I don't think you should expect to beat any halfway decent list the first time you face it, right?

wrong otherwise why play at all if you think your going to lose.

A skilled player can make a "sub par" list work well, dice goes cold and human error always plays it's part, but you should never go in expecting to lose.

Not if he doesn't understand how the other list wins... Learning how it does is part of the fun.

If I didn't think I had a decent chance of losing I wouldn't enjoy the game nearly as much. Don't we play for the challenge?

No i play for fun and that can come from both wins and loses, fighting a drawn out battle isn't a challenge it's just a relentless grind.

SuperFel is incredibly good at damage mitigation, but he's not broken. Falcons are just more expensive versions of that.

It's not in the slightest the same thing. To shoot at ships, Fel has to point at them. Too shoot at ships, Fel has to risk actually heading toward ships. To shoot at ships, Fel has to risk getting blocked. When Fel gets blocked, Fel has 3 HP.

Boosting turrets don't have to point at ships, don't have to head toward ships, and don't have to risk getting blocked. And when they do get blocked, they have 13-16 HP.

It's nothing even close to the same thing, and it's impossible to take the opinion seriously of someone who apparently thinks it is.

It's not in the slightest the same thing. To shoot at ships, Fel has to point at them. Too shoot at ships, Fel has to risk actually heading toward ships. To shoot at ships, Fel has to risk getting blocked. When Fel gets blocked, Fel has 3 HP.

Boosting turrets don't have to point at ships, don't have to head toward ships, and don't have to risk getting blocked. And when they do get blocked, they have 13-16 HP.

It's nothing even close to the same thing, and it's impossible to take the opinion seriously of someone who apparently thinks it is.

Very much well said.

Someone should get off their turret high.

Chewie isn't that hard to kill, just focus fire all of your ships at him until he dies, who cares if he doesn't take critical hits, plus 3po and r2d2 can only be used once per turn, not every attack, he usually goes down in 2 to 3 turns given reasonable dice rolls, longer if you don't roll well but hey that's the luck of the dice.

Fel can go down in flames in one turn if he gets blocked, it's not even remotely close to the same thing as Chewie, 3PO, R2, and the MF title. Hell, other Fat Falcons aren't even close to that build. It's probably one of the main reasons the Escalation rule were changed to require a 2 ship minimum in your starting 60 point list.

Wait...are you saying that 60-point ships can be hard to kill?!

Mind blown.

Well almost any ship can be hard to kill if flown well. But the point of this thread is that a particular 60 point build, that has every upgrade dedicated to maximizing damage mitigation is both nearly impossible to kill, and not even remotely fun to play against.

Fel can go down in flames in one turn if he gets blocked, it's not even remotely close to the same thing as Chewie, 3PO, R2, and the MF title. Hell, other Fat Falcons aren't even close to that build. It's probably one of the main reasons the Escalation rule were changed to require a 2 ship minimum in your starting 60 point list.

Just bring brobots or Corran. They eat his lunch. Like Fel eats B's.

Chewie isn't that hard to kill, just focus fire all of your ships at him until he dies, who cares if he doesn't take critical hits, plus 3po and r2d2 can only be used once per turn, not every attack, he usually goes down in 2 to 3 turns given reasonable dice rolls, longer if you don't roll well but hey that's the luck of the dice.

those last words are why PWTs are such boring bastards to play against

you're always against luck of the dice constantly when nothing you can do gets you out of that PWT, unless you don't want to shoot and it and hope he kindly flies off the board for you. Best you can do is mitigate the odds by facilitating positions where you get more dice than him. (or just apply Corran )

mind you that's PWTs in general, not just chewie

Wait...are you saying that 60-point ships can be hard to kill?!

Mind blown.

Well almost any ship can be hard to kill if flown well. But the point of this thread is that a particular 60 point build, that has every upgrade dedicated to maximizing damage mitigation is both nearly impossible to kill, and not even remotely fun to play against.

I think it is. It would be a less interesting game without them. You just have to realize that they aren't like other targets and adjust.

What's to adjust? It's just like any big turreted ship, you need to prioritize it and focus it down before you don't have enough ships to deal with it. This build is just the most boring and frustrating form of it I've ever faced, it's just tedious and that's not any fun to me. I play games for fun, by the way, and if it's not fun then it's a waste of time to me.

