I think when the game becomes 100% unwinnable when there are still ships on the board, then the game is broken. A z95 can still take a range 3 shot on a focused cloaked whisper and deal some damage (something in the 90% range in being unwinnable ). I can understand a Hwk without a turret against a Baron Fel take a horrible run in terms of gameplay. However, when a tiefighter range 1 have no chance at all of doing damage to a fat falcon -without even needing to know anything other than always choose to evade, and avoid the rocks- then there is a problem. I understand that you have to take down the fat falcon fast, or figure a way to deal with it endgame, but a change needs to happen.

Phantoms got nerfed without being near as bad in terms of being "unwinnable"

the best argument I heard for a need to change fat falcons is "what happens if at worlds it becomes fat han vs fat han?".

the game has had loads of unwinnable ships-on-the-table situations since the start. Fel against 2 rookies has always been as bad or worse than Han against 2 rookies. And pre-nerf Whisper really wasn't a guaranteed loss for any 2 rebel generics? Please. Unless Whisper flies off the board or forgets to cloak it is as certain as the sunrise.

The only thing unique about these heavy-mitigation turrets is their incredibly high cost. Unwinnable situations are here to stay and have been around since wave 2.

Yeah. I pretty consistently see complaints about the Falcon's damage mitigation, or the general PWT dislike, or any number of complaints, but it's not the only ship that's tough to beat 1v1. Truth is, it's not really 1v1 when you've got a decked out Chewie (55+ points) vs something another single ship (maybe 25-30 points?) Any time you take double the points in ship vs whatever you have, it's not a fair battle, and you shouldn't expect your opponent to slow down and make it easy for you to kill him. The whole point of this game is to win, and if your opponent beats you, it's up to you to find something to enjoy about the experience.

I feel a bit like the complaints people have aren't really put into good perspective. Our OP didn't share what he had when it was 3v1 or what he had when it was 1v1. I'm also tired of the 'it's boring' line. If it's boring, play something else. Quit trying to convince everyone else that playing against a turreted ship is boring, because it's not boring for some other people like myself.

Jacob

So quit having discussions about what we don't like about turrets because you enjoy playing at a mathematically proven disadvantage and don't like reading them...yeah you can go join Vayn in the pretentious time-out corner.

_{I am going to second the notion that turrets are not the issue. Decimator is not unbeatable. Dash also not unbeatable. you pay a premium in points for that turret. I don't think turrets should be removed from the game. I get a little tired of everyone constantly whining about them. how many threads have we had on this? Now, I would agree with those who say this build may be too good from a damage mitigation perspective, and I think tweaking 3po would help, as others have mentioned. I think anytime a build becomes so prevalent in the competitive scene like this one has (or like whisper did) that's a good indication that some tweaking is needed.}

_{I rarely play turrets, but I am glad they are part of the game and costed appropriately. I do think in the falcon setup there is a little too much damage mitigation, especially if boost / evade is used liberally.}

_{I disagree with those who say there is no skill involved in flying such a ship, but I would agree that it is easier than flying soontir.}

Not that soontir is particularly difficult to fly in my opinion.

Against a competent player that understands blocking...yes flying Soontir well becomes very difficult indeed.

I think when the game becomes 100% unwinnable when there are still ships on the board, then the game is broken. A z95 can still take a range 3 shot on a focused cloaked whisper and deal some damage (something in the 90% range in being unwinnable ). I can understand a Hwk without a turret against a Baron Fel take a horrible run in terms of gameplay. However, when a tiefighter range 1 have no chance at all of doing damage to a fat falcon -without even needing to know anything other than always choose to evade, and avoid the rocks- then there is a problem. I understand that you have to take down the fat falcon fast, or figure a way to deal with it endgame, but a change needs to happen.

