I originally posted this on another forum, but I want it here on FFG's forums as well.

TITLE OF THREAD SHOULD READ TIE ADVANCED AND TIE PHANTOM

Being a fan of the OT ships over the EU ones (although some EU ships are pretty sexy) I Always intended to use as many OT ships in my squads as I can without handicapping myself too much. I also lean more towards the Imperial ships over the Rebels. One squad I was looking forward to building was a Tie Swarm led by a Tie Advanced. It's iconic, sleek and really has nothing similar to it in the Imperial fleet. And of course it's Vader's ship. I don't know the nuances of the games well enough to understand all of the card combos that can impede or enhance the quality of the ship. So I'm curious as to why people think this is a sub-par ship and not worth fielding in lieu of other choices. What's more confusing to me however is how the Imperial Raider is supposed to help beef up the Tie Advanced. Is it through upgrade cards, a new card or changes to the core rules? Also I've heard that the Tie Phantom is getting nerfed somewhat by this same expansion pack. Again, how are they planning to do this? Is this sort of thing common with the X-Wing game or is this the first time FFG have revised major rules for existing ships through expansions?

*Warning, half-cocked Newbie Rant*

At first I thought the expansions were a great idea that merely added rules to their new respective ships and still kept within the parameters of the core rules. Then I found out that the cards in the expansions aren't always specific to those ships contained within but are useful, sometimes downright necessary, for other ships in the game. Very clever money making tactic. I'm not familiar with collectable card games but I see that FFG are and they are using it to broaden the appeal of expansions that wouldn't normally sell as well as some of the more popular and/or essential ones. Case in point; put two much needed fixes to ships that are a staple to their factions (T-A and T-I) and load them up in one of the biggest most expensive expansions in the game. That's dirty pool and from what I understand it's not the first time they've done this. The Rebel Aces expansion contained cards that are tailored made for the Imperial Aces/Interceptors. The Rebel troop transport contains highly sought after cards for their basic ships for players who care nothing for the ship itself. I could care less about the Scum and Villainy faction, nothing really wrong with it, cool looking ships, just not my vision of Star Wars. However I have to buy a StarViper to get upgrade cards for my Interceptors or go through a third party?!

And now back to the cheekiest packaging of them all: The Imperial Raider. All I know is that if I want to use a Tie Advanced or a Tie Phantom I have to buy this expansion. Are you kidding me?! FFG couldn't have released a 5 page supplement with a couple of cards included to solve this problem? These people make their bread and butter off card game supplements! It wouldn't have taken them anytime to whip something together for all of the players out there who have absolutely zero interest in this expansion. Personally I wanted it the first time I saw it. Price be damned and even if I never played a game with it that ship looked so cool it was going on my bookcase. But I don't like being coerced into making decisions and from what I've been reading from the veteran players neither do they.

Sadly this is a familiar feeling for me. I feel like I just stepped back into the world of Games Workshop. And I'm very disappointed.

*Noob Rant over*

We already know exactly the buff that the TIE Advanced are getting

1. A new title; the TIE/x1. With it, you can equip any System upgrade with a 4 point discount. That translates to "Free" for most of them.
2. A new TIE Advanced exclusive System upgrade: 5 points (or 1 point after discount) for an Advanced Targeting Computer. If you have a Target Lock on the defender, and do not spend it, add a [KABLAM] result to your dice pool.
3. More pilots.

*Noob Rant over*

None of that has anything to do with the games rules, so you posted this in the wrong place.

As a newer player, as I am, realize that you are reading forum posts of several groups of people. 1) Really experienced tournament players that have a thriving Local Game Store community with a competitive environment. 2) Trolls. Lots and lots of trolls... cause Forums! 3) Players with more theoretical knowledge than practical experience 4) Others.

Unless you fall into Group 1 (experienced tournamanet players with a competitive FLGS envrironment), the meta game is not that important to you. It is something to be aware of, but you should only drink the koolaid if you are really wanting to be participating regularly in competitive tournaments.

Yes, there are cards in ship packs that help other ships and provide card synergy. This is good and helps us fund a company that makes a game we like. If they made 10 perfect ships and everyone only flew those ships, this game would cease to exist. There has to be consistent regular expansions to keep the company growing so that we can continue to play this game for years to come. No ifs ands or buts about that. And, personally, I want to play this game for a long time to come.