I would suggest people talking against Falcons and turrets in general play some games fielding those ships. It will either become apparent what their weaknesses are and/or that they aren't OP.

Embrace the power of turrets! Or don't. Whatever. Just play.

Now you know why we hate pwts...just not fun to play against.

SuperFel is incredibly good at damage mitigation, but he's not broken. Falcons are just more expensive versions of that.

It's not in the slightest the same thing. To shoot at ships, Fel has to point at them. Too shoot at ships, Fel has to risk actually heading toward ships. To shoot at ships, Fel has to risk getting blocked. When Fel gets blocked, Fel has 3 HP.

Boosting turrets don't have to point at ships, don't have to head toward ships, and don't have to risk getting blocked. And when they do get blocked, they have 13-16 HP.

It's nothing even close to the same thing, and it's impossible to take the opinion seriously of someone who apparently thinks it is.

To shoot at ships with Fel, the Imperial player must spend 35 points (with upgrades).

To shoot at ships with Chewie, the Rebel player must spend 42 points (before upgrades).

I understand that Fel is not a turret. I am aware of that. I think you missed the main point that I was making: their similarity is in damage mitigation. I'm not trying to say that they fly the same; I'm trying to say that they rely on protecting their points cost by reducing the number of hits that get through to them. OBVIOUSLY Falcons are better than Soontir -- THEY'RE MORE EXPENSIVE. They're SUPPOSED to be better than a lot of other ships. That's how this game works. Likewise, if a turret bumps, it **** well shouldn't die that round just because of one mistake; if it did, they would be TERRIBLE ships to fly.

Furthermore, turret players DO have to play the maneuvering game. If I can joust a turret, I'll win. If I can pin a turret against an edge or in the corner, I'll win. If I can draw a turret into a dense asteroid field, I'll win. Turrets fear these things, and other ships don't. I'll be the first to admit that they have to play the maneuvering game less than other ships, but that's to be expected -- it's the same way that Firesprays have to play the maneuvering game less than squints. Learn to fly against turrets and you'll have fun in this meta. Keep complaining about them instead, and you'll just get more and more ingrained in this view that prohibits you from having fun.

I'm perfectly happy to have a civil debate, but this veers into the realm of personal insults. And if I may toot my own horn a bit, I came in Top 8 at Regionals last year and took home second this year. I know that's not King of the World stuff, and I know that a lot of people on these forums have done a lot more; but I don't think it's wrong to say that I'm good at this game and that my opinion (emphasis on opinion) is credible.

I would suggest people talking against Falcons and turrets in general play some games fielding those ships. It will either become apparent what their weaknesses are and/or that they aren't OP.

Embrace the power of turrets! Or don't. Whatever. Just play.

I played HLC Super Dash once. Was super easy mode and I often felt that I was playing a broken ship.

I know what their strengths are and their weaknesses, and I have a pretty good idea of how to play them. I've had to deal with their obnoxious BS for months straight.

I would suggest people talking against Falcons and turrets in general play some games fielding those ships. It will either become apparent what their weaknesses are and/or that they aren't OP.

Embrace the power of turrets! Or don't. Whatever. Just play.

I played HLC Super Dash ONCE. Was super easy mode and I often felt that I was playing a broken ship.

I know what their strengths are and their weaknesses, and I have a pretty good idea of how to play them. I've had to deal with their obnoxious BS for months straight.

I would suggest people talking against Falcons and turrets in general play some games fielding those ships. It will either become apparent what their weaknesses are and/or that they aren't OP.

How do you know they don't?

It's funny but I actually have the opposite experience. I dont regularly play them, but when I do, I find they are much easier to play (especially higher PS with EU) than small base ships. A friend and I started playing them more regularly as we were prepping for regionals (neither of us typically took them) We found they were much easier to play than a lot of the other non-turret lists we'd been playing and were honestly baffled by how people could take the stance that they were just as challenging to play overall. Now, they still have to be played well, especially to make the cut and win (thankfully skill is still the ultimate factor in this game), but I'm very confident in the stance that YTs and Decimators as the center of a list are much easier to play than an equivalent point value of small ships.

It IS pretty frustrating. it feels silly when you can't do any damage.

