If it was two R2 3PO builds, and they couldn't kill each other than it goes to initiative. Pretty clear, just like any other draw.

A draw/tie is a draw/tie, period. Only time you'd win with just init when you're otherwise tied on points is during elimination rounds.

Funny, i hate fat falcons too. I don't mind Decimators by principle, though I'm sure if i had to play too many of them all the time I'd get sick of them too.

If it was two R2 3PO builds, and they couldn't kill each other than it goes to initiative. Pretty clear, just like any other draw.

A draw/tie is a draw/tie, period. Only time you'd win with just init when you're otherwise tied on points is during elimination rounds.

Like the final match.

Funny, i hate fat falcons too. I don't mind Decimators by principle, though I'm sure if i had to play too many of them all the time I'd get sick of them too.

Decimators are quite lovely, in that even though they're damage sponges, they have almost no damage mitigation.

It was a pretty close game

So it was a fair fight, down to the wire, against an "overpowered" list? What else was expected?

Ideally I should have gone for chewie first (which I did initially)

You identified you made a mistake, yet your game was still close. Tell me what the problem was again?

Frankly after Heaver won with that combo (but with han) I'm surprised it took me this long to go against it.

So you identify that it's a worlds winning list, and that you have never flown against a list like this before. Tell me again, how much this set up has affected your overall experience with the game. Oh, one match?

This is the garbage these forums are producing. People complain about an aspect of the game they don't like, and people that have never experienced it see it for the first time, don't know how to approach the list optimally, lose, and then come on the forums to fuel the fire.

I played against this guy after this game on Vassal. I loaded up a Chewie/Corran list I'm practicing for Nationals (and even if I wasn't, who's to say I can't fly it?), and he immediately replies "ugh, I hate your list". This is the kind of disgusting behavior being promoted on these forums, instead of accepting the challenge and testing the list against something that is a proven winner.

I've only been on these forums for about 2 months, and I'm already tired of it. I joined to be able to talk about the game I loved, instead all I see is negativity.

I feel bad for some of the local groups that have to deal with these kinds of people. I'm going to go start my Escalation League with mine that don't complain about the game.

You guys can go ahead and be miserable on your own

OP wasn't complaining that the Chewie build was too overpowered. He was complaining that it was boring to play against. Close game or not, win or lose, it was a boring match.

Funny, i hate fat falcons too. I don't mind Decimators by principle, though I'm sure if i had to play too many of them all the time I'd get sick of them too.

Decimators are quite lovely, in that even though they're damage sponges, they have almost no damage mitigation.

Yeah, RAC+Predator shenanigans where it always gets 3/3 and 4/4 hits on you is annoying, but it is kind of nice to have range 3 TIE Fighters pounding damage into it, lol. It's probably the least annoying of the Turretwing ships.

Super Dash > Falcon > Decimator > Post Nerf Whisper/Super Corran > Aggressors. Not ranked according to power, more so ranked according to how annoying they are to fight and how game breaking they are.

Some of the power cards need to be toned down. FCS should give you a TL at the end of the end phase, Predator should only work against lower Pilot Skills. Outrider title should have just not existed at all. C-3PO should either be changed to not allow zero as a valid guess, or treat him as a reinforce token that works for a round and is then disposed. I like disposable cards in this game, they're rather interesting.

Mitigation Chewie is fun to play against if you're running Brath. Yes Chewie, you are going to take pilot crits, and you're not going to discard them.

Funny, i hate fat falcons too. I don't mind Decimators by principle, though I'm sure if i had to play too many of them all the time I'd get sick of them too.

Decimators are quite lovely, in that even though they're damage sponges, they have almost no damage mitigation.

Yeah, RAC+Predator shenanigans where it always gets 3/3 and 4/4 hits on you is annoying, but it is kind of nice to have range 3 TIE Fighters pounding damage into it, lol. It's probably the least annoying of the Turretwing ships.

Super Dash > Falcon > Decimator > Post Nerf Whisper/Super Corran > Aggressors. Not ranked according to power, more so ranked according to how annoying they are to fight and how game breaking they are.

Some of the power cards need to be toned down. FCS should give you a TL at the end of the end phase, Predator should only work against lower Pilot Skills. Outrider title should have just not existed at all. C-3PO should either be changed to not allow zero as a valid guess, or treat him as a reinforce token that works for a round and is then disposed. I like disposable cards in this game, they're rather interesting.

I so disagree with you here. =/

FCS is fine

Pred is fine

Outrider is interesting...

C3PO i could agree with not allowing 0. That's it.

You sure have a very large OP list there.

Also... who runs RAC with Predator? Never heard of this. Cmon forumites, tell me, is RAC with ExpEI RC and Isard the norm?