Phantoms got nerfed without being near as bad in terms of being "unwinnable"

the best argument I heard for a need to change fat falcons is "what happens if at worlds it becomes fat han vs fat han?".

the game has had loads of unwinnable ships-on-the-table situations since the start. Fel against 2 rookies has always been as bad or worse than Han against 2 rookies. And pre-nerf Whisper really wasn't a guaranteed loss for any 2 rebel generics? Please. Unless Whisper flies off the board or forgets to cloak it is as certain as the sunrise.

The only thing unique about these heavy-mitigation turrets is their incredibly high cost. Unwinnable situations are here to stay and have been around since wave 2.

Yeah. I pretty consistently see complaints about the Falcon's damage mitigation, or the general PWT dislike, or any number of complaints, but it's not the only ship that's tough to beat 1v1. Truth is, it's not really 1v1 when you've got a decked out Chewie (55+ points) vs something another single ship (maybe 25-30 points?) Any time you take double the points in ship vs whatever you have, it's not a fair battle, and you shouldn't expect your opponent to slow down and make it easy for you to kill him. The whole point of this game is to win, and if your opponent beats you, it's up to you to find something to enjoy about the experience.

I feel a bit like the complaints people have aren't really put into good perspective. Our OP didn't share what he had when it was 3v1 or what he had when it was 1v1. I'm also tired of the 'it's boring' line. If it's boring, play something else. Quit trying to convince everyone else that playing against a turreted ship is boring, because it's not boring for some other people like myself.

Jacob

So quit having discussions about what we don't like about turrets because you enjoy playing at a mathematically proven disadvantage and don't like reading them...yeah you can go join Vayn in the pretentious time-out corner.

Do you honestly believe this?

Also, for about the thirtieth time it needs to be repeated that many of us defending turrets aren't taking them to competitive events. Not because we're on some "I don't need that to win." kind of power trip, but because we honestly believe we have a better shot at winning without them.

_{I am going to second the notion that turrets are not the issue. Decimator is not unbeatable. Dash also not unbeatable. you pay a premium in points for that turret. I don't think turrets should be removed from the game. I get a little tired of everyone constantly whining about them. how many threads have we had on this? Now, I would agree with those who say this build may be too good from a damage mitigation perspective, and I think tweaking 3po would help, as others have mentioned. I think anytime a build becomes so prevalent in the competitive scene like this one has (or like whisper did) that's a good indication that some tweaking is needed.}

_{I rarely play turrets, but I am glad they are part of the game and costed appropriately. I do think in the falcon setup there is a little too much damage mitigation, especially if boost / evade is used liberally.}

_{I disagree with those who say there is no skill involved in flying such a ship, but I would agree that it is easier than flying soontir.}

Not that soontir is particularly difficult to fly in my opinion.

Against a competent player that understands blocking...yes flying Soontir well becomes very difficult indeed.

No no. Fel is super-easy. He's the most common named pilot in regional-winning lists.

Funny, i hate fat falcons too. I don't mind Decimators by principle, though I'm sure if i had to play too many of them all the time I'd get sick of them too.

Decimators are quite lovely, in that even though they're damage sponges, they have almost no damage mitigation.

Give it time. A card is coming... sooner or later...

No no. Fel is super-easy. He's the most common named pilot in regional-winning lists.

Coupled with a PWT...you have to pick between focusing soontir and letting a 16 health, arc dodging ship run amuck, or kill the PWT and leave soontir vs the remains of your army. Either ship does well in those situations.

Because something wins does not make it easy, however something easy to fly is easier to win with (less mental fatigue etc.)

Funny, i hate fat falcons too. I don't mind Decimators by principle, though I'm sure if i had to play too many of them all the time I'd get sick of them too.

Decimators are quite lovely, in that even though they're damage sponges, they have almost no damage mitigation.

Give it time. A card is coming... sooner or later...

I suppose ysanne did get thrown out with the rest of the EU's continuity...

Funny, i hate fat falcons too. I don't mind Decimators by principle, though I'm sure if i had to play too many of them all the time I'd get sick of them too.

