Personally, I like the char gen stuff balance. Anybody got any early thoughts for conversion for people who like it randomized?

jh

Emirikol said:

I guess I'm not seeing how every character doesn't just start out with maximized starting wealth, talents, skill specializations, actions and still have 8-13 points left over for characteristic boosts. The only way around that is if GM's ban their players from doing so, or if the players are actively choosing not to?

Every Rat Catcher is as wealthy as a Duke and is already an expert in two skills prior to setting foot out his front door? Sounds more like Batman than Herschel Gotter the rodent chaser...

Easy enough to house rule some graduated cost into the system I suppose but the RAW seem badly out of whack at this point to me on the non-characteristics advances. Not that every character need start out with a knife wound and owing a cartel 10,000 Karls...but being rich should come at a pretty hefty cost to other game mechanics. Same thing can be said for paragonal skill training, super action-isticness, and being super talented.

I guess you'd have to make a percentage system where for example 2 = 20%, then you could start out with 14% instead of 2 and reach 2 when you pass 20% for the one digit characteristics. Only a thought...

And after all I think Jay owes us a session demo video

Early thoughts:

For attributes add a result of:
- rolling d6 dividing the result by 2 and substracting 1 (results 0-2)
- or rolling 2 characteristic dice and counting the number of hammers rolled (results 0-2)

For wealth, skill, talents and actions:
- roll d4 and substract 1 (results 0-3)
- or roll 3 characteristic dice and count the number of hammers (results 0-3)

If you want to further randomize the talents and actions just draw them randomly.

@Edited

This:

Sunatet said:

You could also assign a wealth level to each starting career (i.e. you must be poor if you're a Dockhand) and make the typical trappings from the back of the character sheet compulsory. I know this technically makes things less random, but it reduces the potential of PC's having too much money.

jadrax said:

1D4+1.

I'm not saying it would be good.

Cheers

Sparrow

James Sparrow said:

Callidon said:

Callidon said:

You're quite right that a starting character could do this - - IF they decide they want to be rich, but inept in comparison to their fellows.

I think that characteristics and skills will be fairly important to being successful in tests, so you would take low scores in them at your peril.

ragnar63 said:

You bring up a lot of valid points, and I certainly don't think the system should be tossed out just because it's different. I guess I'm just mulling it all over trying to see what sort of things my weasely friends will pull over on me. So far a lot of v3 seems at least worth a legit test run.

Another thing that players would need to keep in mind is that increased wealth at character creation would not be "Warhammer" proof. Meaning their bank account/fat purse has just as much chance of getting: snatched, robbed, sunk, burned or pointlessly wasted as any one else's cash. Looking at it from that light it wouldn't be fair to sink a ton of customization points into something that becomes an external investment for a character. You can't have your skill points, talents, actions or characteristics taken away (easily at any rate). Riding off in your gilded chariot at the head of a company of well paid mercenaries sounds like a tragedy in the making (or a really fun day of playing if you are the GM). On with the point buy

This is the kind of article that makes me excited about this game. I was rather reticent at first... but am now eating up all the info I can get on this. I can see how this type of character generation could really facilitate roleplaying. Anything that makes roleplaying easier for the players is all right with me.

What makes it easier to roleplay?

The initial thing that I see with spending alot of points not in your characteristics is that it has yet to be mentioned how or even if characteristics can be advanced at all (assuming the careers just dont give them to the character each time). I would hope there are but one can never tell.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Well, with a little imagination you could assign a background (or reason) for each choice made during creation. Why did you choose the skills you did? Why is Agility your highest stat - how did it get that way in relation to your current career? What's the reason behind your current financial state? Etc. Just like any RPG. Of course you could simply ignore it, like most of the extras in this game, if it doesn't fit into your game play style.

I'm still of a mind that a talented GM and a table of descent players could do a lot with this system. I'm really looking forward to putting it though its paces.

I suspect that you may be able to raise your characteristics in later careers, but again by only one level per career, and only in the two characteristics, listed on the relevent career. This would cost you the same XP as it would points in character creation. So raising a characteristic from 2 to 3 would be quite expensive in XP, and would be worse with each subsequent level of characteristic. Maybe you may be able to raise a characteristic not relevent to your career, but it would cost double. I can certainly see the possibilities if they are along these lines, and would also make careful choices at character creation, much more important.