Gunner or DV to taste?

Also... who runs RAC with Predator? Never heard of this. Cmon forumites, tell me, is RAC with ExpEI RC and Isard the norm?

Gunner or DV to taste?

I have seen RAC with Predator

Stress-Wing, otherwise a decent counter to these builds, has a lot of trouble with it.

I think when the game becomes 100% unwinnable when there are still ships on the board, then the game is broken. A z95 can still take a range 3 shot on a focused cloaked whisper and deal some damage (something in the 90% range in being unwinnable ). I can understand a Hwk without a turret against a Baron Fel take a horrible run in terms of gameplay. However, when a tiefighter range 1 have no chance at all of doing damage to a fat falcon -without even needing to know anything other than always choose to evade, and avoid the rocks- then there is a problem. I understand that you have to take down the fat falcon fast, or figure a way to deal with it endgame, but a change needs to happen.

Phantoms got nerfed without being near as bad in terms of being "unwinnable"

the best argument I heard for a need to change fat falcons is "what happens if at worlds it becomes fat han vs fat han?".

The only thing unique about these heavy-mitigation turrets is their incredibly high cost. Unwinnable situations are here to stay and have been around since wave 2.

Also... who runs RAC with Predator? Never heard of this. Cmon forumites, tell me, is RAC with ExpEI RC and Isard the norm?

Gunner or DV to taste?

I have seen RAC with Predator

Stress-Wing, otherwise a decent counter to these builds, has a lot of trouble with it.

seen nothing but predator. Given generics are the most reliable way to out-dice PWTs, it makes sense

used to see a lot of V.I back when Whisper was the thing (mostly to hit rebel captive before your whisper did, if not to also hit enemy whispers before recloaking)

I think when the game becomes 100% unwinnable when there are still ships on the board, then the game is broken. A z95 can still take a range 3 shot on a focused cloaked whisper and deal some damage (something in the 90% range in being unwinnable ). I can understand a Hwk without a turret against a Baron Fel take a horrible run in terms of gameplay. However, when a tiefighter range 1 have no chance at all of doing damage to a fat falcon -without even needing to know anything other than always choose to evade, and avoid the rocks- then there is a problem. I understand that you have to take down the fat falcon fast, or figure a way to deal with it endgame, but a change needs to happen.

Phantoms got nerfed without being near as bad in terms of being "unwinnable"

the best argument I heard for a need to change fat falcons is "what happens if at worlds it becomes fat han vs fat han?".

the game has had loads of unwinnable ships-on-the-table situations since the start. Fel against 2 rookies has always been as bad or worse than Han against 2 rookies. And pre-nerf Whisper really wasn't a guaranteed loss for any 2 rebel generics? Please. Unless Whisper flies off the board or forgets to cloak it is as certain as the sunrise.

The only thing unique about these heavy-mitigation turrets is their incredibly high cost. Unwinnable situations are here to stay and have been around since wave 2.

Yeah. I pretty consistently see complaints about the Falcon's damage mitigation, or the general PWT dislike, or any number of complaints, but it's not the only ship that's tough to beat 1v1. Truth is, it's not really 1v1 when you've got a decked out Chewie (55+ points) vs something another single ship (maybe 25-30 points?) Any time you take double the points in ship vs whatever you have, it's not a fair battle, and you shouldn't expect your opponent to slow down and make it easy for you to kill him. The whole point of this game is to win, and if your opponent beats you, it's up to you to find something to enjoy about the experience.

I feel a bit like the complaints people have aren't really put into good perspective. Our OP didn't share what he had when it was 3v1 or what he had when it was 1v1. I'm also tired of the 'it's boring' line. If it's boring, play something else. Quit trying to convince everyone else that playing against a turreted ship is boring, because it's not boring for some other people like myself.

Jacob

Yep RAC with what I see being the standardized load-out theses day:

RAC

Predator

Yasanne Isaard

Gunner

Vader Crew

EU

Action economy at its brutal best. Literally has a better than 1/5 chance of killing a 35 Soontir Fel on the first engagement (at the cost of 4 shields of course), and if not severely crippling .

Additionally mid game by the time it has some damage on it, even if it gets blocked RAC gets to:

Free evade action

1-2 attack reroll

Mini-focus on attack

Gunner trigger

Vader crit (potentially 2 with gunner trigger)

Something that I take from this is that the more slots you can fill with Crew/upgrades that provide effects that don’t consume an action the more likely you are to have what many would consider an OP ship.

I'm fine with forcing good taste upon people.

I've seen a Store Championship Top 4 have 6 Turrets and 2 Corrans in it, it couldn't have possibly been less exciting.