Some of these cards are packaged in large ships. Is it a marketing ploy? Maybe. People will definitely buy them. But, again, unless you are in a very competitive environment where you are playing weekly against a good variety of opponents getting ready for a tournament, you don't necessarily have to buy them. Many people proxy the cards. If you play on Vassal, you don't have to have any of the cards, and can find out how vital one particular card is for your squadron.

Personally, I play with the ships and cards I currently have. Over time, I aim to have a more competitive environment and I may never be a Worlds qualifying regional winner, but I'm still going to have fun. Also, personally, I am going to buy the big ships, because I want to play Epic games with a group of friends... it's just more fun when there are a bunch of us flying ships together and relaxing.

If you enjoy the game, don't sweat the details so much. The koolaid people are going to say you have to have certain things. If you wanna fly Vader with two Black Squadron pilots... go for it and have fun. The dials aren't the best together, but you'll learn how to fly them. In time you may continue this strategy and get better at it, or you may find that you want to see what Soontir Fel does. Fly it Casual and have fun with other people and be glad you aren't glued to a computer screen all the time... though Vassal can mess that up as bad as these forums can.

FYI the Raider has zero effect on the Phantom or Interceptor. The nerf to Phantoms already happened months ago in an FAQ update, not a product.

The only ship being affected directly by the Raider release is the TIE Advanced.

*Noob Rant over*

None of that has anything to do with the games rules, so you posted this in the wrong place.

Well the rant about the way the company packages their product doesn't have anything to do with rules per se. You're right. However knowing how ships and where the rules for the Tie Advanced and Tie Interceptors are being changed most definitely falls within the parameters for "rules discussion." If you disagree and are a mod please move the thread to the forum you feel is more appropriate. If you're not a mod and don't have anything to contribute to the topic I've always found it best to ignore said topic and proceed to find a topic where I can contribute to the conversation. In essence, move along, move along.

Thanks to the members who helped me understand what was happening with those ships.

and as far as I know, the only ship that really needs Rebel Aces' help is the A-wing. one of which comes with the box. (yeah, b-wing pilots and such, but Bs were never underpowered).

similar for the Rebel transport. Some decent pilots for the x-wing that comes with the transport, maybe you could argue r3a2 for the y-wing?

For casual play, proxy. if you get into the tournament scene....there are A) plenty of lists that don't require the raider/corvette and B) that's the cost of tournament play to run those lists.

its really just a couple of ships/cards that this effects. Previous ships have had this problem, but FFG is pretty good about getting high-demand cards out into other packs. Advanced sensors only came with the shuttle, which was expensive. Now it comes with the cheaper e-wing pack. Push the Limit only came with A-wings. now its in the Imperial Aces pack to go with Interceptors. Sometimes FFG may just not realize how important a card is to a specific ship.

Firstly, I fly only imperial craft. I like them more. I identify with Imperials over the other two (lesser) factions.

As an Imperial player I will never fly an Advanced in a tourny setting. Here's why:

Soontir Fel + PtL +Royal Tie+ Stealth device + Shield =37

out of the gates he has all the wonderfulness that makes Fell so scary. 3 fire power 4 agility 3 hull and 1 shield.

On an interceptor dial that makes him very hard to hit and extremely hard hitting

Vader + Marksmanship + munitions failsafe+ cluster missles. = 37

The missles are nice and the double action make him scary but the 2 fire power and much slower dial make him a one trick pony. After those missles are gone he may as well be a slightly stockier TIE fighter.

By comparison Fel loaded to the gills and dangerous. That version of Vader is the only way I could find to maximize the fire power for the same points. Sad.

Or you can field 2 Academy Pilots for the same price and effectivly double the probable fire power and only loose a little durability.

Im hoping that the new xpac for Raider makes the Advanced viable but in a competative setting i'd rather have an Interceptor or a Phantom.

Interceptors aren't being changed at all. I don't know where you got that impression.

its really just a couple of ships/cards that this effects. Previous ships have had this problem, but FFG is pretty good about getting high-demand cards out into other packs. Advanced sensors only came with the shuttle, which was expensive. Now it comes with the cheaper e-wing pack. Push the Limit only came with A-wings. now its in the Imperial Aces pack to go with Interceptors. Sometimes FFG may just not realize how important a card is to a specific ship.

