my trusty Obsidian Squadron.

Last game I killed Soontir without sigificant losses. You just need to block his most obvious green speed 2 manouvers. I think Whisper is a bigger trouble by far.

Yep, Swarms are still effective, but time is not on their side in a competitive envronment.

Damage Mitigation has experienced power-creep, meaning enemies take less damage per attack.

Vs the Bloody Baron Fel-build, a TIE Swarm will need 90 attacks at Max Damage to kill him, on average.

I'm still playing with my trusty Obsidian Squadron.

Last game I killed Soontir without sigificant losses. You just need to block his most obvious green speed 2 manouvers. I think Whisper is a bigger trouble by far.

Whisper's the one that actually killed the Swarm; I've just done the math on Fel.

Of course, the Math on Fel has active autothrusters and actions, which you're disallowing, lol.

Damage Mitigation has experienced power-creep, meaning enemies take less damage per attack.

Vs the Bloody Baron Fel-build, a TIE Swarm will need 90 attacks at Max Damage to kill him, on average.

I'm still playing with my trusty Obsidian Squadron.

Last game I killed Soontir without sigificant losses. You just need to block his most obvious green speed 2 manouvers. I think Whisper is a bigger trouble by far.

Whisper's the one that actually killed the Swarm; I've just done the math on Fel.

Of course, the Math on Fel has active autothrusters and actions, which you're disallowing, lol.

Because of Whisper, I actually like taking VI on Howl.

Not a big deal, but it forces the Whisper player to don't park inside Howlrunners' arc.

A very soft counter, though.

Last game I had Determination on Howl - and the first crit I got was a pilot crit. I heared myself laughing loud out.

Alternatively, into Hershey's Imperial-Swarm-and-Cream

Did you know that the german name for Howlrunner, translated back to englisch, would be more like 'Screamwalker'?

I never liked it. There is a significant difference between screaming and howling.

...

But actually I wished for a EPT that would allow to move on a lower PS-level you desire, for 1 point.

Or even a reverse Swarm Tactics for moving phase. Also for 1 point.

...

Nevermind, thats off-topic

Yep, Swarms are still effective, but time is not on their side in a competitive envronment.

IG's are a pain though.

IG's are a serious pain for swarms. Very hard to catch or damage well flown IG's.

Also mov really hurts swarms. As has been mentioned.

MoV hurts it and the phantom definitely hurt it, but it's neither of these two alone. I'm not saying they can't still be effective, but I really don't think they are the easy answer to big ships anymore that people continue to claim.

Hypermobile turrets (especially Dash with the HLC but not exclusive to) can handle a swarm just fine before time is up or in untimed games -- I've seen it happen with equally skilled opponents (even a couple of times at World's last year on top tables) and been on both sides of those games (where the turret list beats the swarm) myself. I'm also willing to admit that when I was flying the turret side, i've beaten far better players than myself in that matchup.

There are three additional reasons I think they're not seen as much anymore as those that people mentioned. One is the addition of some good HLC platforms since post Wave 4 (YT 2400 and IG-88s). The other is the proliferation of crit abilities (manglers, RAC). The third reason is autothrusters. 2 attack swarms are essentially ineffective at R3 against ships running them (especially nasty against IG88s who are toting cannons and would rather be at R3).

Again, I think they can still be effective, but it isn't just one thing, and it certainly isn't all (or even mostly) because of a timed environment/MoV.

The MOV killed the swarm.

When 1/3 of players in the middle of the pack go 3-2 for the day, MoV decides who advances. This reason alone is why swarms disapppeared.

The amount of people running HLC lately also really hurts swarm lists

Nobody has mentioned it yet but how many people have 7-8 Ties if they didn't get into the game in wave 1-2? Personally if I got into the game now I would much rather buy 3-4 different ships (after a 2nd core set) instead of buying even a 3rd core set or 2-3 extra TIE Expansions

MoV changed, to favour two-ship builds. That is why they went.

Also, every new upgrade, every new ETP and bomb works AGAINST the swarm.

Because there is no room for upgrades. At least if you play canonic swarms like me.