Decimators are quite lovely, in that even though they're damage sponges, they have almost no damage mitigation.

Give it time. A card is coming... sooner or later...

I don't think there's as much design space with the Empire to allow for something like R2D2. Imagine R2D2 paired with Vader crew. I'm sure there's some room for damage mitigation but I think it would have to be much more conservative.

No no. Fel is super-easy. He's the most common named pilot in regional-winning lists.

Coupled with a PWT...you have to pick between focusing soontir and letting a 16 health, arc dodging ship run amuck, or kill the PWT and leave soontir vs the remains of your army. Either ship does well in those situations.

Because something wins does not make it easy, however something easy to fly is easier to win with (less mental fatigue etc.)

The only hard ships to fly in my opinion are large base ships that aren't Dash and have to do something besides fly along the table edge.

Fel requires very little brain power to fly unless you get beat on PS. This is from someone who plays Fel a lot.

I don't think you should expect to beat any halfway decent list the first time you face it, right?

wrong otherwise why play at all if you think your going to lose.

A skilled player can make a "sub par" list work well, dice goes cold and human error always plays it's part, but you should never go in expecting to lose.

Not if he doesn't understand how the other list wins... Learning how it does is part of the fun.

If I didn't think I had a decent chance of losing I wouldn't enjoy the game nearly as much. Don't we play for the challenge?

No i play for fun and that can come from both wins and loses, fighting a drawn out battle isn't a challenge it's just a relentless grind.

If that kills your fun a Tie Swarm or a ton of A-Wings with Autothrusters and flown defensively should make your day! Fly them against each other and you will see!

Chewbacca with all mitigation you can put on him is not really hard to kill. You need ships that can pursue him and you need to put at least 2-3 arcs on him per turn. That is hard to do but feasible. But i guarantee he will go down. Granted if you make the mistake to not focus him, or you just can't because if the skill of your adversary, you will lose. But hey... If your gameplan fails and the enemy plays very good, it's perfectly normal to lose against a good list like fat Chewie!

But does that mean turrets or C3PO are broken? Not at all! There are many good lists, not all of them have turrets or win by provoking a 1v1 where damage mitigation wins it for this list! And the player needs skill to get into that 1v1 no doubt! It's a valid strategy like any other.

Again if that bores you or frustrates you, perhaps this is not the game for you!

It's comparable to playing against control decks in Magic, Hearthstone or any other Game allowing such mechanics. Those decks/lists try to bring you into situations where you have very slim chances to win. The art is to not get into such a situation against these lists!

No no. Fel is super-easy. He's the most common named pilot in regional-winning lists.

Coupled with a PWT...you have to pick between focusing soontir and letting a 16 health, arc dodging ship run amuck, or kill the PWT and leave soontir vs the remains of your army. Either ship does well in those situations.

Because something wins does not make it easy, however something easy to fly is easier to win with (less mental fatigue etc.)

The only hard ships to fly in my opinion are large base ships that aren't Dash and have to do something besides fly along the table edge.

Fel requires very little brain power to fly unless you get beat on PS. This is from someone who plays Fel a lot.

so, basically just aggressors and firesprays then

In my limited experience with the game (mostly playing imps against my rebel roommate) I tend to agree with the OP. Sure you can still beat the Falcon (C-3PO, R2-D2, Evade action), but as others have pointed out, that is not the original complaint. It's not fun when you do everything right, outguess your opponent's maneuver, execute your maneuver so you line them up in arc, sacrifice your own damage mitigation options for offensive actions, roll dice above the statistical average and land a 3-4 hit shot only to watch one shield get peeled off if you're lucky and know you have to do that 13 more times in a row (even ignoring R2-D2 shenanigans). Meanwhile the Falcon soft banks 1, shoots 3 dice with re-rolls and waits for your green dice to fail. [/size]

[/size]

-The Falcon is not invincible.[/size]

-The Falcon is not an auto-win.[/size]

[/size]