NezziR said:

Not to be a pain, but honestly, as you said, that is the same with any RPG. Making up background tidbits for why your character has or can do something has been around since RPGs first came about. This new 3E for WFRP hasnt provided any special rule, insight or breakthrough that alters the ease of Role Playing.

The only thing that makes it easier to role play is a players experience with games, his or her natural aptitude at role playing and the intereaction and energy amongst the players in the party. Ive seen extraordinary role playing in overly complex rule heavy games (such as RoleMaster) and sloppy roleplaying in simpler games. I find it difficult to believe that any one system is easier to role play in then others.

So far all Ive seen is the replacing of rolling and charts with spending and cards.

Again, its nothing against point based systems (DC Heroes from Mayfair is one of my all time favorite games) but it doesnt seem so warhammery to me to be able to decide exact faucets of your character. You choose a Dwarf character hoping to be a decent fighter knowing you have a edge on WS and S and hope for a militant career to help out being a combatant and so forth. Just seems that you wont havemuch variety on this scale either and most "warriors" will look similar as most rogues will also be copies or close clones.

Again, guess Ill have to wait and see.

When I introduced WFRPv2 to a group of relatively new RP'ers, there was almost universal disappointment after character gen - not a good way to start off the game. The hunter had a worse BS than the student, but also had better toughness than the slayer. Now, while an experienced group of RP'ers might think this is an awesome and quirky situation and jump right in, for newer groups, (and a lot of other people, IMO) this was just lame.

It's not like it's unreasonable to wonder why the guy had gotten into a career which relies on using a bow when A) he sucks at it and B) he's actually decent at doing something else. Why wouldn't he have become a moderately successful soldier/thug/etc. rather than a crappy starving hunter?

It's also not much fun for a lot of people when they never survive long enough for their character to be/learn/do something "cool." My players now ridicule v2. I started mentioning the cliff climbing example as to how the new rolls work in v3. One of them said, "Let me guess, you roll and then fail, fall of the cliff onto your backup character, killing them both in the process?"

The random generation makes even less sense to me in Dark Heresy. Why the hell would an Inquisitor, who can choose whoever he wants from untold millions, pick a stupid savant, or a weak soldier?

I think the new system is much better. It allows people more leeway to do what they want with their character. So my players can make people that are actually decent at what they do, and Mr. Super Roleplayer can still make an archer that sucks at shooting.

NewTroski said:

This is awesome.

"Mr. Super Roleplayer" is, like, the direct polar opposite of a "Munchkin player".

Yeah, so far I don't see anything in this system that would prevent a player from being able to create an inept schlub.

I suppose that a player could ask his GM to give him LESS creation points.

Peacekeeper_b said:

The difference is that with this system you get to choose what characteristics the PC will have, as opposed to them being forced on you randomly. If you want to play a charismatic ratcatcher, you spend points to increase his Fel. If you want to play an Intelligent Trollslayer, you bump up his starting Int. Many players find it easier to roleplay characters they created themselves - they have a mental image of what the character is like and assign stats appropriately. Some players gain inspiration from a random gen, an unusual combination of stats giving them interesting character hooks, but other players find it difficult to turn a set of numbers into a character instead of turning a character into a set of numbers.

NewTroski said:

NewTroski said:

Have to disagreee, not with your experiences, but with the overall tone here. I find (and so do most palyers Ive played V1 or V2 with) that WFRP 1E and 2E characters are more versatil and have greater potential then most other RPGs. You have a progression that is logical, followers careers and is developed largely by choice (i.e. you pick the advance you buy next from a list of available advances, and get one on the average of 1 or 2 per adventure).

NewTroski said:

Very unreasonable or at least unimaginative. First, he could be from a culture/village that makes its living by hunting, therefore he had no real choice on how his ma and pa raised him. And then, perhaps that is why he has now left his village, as he was unable to keep up his share of responsibility and has either been forced out or left to find his own way. Currently he is a hunter, but for 200XP (1 or 2 adventures on average) he can become any basic career he wants, including Thug or Soldier.

NewTroski said:

Never really seen many people die or not survive long enough to do something cool. Thats a role play aspect. Skills and rolls are modified by situations, characteristics, equipment, skill and luck as the GM and to some extent PC sees fit. A good GM will take things into account for bonuses and penalties on skills and other tests to have the event make sense and with enough creativity and proper drama decide and describe how epic, minor, or forgetful a success or failure is based on the degree of failure or success.