FFG realizes it and does it on purpose. Engine Upgrade has been out since the beginning of 2012, and 4 waves later it's still only on the Falcon. The larger the ship, the larger the 'exclusive' upgrade is. Tantive has C3p0 and R2, the raider has the emperor and the tie adv stuff. Yea it kind of sucks, but its business.

On a relative price scale though, I still find X-wing far cheaper than some of the hobbies of my friends (MTG and WH40k)

and as far as I know, the only ship that really needs Rebel Aces' help is the A-wing. if you get into the tournament scene....there are A) plenty of lists that don't require the raider/corvette and B) that's the cost of tournament play to run those lists.

You're right I was confused about the Imperial aces and their "Push the Limit" cards. I had believed them to be in the Rebel Aces pack. As far as tournament play I won't be attending any tournaments but the store that I will be playing at will be complete hard-asses about everything. Fly Casual goes out the window there and tournament rules will be used for even impromptu pick up games. I know from experience.

Tybalt you've seen the new rules for the Tie Advanced I assume? Do you still feel that the Fel build you have is superior to the new version of the Tie Advanced?

However knowing how ships and where the rules for the Tie Advanced and Tie Interceptors are being changed...

Interceptors aren't being changed at all. I don't know where you got that impression.

I meant the Phantom. My apologies..

Soontir Fel - 36pts - Push the Limit, Auto Thrusters, Shield Upgrade

Darth Vader - 37pts - Predator, Engine Upgrade, x1 Title, Advanced Targeting Computer

Whisper - 37pts - Veteran Instincts, Advanced Cloaking Device

I would reckon each one of those is very deadly in their own way. Whisper really wants to be 39pts with FCS, Vader is exactly where he wants to be, and Fel might even be better at 35 with Stealth Device (note, I've never run the math on SD+AT to know whether or not it's better than SU/HU, but my intuition says against turrets it is, and against anything else, he doesn't need to roll greens!). Each one of these PS9 pilots is viable and is going to make Wave 6.5 crazy.

Malakai1939: I've seen new pilots, and new upgrades but I'm not aware of rules changes. They dont seem complicated enough to warrent clarification or change. However, if I'm missing something let me know.

I really want the T-A to be as scary as it's movie reputation leads it to be, but in it's current form it just isnt.

As a faction the Imperials are defined by two historic strategies: Numbers or the advantage of better tech bringing higher fire power down range.

The T-A violates both of those ideas. It has low fire power and it's expensive. The new upgrades temper this some what but we will see. I personally think the T-A will go the way of the Defender.

Soontir Fel - 36pts - Push the Limit, Auto Thrusters, Shield Upgrade

Darth Vader - 37pts - Predator, Engine Upgrade, x1 Title, Advanced Targeting Computer

Whisper - 37pts - Veteran Instincts, Advanced Cloaking Device

I would reckon each one of those is very deadly in their own way. Whisper really wants to be 39pts with FCS, Vader is exactly where he wants to be, and Fel might even be better at 35 with Stealth Device (note, I've never run the math on SD+AT to know whether or not it's better than SU/HU, but my intuition says against turrets it is, and against anything else, he doesn't need to roll greens!). Each one of these PS9 pilots is viable and is going to make Wave 6.5 crazy.

A nice 110 point list, i like it .....

I'm impressed with the subtle passive-agressive level in this entire thread.

Well played.

However knowing how ships and where the rules for the Tie Advanced and Tie Interceptors are being changed...

Interceptors aren't being changed at all. I don't know where you got that impression.

I meant the Phantom. My apologies..

Phantom change is

A/ old news.

B/ on the faq, didn't cost anyone a penny.

C/ hasn't really changed it that much, it's still lethal.

However knowing how ships and where the rules for the Tie Advanced and Tie Interceptors are being changed...

Interceptors aren't being changed at all. I don't know where you got that impression.

I meant the Phantom. My apologies..

Phantom change is

A/ old news.

B/ on the faq, didn't cost anyone a penny.

C/ hasn't really changed it that much, it's still lethal.

Still lethal, still potent, just not omnipotent.

They kept its mobility, and nerfed its arc-dodge, allowing not-turrets the ability to track it down if predicted correctly.

That 2-distance Barrel-Roll as an arc-dodge mechanic? Untouchable.

However knowing how ships and where the rules for the Tie Advanced and Tie Interceptors are being changed...

Interceptors aren't being changed at all. I don't know where you got that impression.

I meant the Phantom. My apologies..

Phantom change is

A/ old news.