-Flying at your ship's maximum potential and doing 0-1 damage EVERY TURN is not fun. (For me at least, when compared to flying against pretty much anything else Dash-Horn included)[/size]

[/size]

As a side note; when I started including Outmaneuver in most of my builds my roommate started trying other ships. Now he loves his A-wings and E-wings and sees what I mean when I say the Activation phase is the most fun part of the game. We both just started playing at our local FLGS a month ago and the most fun you can have playing against a defensive Falcon is when you get to tell them C-3PO can't activate. [/size] [/size]

Sorry, but if you really fly your ship to its maximum potential, you will perhaps only do 1 damage to the Falcon. BUT if your second or third ship were flown to their maximum potential as well and get a shot, Chewie or any other falcon go down really really fast. The ship has very good danage mitigation... As long as ONE enemy per turn shoots it. After that it eats damage like no tomorrow! If you're not capable to do that, don't act as if you outguess or outfly your opponent because that's probably not the case then!

So build a decent list, fly it well enough and you will not have difficulties against Fat Falcons. At least not more problems than against any other good list out there!

No no. Fel is super-easy. He's the most common named pilot in regional-winning lists.

Coupled with a PWT...you have to pick between focusing soontir and letting a 16 health, arc dodging ship run amuck, or kill the PWT and leave soontir vs the remains of your army. Either ship does well in those situations.

Because something wins does not make it easy, however something easy to fly is easier to win with (less mental fatigue etc.)

The only hard ships to fly in my opinion are large base ships that aren't Dash and have to do something besides fly along the table edge.

Fel requires very little brain power to fly unless you get beat on PS. This is from someone who plays Fel a lot.

so, basically just aggressors and firesprays then

I flew a lot of aggressors lately and i don't find them hard to fly at all... Granted i go for Advanced sensors over FCS but even if not i don't think the ship is hard to fly. Often you can get your shot and avoid arcs. What more do you want? You have a boatload of options for green maneuvers as well!

The Firespray needs Engine upgrade, because else its movement is too limited. But with that it's a very decent ship. I think it does not reach an Aggressors power level but it's not that difficult to fly either!

No no. Fel is super-easy. He's the most common named pilot in regional-winning lists.

Coupled with a PWT...you have to pick between focusing soontir and letting a 16 health, arc dodging ship run amuck, or kill the PWT and leave soontir vs the remains of your army. Either ship does well in those situations.

Because something wins does not make it easy, however something easy to fly is easier to win with (less mental fatigue etc.)

The only hard ships to fly in my opinion are large base ships that aren't Dash and have to do something besides fly along the table edge.

Fel requires very little brain power to fly unless you get beat on PS. This is from someone who plays Fel a lot.

so, basically just aggressors and firesprays then

I flew a lot of aggressors lately and i don't find them hard to fly at all... Granted i go for Advanced sensors over FCS but even if not i don't think the ship is hard to fly. Often you can get your shot and avoid arcs. What more do you want? You have a boatload of options for green maneuvers as well!

The Firespray needs Engine upgrade, because else its movement is too limited. But with that it's a very decent ship. I think it does not reach an Aggressors power level but it's not that difficult to fly either!

so...nothing's hard to fly!

though I really don't see Aggressors as that simple when obstructions come into play. Granted they would be with a PWT, but that single arc on a 4x base just begging to overlap everything makes manuevering and locking onto targets a difficult decision (unless you're running up against something you can just outdice, in which case go slow and bump and unload the HLCs!)

No no. Fel is super-easy. He's the most common named pilot in regional-winning lists.

Coupled with a PWT...you have to pick between focusing soontir and letting a 16 health, arc dodging ship run amuck, or kill the PWT and leave soontir vs the remains of your army. Either ship does well in those situations.

Because something wins does not make it easy, however something easy to fly is easier to win with (less mental fatigue etc.)

The only hard ships to fly in my opinion are large base ships that aren't Dash and have to do something besides fly along the table edge.