However, it IS part of the game, and the build itself does have drawbacks, such as being even more incapable of doing damage to an Autothruster interceptor than a Falcon with Gunner.

But you've pretty much lost when down to 1 ship vs 1 ship. And it isn't a guarantee when you DO have multiple ships available.

I wouldn't call it boring to play against, since the challenge makes it exciting, and if your green dice hold out, the Falcon is probably doing less damage than he rightly should, but I it certainly does get annoying when you can't kill that thing! Nothing like losing a match when you still have 30-60 pts on the board.

It was a pretty close game

So it was a fair fight, down to the wire, against an "overpowered" list? What else was expected?

Ideally I should have gone for chewie first (which I did initially)

You identified you made a mistake, yet your game was still close. Tell me what the problem was again?

Frankly after Heaver won with that combo (but with han) I'm surprised it took me this long to go against it.

So you identify that it's a worlds winning list, and that you have never flown against a list like this before. Tell me again, how much this set up has affected your overall experience with the game. Oh, one match?

This is the garbage these forums are producing. People complain about an aspect of the game they don't like, and people that have never experienced it see it for the first time, don't know how to approach the list optimally, lose, and then come on the forums to fuel the fire.

I played against this guy after this game on Vassal. I loaded up a Chewie/Corran list I'm practicing for Nationals (and even if I wasn't, who's to say I can't fly it?), and he immediately replies "ugh, I hate your list". This is the kind of disgusting behavior being promoted on these forums, instead of accepting the challenge and testing the list against something that is a proven winner.

I've only been on these forums for about 2 months, and I'm already tired of it. I joined to be able to talk about the game I loved, instead all I see is negativity.

I feel bad for some of the local groups that have to deal with these kinds of people. I'm going to go start my Escalation League with mine that don't complain about the game.

You guys can go ahead and be miserable on your own

If I may inquire, what was your list? Rebs? Imps? scum? Also word of advice, if you see your opponent taking a large based ship, you might want to modify your list to take one as well. If you don't have a big ship, I would advise investing in one. Also was this a casual pick up game or a tourney game?

It was a pretty close game

So it was a fair fight, down to the wire, against an "overpowered" list? What else was expected?

Ideally I should have gone for chewie first (which I did initially)

You identified you made a mistake, yet your game was still close. Tell me what the problem was again?

Frankly after Heaver won with that combo (but with han) I'm surprised it took me this long to go against it.

So you identify that it's a worlds winning list, and that you have never flown against a list like this before. Tell me again, how much this set up has affected your overall experience with the game. Oh, one match?

This is the garbage these forums are producing. People complain about an aspect of the game they don't like, and people that have never experienced it see it for the first time, don't know how to approach the list optimally, lose, and then come on the forums to fuel the fire.

I played against this guy after this game on Vassal. I loaded up a Chewie/Corran list I'm practicing for Nationals (and even if I wasn't, who's to say I can't fly it?), and he immediately replies "ugh, I hate your list". This is the kind of disgusting behavior being promoted on these forums, instead of accepting the challenge and testing the list against something that is a proven winner.

I've only been on these forums for about 2 months, and I'm already tired of it. I joined to be able to talk about the game I loved, instead all I see is negativity.

I feel bad for some of the local groups that have to deal with these kinds of people. I'm going to go start my Escalation League with mine that don't complain about the game.

You guys can go ahead and be miserable on your own

You can go.

We aren't whining about you. And frankly, we've been at this for a while.

I'm not intending to be hostile or whatever, but you could start by ignoring the people who really don't like turrets, because you're getting in the way of our fun of complaining about them, OP or not.

Repaints subforum tends to be a fun place to see cool things.

Or lists subforum, it could use a little life. For the odd few of us still trying to make lists.

--

Basically: before judging and telling people off, perhaps listen and look for a while at whats already been said for the last 9 months, since last GenCon when Wave 5 was introduced, or pre-Worlds 2014 with standard Fat Han before Heavers Han.

I agree nobody likes negativity, but we also don't like judgmental people telling us we don't have something to complain about, particularly when you're repeating points that have been discussed to death.

The tankiest build of these, effectively, has the following mitigation pattern:

3+.375(X-1)=M
Where X are the number of attacks you will defend against

and M is the amount of damage you will prevent overall.