B/ on the faq, didn't cost anyone a penny.

C/ hasn't really changed it that much, it's still lethal.

Yeah, thing is

A. I'm new

B. FAQ huh? Well you have me there. It was actual laziness on my part not to check it before asking. However, the Phantom wasn't the only ship I spoke about. I get the feeling that this is a touchy subject with X-Wing gamers, sorta like price hikes are to GW players, so I'm just going to drop it.

C. Good. Not a fan of the EU much. The Rebel EU ships don't look nearly as cool as the Imperial ones. And the Phantom is as awesome as they come. At least by EU (Legends) standards. After I am more experienced with the game I plan on building several squads around one.

However knowing how ships and where the rules for the Tie Advanced and Tie Interceptors are being changed...

Interceptors aren't being changed at all. I don't know where you got that impression.

I meant the Phantom. My apologies..

Phantom change is

A/ old news.

B/ on the faq, didn't cost anyone a penny.

C/ hasn't really changed it that much, it's still lethal.

Yeah, thing is

A. I'm new

B. FAQ huh? Well you have me there. It was actual laziness on my part not to check it before asking. However, the Phantom wasn't the only ship I spoke about. I get the feeling that this is a touchy subject with X-Wing gamers, sorta like price hikes are to GW players, so I'm just going to drop it.

Being new is a great and wonderful thing, and we should foster you for it

However, the 'touchy' bit isn't what you talked about, but rather how you talked about it.

You presented with a whole lot of anger in that rant, so we're naturally going to feel a bit defensive.

Ignoring things like the FAQ (a shorter read than the Rulebook) makes it easier to dismiss you, and make us want to defend ourselves even more strongly.

I recommend taking a breath, and confirming the facts first, and THEN posting.

But yes, FFG have gone on the record as saying they're never going to put out a cards-only expansion. There will always be a ship, and sometimes those ships will be Epic.

However, this game at its most expensive is on the dollar point that most miniatures games create for a minimum viable competitive fleet.

Some folks will grouse that the TIE Advanced is unplayable without the Raider's cards, but there are some folks who are buying the Raider simply for epic, and want nothing to do with the TIE/x1, and will be willing to split their expansions after-market.

Most of us will allow proxied cards in all but the official tournaments anyway, making the actual ships that the cards ship with irrelevant.

Soontir Fel - 36pts - Push the Limit, Auto Thrusters, Shield Upgrade

Darth Vader - 37pts - Predator, Engine Upgrade, x1 Title, Advanced Targeting Computer

Whisper - 37pts - Veteran Instincts, Advanced Cloaking Device

I would reckon each one of those is very deadly in their own way. Whisper really wants to be 39pts with FCS, Vader is exactly where he wants to be, and Fel might even be better at 35 with Stealth Device (note, I've never run the math on SD+AT to know whether or not it's better than SU/HU, but my intuition says against turrets it is, and against anything else, he doesn't need to roll greens!). Each one of these PS9 pilots is viable and is going to make Wave 6.5 crazy.

A nice 110 point list, i like it .....

I was responding to Tybalt's build with Vader w/ Marks and not being that scary for the same 37 pts as Fel. So I was comparing 37pt builds for the 3 Aces in the Imperial fleet, not making a list including all three. To do that you have to drop EU, AT and SU (or Predator instead of EU and downgrade SU to SD or HU). Still pretty potent list though.

Honestly, they fould cross their arms and say "the game is what it is". At least they care enough to try and rebalance. Honestly, they dont have to include another ship with the epic ships. We'd all biy them on their own, but getting new pilots and bread life into certain ships is an awesome bonus.

Oh yeah, all of my previous comments aside, I still bought the ship. The lore of it alone made certian I was going to buy it.

The way this game works is the more ships/upgrades you have, the more options and variations you can field. Regardless of how they package them, that has been the way of all mini games. As has been stated already, Xwing mini, being prepainted and ready to roll right out of the box is many times cheaper than other mini games in terms of both time and money.

Try fielding an army of Orks like I did.....they money I paid for the actualy figures was nothing compared to the time and money I put in painting the things. I can field an honest to goodness Green Tide which makes other 40k players cringe for a lot of reasons lol.

*shrug*
I have no problem with how FFG markets things. I expect it honestly. I'll keep buying and playing.

And there's always E-Bay if you're looking for specific upgrade and pilot cards/cardboard base inserts.