Fel requires very little brain power to fly unless you get beat on PS. This is from someone who plays Fel a lot.

so, basically just aggressors and firesprays then

I flew a lot of aggressors lately and i don't find them hard to fly at all... Granted i go for Advanced sensors over FCS but even if not i don't think the ship is hard to fly. Often you can get your shot and avoid arcs. What more do you want? You have a boatload of options for green maneuvers as well!

The Firespray needs Engine upgrade, because else its movement is too limited. But with that it's a very decent ship. I think it does not reach an Aggressors power level but it's not that difficult to fly either!

so...nothing's hard to fly!

though I really don't see Aggressors as that simple when obstructions come into play. Granted they would be with a PWT, but that single arc on a 4x base just begging to overlap everything makes manuevering and locking onto targets a difficult decision (unless you're running up against something you can just outdice, in which case go slow and bump and unload the HLCs!)

No really not, you need to be careful to not get entangled at close range. But that's the only rule. I run them with advanced sensors as i said, so you can be very effective and boost into a segnor or a hard turn. With that you can avoid most enemies and obstacles. You are very unpredictable even at PS6. Even more so if you take VI. As long as you keep your distance (and you will be able to with a large base with boost) not even other arc dodgers will be a big problem. They are best at dodging arcs at close range and that's what you need to avoid happening. At long range you have big arcs and your cannon will make a difference!

PWT are equally not that frightening with AT. If you think you can get a shot at close range (and take return fire) or not get a shot and stay at R3 or get out of range, then stay away! With an agressor you dictate the engagement at R3 or R2 while out of arc. Your cannon ignores range, theirs not. You will cause damage and most of the time it will stick even against C3PO and R2D2. They have slim chance of damaging you at R3 with AT, even with gunner (which they dont have if they have R2D2 plus C3PO)

I feel that with Aggressors i have a very good Matchup vs Fat Falcon, especially Chewie who has less PS. My friend often takes outmaneuver, i prefer predator. Outmaneuver really makes it ridiculously easy against falcons. The bad thing is that its useless against Decimators that are not Kenkirk.

I was down to IGB vs a Chewie that could negate 2 per turn, the problem with the aggressor is that it is too fast and the falcon can just do 1 turns to force you to break off and reposition so you don't bump, while the falcon lays into you. I didn't have HLC, opted for ion+mangler to have more control. It came down to 1 HP vs 1 HP so I chanced range 1 and slammed 4 hits into him for the win. But we essentially traded 1 hit back and forth even with my AT. Good ole green dice.

I don't think people are saying turrets are the doom of the game, at least no one being very reasonable. It is a bit dim to claim they aren't an easy button in many ways however, and people do tend to dislike seeing the easy button all the time. However, the relative ease of using a turret with some very strong damage mitigation is the issue. Either on their own, not as bad, together they are brutal. They also punish those who would try and play lists that aren't similar power tooled which is something I've seen alot of in this game. So many ships, and options I've love to try, but unless I have my opponent agree to a fun game, I'll need to bring the power to combat power which means many of those ships/combos I'll never get to play unless I want to get smashed.

Lastly however i'd say, if someone doesn't want to hear someone complain about something, you can choose not to read the post, or listen to the words, by doing so your inviting the pain on yourself.

P.S. I'm a Fel hipster, used him in almost all my lists before he was over the top, at least I'm still a shuttle hipster.

My Two Cents:

I fought 6 turret lists at the regional. I don't have a turret, My list is Bigg, Key, Wes. I found the day very boring.

I fought 2 Rac one with fel and one with wisper. Both with Issane, 2 Pancake list, 1 chew, and 1 han. 3po was in all 4 lists. I use outmanever, on my list to cancel him. I find you have to take outmanuever. 4-2 is not bad, missed the cut. It two games chewy was down 2 only 2 hull left, but I couldn't finish him.