The 3 = MF Title Evade token, R2-D2 or Jan Ors + PTL, and C3p0, who is also the reason for the (X-1) rather than a simple (X).

I think when the game becomes 100% unwinnable when there are still ships on the board, then the game is broken. A z95 can still take a range 3 shot on a focused cloaked whisper and deal some damage (something in the 90% range in being unwinnable ). I can understand a Hwk without a turret against a Baron Fel take a horrible run in terms of gameplay. However, when a tiefighter range 1 have no chance at all of doing damage to a fat falcon -without even needing to know anything other than always choose to evade, and avoid the rocks- then there is a problem. I understand that you have to take down the fat falcon fast, or figure a way to deal with it endgame, but a change needs to happen.

Phantoms got nerfed without being near as bad in terms of being "unwinnable"

the best argument I heard for a need to change fat falcons is "what happens if at worlds it becomes fat han vs fat han?".

Paul Heaver was in a Fat Han vs Fat Han situation at I believe US nationals last year, he lost to the R2 build with a Luke build. He changed it up after that I believe.

If it was two R2 3PO builds, and they couldn't kill each other than it goes to initiative. Pretty clear, just like any other draw.

[qu te name=markcsoul" post="166users timestamp="1434865134]It was a pretty close game

Ideally I should have gone for chewie first (which I did initially)

Frankly after Heaver won with that combo (but with han) I'm surprised it took me this long to go against it.

I think I gagged from the pretentiousness. Yay you, you followed the meta and joined the turret users. Let us social rebels that refuse to fly turrets because we enjoy a game of starfighter, not freighter combat continue on our merry way. Posts like yours attacking the super negative people reduce you to their level.

So to answer a few things that came up since my original post.

1) Yes, I was fully aware of what the squad could do, but that still didn't mean my first time against it was something I was looking forward to. I've flown against plenty of fat turrets before, just not the one with the title, 3po, and r2 trio.

2) As someone mentioned above. It's not the turret aspect, or the engine upgrade, or han/chewie's pilot abilities that bother me about fat turrets so much, it's the damage mitigation. When you can fly anywhere you want since you can fire anywhere, and then boost away if needed, do you really need extra help on defense? You already have 13 hit points at 1 agility, that's still a lot to chew through. I expect a ship like fel or whisper to avoid multiple shots because of their high agility and/or actions. But at least you HAVE a chance to hit them, even if bad odds at times. When you have to get AT LEAST 4 hits a round to do any damage, that's just not fun.

3) To add to above, I don't hate flying against turrets per se, decimators are fine, and outriders are fine, although dash can be annoying. It's pretty much just fat falcons that I hate (and many others as well). I'd also add corran with r2-d2 and whisper to that list.

4) This maybe belongs in one of the other fat turret threads, but here's how Id fix fat falcons. First I'd make it that with 3po you have to guess at least 1 so there's some chance involved. Second for r2, I'd maybe flip the ability around. It still works as it reads now, but instead of rolling to see if you fip a damage card, you'd roll to see if you recover a shield. That way you're only getting a shield back 3/8's of the time, which would be more fair I think.

I think when the game becomes 100% unwinnable when there are still ships on the board, then the game is broken. A z95 can still take a range 3 shot on a focused cloaked whisper and deal some damage (something in the 90% range in being unwinnable ). I can understand a Hwk without a turret against a Baron Fel take a horrible run in terms of gameplay. However, when a tiefighter range 1 have no chance at all of doing damage to a fat falcon -without even needing to know anything other than always choose to evade, and avoid the rocks- then there is a problem. I understand that you have to take down the fat falcon fast, or figure a way to deal with it endgame, but a change needs to happen.

Phantoms got nerfed without being near as bad in terms of being "unwinnable"

the best argument I heard for a need to change fat falcons is "what happens if at worlds it becomes fat han vs fat han?".

1000 times this. I cant find a way to justify how a 1v1 situation is just mathematically not winnable. It's just not the spirit of this game.

Like someone said before, I'm fine with PWT, but R2, C3PO and Yssane are just not ok with me.

I guess the simplest way is to forbid that exact combo. It wouldn't be hard to have a faq/tournament rule forbidding that.