In my limited experience with the game (mostly playing imps against my rebel roommate) I tend to agree with the OP. Sure you can still beat the Falcon (C-3PO, R2-D2, Evade action), but as others have pointed out, that is not the original complaint. It's not fun when you do everything right, outguess your opponent's maneuver, execute your maneuver so you line them up in arc, sacrifice your own damage mitigation options for offensive actions, roll dice above the statistical average and land a 3-4 hit shot only to watch one shield get peeled off if you're lucky and know you have to do that 13 more times in a row (even ignoring R2-D2 shenanigans). Meanwhile the Falcon soft banks 1, shoots 3 dice with re-rolls and waits for your green dice to fail.

-The Falcon is not invincible.

-The Falcon is not an auto-win.

-Flying at your ship's maximum potential and doing 0-1 damage EVERY TURN is not fun. (For me at least, when compared to flying against pretty much anything else Dash-Horn included)

As a side note; when I started including Outmaneuver in most of my builds my roommate started trying other ships. Now he loves his A-wings and E-wings and sees what I mean when I say the Activation phase is the most fun part of the game. We both just started playing at our local FLGS a month ago and the most fun you can have playing against a defensive Falcon is when you get to tell them C-3PO can't activate.

I'm fine with forcing good taste upon people.

I've seen a Store Championship Top 4 have 6 Turrets and 2 Corrans in it, it couldn't have possibly been less exciting.

I think when the game becomes 100% unwinnable when there are still ships on the board, then the game is broken. A z95 can still take a range 3 shot on a focused cloaked whisper and deal some damage (something in the 90% range in being unwinnable ). I can understand a Hwk without a turret against a Baron Fel take a horrible run in terms of gameplay. However, when a tiefighter range 1 have no chance at all of doing damage to a fat falcon -without even needing to know anything other than always choose to evade, and avoid the rocks- then there is a problem. I understand that you have to take down the fat falcon fast, or figure a way to deal with it endgame, but a change needs to happen.

Phantoms got nerfed without being near as bad in terms of being "unwinnable"

the best argument I heard for a need to change fat falcons is "what happens if at worlds it becomes fat han vs fat han?".

A lot of assumptions here. I never saw a list start with a single Tie vs a fat falcon. Seems you lost the game way before you got to this point.

I think when the game becomes 100% unwinnable when there are still ships on the board, then the game is broken. A z95 can still take a range 3 shot on a focused cloaked whisper and deal some damage (something in the 90% range in being unwinnable ). I can understand a Hwk without a turret against a Baron Fel take a horrible run in terms of gameplay. However, when a tiefighter range 1 have no chance at all of doing damage to a fat falcon -without even needing to know anything other than always choose to evade, and avoid the rocks- then there is a problem. I understand that you have to take down the fat falcon fast, or figure a way to deal with it endgame, but a change needs to happen.

Phantoms got nerfed without being near as bad in terms of being "unwinnable"

the best argument I heard for a need to change fat falcons is "what happens if at worlds it becomes fat han vs fat han?".

the game has had loads of unwinnable ships-on-the-table situations since the start. Fel against 2 rookies has always been as bad or worse than Han against 2 rookies. And pre-nerf Whisper really wasn't a guaranteed loss for any 2 rebel generics? Please. Unless Whisper flies off the board or forgets to cloak it is as certain as the sunrise.

The only thing unique about these heavy-mitigation turrets is their incredibly high cost. Unwinnable situations are here to stay and have been around since wave 2.

I completely disagree. Getting shots on Fel with 2 xwings is very doable. Infact I think Fel is at a disadvantage against 2 rookies and a competent player. He is great at beating newbies, and becoming a ghost. The key is to know when to and when not to engage Fel. If there are other ships, Fel will dance around your flank, if you go after him at the wrong time you wont have any shots at all, however if you avoided him it is likely that he does not have shots with a 35ish point ship. Fel is also a bit of a glass cannon once he needs to destress.

Yep RAC with what I see being the standardized load-out theses day:

RAC

Predator

Yasanne Isaard

Gunner

Vader Crew

EU

Action economy at its brutal best. Literally has a better than 1/5 chance of killing a 35 Soontir Fel on the first engagement (at the cost of 4 shields of course), and if not severely crippling .

Additionally mid game by the time it has some damage on it, even if it gets blocked RAC gets to:

Free evade action

1-2 attack reroll

Mini-focus on attack

Gunner trigger

Vader crit (potentially 2 with gunner trigger)

Something that I take from this is that the more slots you can fill with Crew/upgrades that provide effects that don’t consume an action the more likely you are to have what many would consider an OP ship.

Wait seriously?? NO REBEL CAPTIVE??

RC shuts down Dash hard.

It also shuts down any PTL stuff.