I did have fun, but I spend money to eat, stay overnight, and play. I kinda felt robed. I'm not blaming players for using the list that works best with the rules outlined. Good players do that. But I went because I wanted to met people and see new and exciting lists and strategies. What I found was pretty much the same lists and pretty much the same strategy. Very stale. There are effective strategies to combat them, I used those to good effect. All my opponents were kind and courteous.

My Take: is that PW turrets when they first came out were costed well, because there were not a lot of options for them, no z's, and not a lot of crew. The problem is since all the new releases and more crew (Which are basically EPT for any large ship) There are so many options now that now PW turrets are worth more than you pay for them, because every new crew adds another ability to the ship.

Some options are coming out to combat them, outmaneuver is one of them, but unlike crew which every large ship can take, only small ships with EPT can take it. So small ships generics without EPT's are now suffering a major imbalance.

I'm hoping more cards will come along to help, but will see.

If I were FFG, I would state all ships can take an EPT, and if they already have one they get another one. 4 X-wings with outmaneuver, and on the flank of a falcon would devastate it

My only issue was that the day was not what I expected it to be. Yes I had fun, But facing the same type of ships and strategy every game.

To be honest, in my last game, I just didn't want to play anymore and was happy I didn't make the cut. Something I have never felt when playing x-wing.

Well there's only so many times you can do the same thing in a row before fatigue sets in,much like raiding in an mmo the first few times you kill a boss are fun but if you do it week after week it gets old.

Wave 7 will bring some things in that will help a bit. Twin Lasers are one (four BTL-A4 Y-Wings with Twin Laser turrets = death by a thousand cuts, especially if one can bring R3A2 along).

A swarm of Kihrahz fighters will be another. Five K-fighters will provide 15 attack dice, which should be enough to pound Han down, while also having an edge on his escorts and still having enough red dice and maneuverability to dogfight Soontir.

My Two Cents:

I fought 6 turret lists at the regional. I don't have a turret, My list is Bigg, Key, Wes. I found the day very boring.

I fought 2 Rac one with fel and one with wisper. Both with Issane, 2 Pancake list, 1 chew, and 1 han. 3po was in all 4 lists. I use outmanever, on my list to cancel him. I find you have to take outmanuever. 4-2 is not bad, missed the cut. It two games chewy was down 2 only 2 hull left, but I couldn't finish him.

I did have fun, but I spend money to eat, stay overnight, and play. I kinda felt robed. I'm not blaming players for using the list that works best with the rules outlined. Good players do that. But I went because I wanted to met people and see new and exciting lists and strategies. What I found was pretty much the same lists and pretty much the same strategy. Very stale. There are effective strategies to combat them, I used those to good effect. All my opponents were kind and courteous.

My Take: is that PW turrets when they first came out were costed well, because there were not a lot of options for them, no z's, and not a lot of crew. The problem is since all the new releases and more crew (Which are basically EPT for any large ship) There are so many options now that now PW turrets are worth more than you pay for them, because every new crew adds another ability to the ship.

Some options are coming out to combat them, outmaneuver is one of them, but unlike crew which every large ship can take, only small ships with EPT can take it. So small ships generics without EPT's are now suffering a major imbalance.

I'm hoping more cards will come along to help, but will see.

If I were FFG, I would state all ships can take an EPT, and if they already have one they get another one. 4 X-wings with outmaneuver, and on the flank of a falcon would devastate it

My only issue was that the day was not what I expected it to be. Yes I had fun, But facing the same type of ships and strategy every game.

To be honest, in my last game, I just didn't want to play anymore and was happy I didn't make the cut. Something I have never felt when playing x-wing.

I'm hoping that Crackshot removes tokens from targets. But we still need something else to help generic fighters, who don't have epts.

Well see. I know FFG understands what's going on and I'm sure they are working on it.

well, if Homing Missiles can't be canceled by evade tokens, maybe Advanced Homing missiles...

well, if Homing Missiles can't be canceled by evade tokens, maybe Advanced Homing missiles...

...won't get added to the game?