NewTroski said:

Because that is what is available at the moment.

NewTroski said:

It also allows PCs to munchkin up too easily or to have spent their points wrong and regret it, but are just as stuck as if they rolled poorly. But Im not against a point buy system if it is properly balanced and what not.

But your Hunter against Student with BS differences is intriguing. But to me that can provide emphasis, character, background, flavor and drama for a character to role play and develope. And it doesnt take long. Let us say for example that you are a human with BS 22 (lowest you can start with) and you get Hunter. Well, you can get Marksman (+5% to BS) to start yoru career off and then take you free advance as BS +5%. So you start with a 32%. Still not great, but you can get up to 205XP for surviving Through the Drakwald which allows you to buy your next two advances for BS (max for Hunter is +15%), and all of the sudden you are at BS 42 after one adventure. With Specialist Weapon Longbow and Rapid Reload you can do things with the Longbow no mere student can, like fire once per round at full BS. If you use the old V1 rule of roling on career chart based on Career Classes (ie Warrior, Ranger, Rogue, Academic, et al) then you have to have a BS of 30 to roll a Ranger Career (which is where Hunter is), meaning that aforementioned BS22 Hunter starts at BS 30 and winds up at BS 50 after one or two adventures.

Works even better if you move the Shaylla's Mercy rule to after you roll career. (Which is essentially a post-reactive action version of rolling by Career Classes) in which case the starting BS if 31.

Sure after the first few adventures the PC Hunter has a stall in his BS improvements as he focusese on the other 8 profile advances he must purchase before crossing over to the Targeteer Career and becoming a hell of a shot after a meager 1000-1200XP (6-12 Adventures).

Now all signs indicate you can do the same with the new game, but the scale, to me, is much smaller and therefore easier to either be the best or be the worst all the while not adding much diversity or variety between two characters of similar careers.

To other statements about low Trollslayer T scores or low Student Int scores, well not all Trollslayers start out tough, they shart out shamed and looking to regain lost face and honor by dying fighting foes (seems a easier job if you T is low LOL) and not all students are geniuses. In fact a stupid student may prove very fun to play as he A) gains more INT and int based skills with experience or B) finds himself going to another career to escape his boring books.

Remember character generation, in general, creates characters at the beginning of thier careers and lives. This is Jams Bond while he is a freshman in college or Conan while still a slave. After a few adventures (or some extra starting XP) they develope into Pit Fighters and Junior Agents and after a few years adventuring/getting experience become Super Agents and Barbarian Lords.

However, Point Based cargen can represent characters who are int he midst of their careers and not starting out, which has its advantages. But doesnt seem to be how a final character under 3E turns out.

But to bring this to an end, nothing here adds more roleplay opportunities or easess role playing any more then any other game.

Peacekeeper_b said:

On the contrary, the new system provides for far greater variety between two characters with the same career than v2 did. In v2 characters with the same race and career were almost identical. They had the same advances, the same skills and the same talents. The small differences in their attributes were usually so small as to be meaningless - there really wasn't a great difference between a hunter with a BS of 28 vs 33 and a Int of 35 vs 29 etc. v3, on the other hand, results in different characters because there is a greater variety of choices available to the player. Starting characters may have a different spread of points spent on attributes, wealth, talents, skills and actions. As they advance, they don't have to take the same advances (unlike in v2), because they only take 10 (IIRC) before leaving the career. One may focus on bringing up BS and archery related talents etc, while the other focuses on survival skills, attributes and abilities.

macd21 said:

And in 2E at any time a character can jump to ANY basic career for 200XP and can use any previous career exit at any time for 100XP, so no, not all 2E characters are the same. A beginning hunter can at his desire spend 200XP and become an apprentice wizard and start collecting a new batch of skills, talents and advances.

Each game is what you make of it by actually reading and understanding the rules. Which, I cant do yet with 3E.

Peacekeeper_b said:

In 3E a character can spend some xp to jump to another career. In 3E two characters who remain in the same career actually have a varied range of choices when it comes to spending their xp, instead of buying the exact same advances. In 2E a pair of soldiers who'd completed their careers were almost clones. In 3E they can be completely different.

Spumis said:

Agreed!! thats why all my guys wana play thing now, We all did DnD and WFRP will make things much more like a ROLEplay session and not WoW