I guess ExpEI RAC is too prone to being stressed by something nowadays for it to be a safe bet?

I can see that 3dice Predator, RAC F, boost is quite good... Let's you mitigate against your worst matchup, the swarms right?

I thought the normal was RAC Expose EI Isard RC Gunner/Vader to taste.

I think when the game becomes 100% unwinnable when there are still ships on the board, then the game is broken. A z95 can still take a range 3 shot on a focused cloaked whisper and deal some damage (something in the 90% range in being unwinnable ). I can understand a Hwk without a turret against a Baron Fel take a horrible run in terms of gameplay. However, when a tiefighter range 1 have no chance at all of doing damage to a fat falcon -without even needing to know anything other than always choose to evade, and avoid the rocks- then there is a problem. I understand that you have to take down the fat falcon fast, or figure a way to deal with it endgame, but a change needs to happen.

Phantoms got nerfed without being near as bad in terms of being "unwinnable"

the best argument I heard for a need to change fat falcons is "what happens if at worlds it becomes fat han vs fat han?".

the game has had loads of unwinnable ships-on-the-table situations since the start. Fel against 2 rookies has always been as bad or worse than Han against 2 rookies. And pre-nerf Whisper really wasn't a guaranteed loss for any 2 rebel generics? Please. Unless Whisper flies off the board or forgets to cloak it is as certain as the sunrise.

The only thing unique about these heavy-mitigation turrets is their incredibly high cost. Unwinnable situations are here to stay and have been around since wave 2.

I completely disagree. Getting shots on Fel with 2 xwings is very doable. Infact I think Fel is at a disadvantage against 2 rookies and a competent player. He is great at beating newbies, and becoming a ghost. The key is to know when to and when not to engage Fel. If there are other ships, Fel will dance around your flank, if you go after him at the wrong time you wont have any shots at all, however if you avoided him it is likely that he does not have shots with a 35ish point ship. Fel is also a bit of a glass cannon once he needs to destress.

"Just a matter of time." is the phrase that is usually used.

Whisper relegated 4-ship rebel and tie swarms to obscurity. Han did not.

^ I used to practice killing a decked out Whisper with two Rooks, when the Phantom was first released.

I strongly recommend trying the same vs Fel as it will greatly improve your game and my personal experience is that it is very much doable against other skilled opponents.

_{I am going to second the notion that turrets are not the issue. Decimator is not unbeatable. Dash also not unbeatable. you pay a premium in points for that turret. I don't think turrets should be removed from the game. I get a little tired of everyone constantly whining about them. how many threads have we had on this? Now, I would agree with those who say this build may be too good from a damage mitigation perspective, and I think tweaking 3po would help, as others have mentioned. I think anytime a build becomes so prevalent in the competitive scene like this one has (or like whisper did) that's a good indication that some tweaking is needed.}

_{I rarely play turrets, but I am glad they are part of the game and costed appropriately. I do think in the falcon setup there is a little too much damage mitigation, especially if boost / evade is used liberally.}

_{I disagree with those who say there is no skill involved in flying such a ship, but I would agree that it is easier than flying soontir.}

_{I am going to second the notion that turrets are not the issue. Decimator is not unbeatable. Dash also not unbeatable. you pay a premium in points for that turret. I don't think turrets should be removed from the game. I get a little tired of everyone constantly whining about them. how many threads have we had on this? Now, I would agree with those who say this build may be too good from a damage mitigation perspective, and I think tweaking 3po would help, as others have mentioned. I think anytime a build becomes so prevalent in the competitive scene like this one has (or like whisper did) that's a good indication that some tweaking is needed.}

_{I rarely play turrets, but I am glad they are part of the game and costed appropriately. I do think in the falcon setup there is a little too much damage mitigation, especially if boost / evade is used liberally.}

_{I disagree with those who say there is no skill involved in flying such a ship, but I would agree that it is easier than flying soontir.}

Not that soontir is particularly difficult to fly in my opinion.

4) This maybe belongs in one of the other fat turret threads, but here's how Id fix fat falcons. First I'd make it that with 3po you have to guess at least 1 so there's some chance involved. Second for r2, I'd maybe flip the ability around. It still works as it reads now, but instead of rolling to see if you fip a damage card, you'd roll to see if you recover a shield. That way you're only getting a shield back 3/8's of the time, which would be more fair I think.

Nobody would use either of these things. The cost in points and the opportunity cost of giving up a crew slot would kill them. Everyone would just use gunner instead.

There's a reason why the best crew/astromechs don't rely on rolling dice to get their effect. And I would argue that as the 2 characters we see first in the original trilogy, C-3PO and R2-D2 have a reason to be powerful. Especially when throwaway EU characters like Isard and random people like Rebel captives are just as useful.