Talonbane Cobra is 28 points, PS 9, and has a great ability -- in my mind, he's fairly analogous to Wedge. Based on that, I would guess that FFG will price the generic at 20 or even 19 points, and I can see it getting a fair amount of use if that's the case (at least until Scum gets a better 20-some point ship). The options will be warthogs for 23 to 25 points, or the Khiraxz for 20(ish) -- I could definitely see people playing the Khiraxz under those conditions, since you're saving three to five points. If we get a 21 or even 22 point Scum ship with three attack dice, though, I would expect the Khiraxz to die off pretty quickly in favor of that (as the X-Wing died off to the B-Wing).

Well, a 19 point generic would see five of them with dampeners in a squad, so i'm thinking 20. Maybe 21 just to piss everyone off.

The poor B-wing is just doing its best to be viable while the X-wing was proven mathematically inefficient to the tie fighter (wave 0). The X-wing is a jouster that can't joust nor can it really survive HLC shots at all reliably (apart from a few still useful characters); its inability to perform competitively has nothing to do with the B-wing.

The X-Wing was used plenty before the B-Wing came out, and even in the Wave 3 meta; it filled a nice niche. In this meta, though, there are a bunch of four-attack ships, so the B-Wing is quite a bit better; but if the B-Wing weren't around, we'd likely see some more X-Wings, since there's no other ship in that price range. The X-Wing was never very points-efficient, but it was the least worst option, so people took it. The same could happen with the Khiraxz; it'll just die off when Scum gets a better ship in that price range.

Talonbane Cobra is 28 points, PS 9, and has a great ability -- in my mind, he's fairly analogous to Wedge. Based on that, I would guess that FFG will price the generic at 20 or even 19 points, and I can see it getting a fair amount of use if that's the case (at least until Scum gets a better 20-some point ship). The options will be warthogs for 23 to 25 points, or the Khiraxz for 20(ish) -- I could definitely see people playing the Khiraxz under those conditions, since you're saving three to five points. If we get a 21 or even 22 point Scum ship with three attack dice, though, I would expect the Khiraxz to die off pretty quickly in favor of that (as the X-Wing died off to the B-Wing).

Well, a 19 point generic would see five of them with dampeners in a squad, so i'm thinking 20. Maybe 21 just to piss everyone off.

See, I think that would be a pretty cool squad, and I don't think it would be overpowering considering that they're all just glass cannons. You could almost certainly take out one or even two before they had the chance to use their dampeners, which means that those points were wasted for your opponent. It's like 4BZ, but trades a lot of durability for another three-dice attack.

Talonbane Cobra is 28 points, PS 9, and has a great ability -- in my mind, he's fairly analogous to Wedge. Based on that, I would guess that FFG will price the generic at 20 or even 19 points, and I can see it getting a fair amount of use if that's the case (at least until Scum gets a better 20-some point ship). The options will be warthogs for 23 to 25 points, or the Khiraxz for 20(ish) -- I could definitely see people playing the Khiraxz under those conditions, since you're saving three to five points. If we get a 21 or even 22 point Scum ship with three attack dice, though, I would expect the Khiraxz to die off pretty quickly in favor of that (as the X-Wing died off to the B-Wing).

Well, a 19 point generic would see five of them with dampeners in a squad, so i'm thinking 20. Maybe 21 just to piss everyone off.

Actually I'm not sure that's so terrible because ID is much less effective at low pilot skill. The thing that it gives the best advantage against would be other low PS swarms, and BBBBZ could use a better joust focused counter. Dodgers can tear it up, but one mistake and you're toast. Based on the PS and Talons cost, I'd say 19 isn't likely, but isn't out if the question. We know Scum pays a premium for its PS, though, so like I said, probably unlikely but certainly possible.

The poor B-wing is just doing its best to be viable while the X-wing was proven mathematically inefficient to the tie fighter (wave 0). The X-wing is a jouster that can't joust nor can it really survive HLC shots at all reliably (apart from a few still useful characters); its inability to perform competitively has nothing to do with the B-wing.

The X-Wing was used plenty before the B-Wing came out, and even in the Wave 3 meta; it filled a nice niche. In this meta, though, there are a bunch of four-attack ships, so the B-Wing is quite a bit better; but if the B-Wing weren't around, we'd likely see some more X-Wings, since there's no other ship in that price range. The X-Wing was never very points-efficient, but it was the least worst option, so people took it. The same could happen with the Khiraxz; it'll just die off when Scum gets a better ship in that price range.

Talonbane Cobra is 28 points, PS 9, and has a great ability -- in my mind, he's fairly analogous to Wedge. Based on that, I would guess that FFG will price the generic at 20 or even 19 points, and I can see it getting a fair amount of use if that's the case (at least until Scum gets a better 20-some point ship). The options will be warthogs for 23 to 25 points, or the Khiraxz for 20(ish) -- I could definitely see people playing the Khiraxz under those conditions, since you're saving three to five points. If we get a 21 or even 22 point Scum ship with three attack dice, though, I would expect the Khiraxz to die off pretty quickly in favor of that (as the X-Wing died off to the B-Wing).

Well, a 19 point generic would see five of them with dampeners in a squad, so i'm thinking 20. Maybe 21 just to piss everyone off.

See, I think that would be a pretty cool squad, and I don't think it would be overpowering considering that they're all just glass cannons. You could almost certainly take out one or even two before they had the chance to use their dampeners, which means that those points were wasted for your opponent. It's like 4BZ, but trades a lot of durability for another three-dice attack.

Talonbane Cobra is 28 points, PS 9, and has a great ability -- in my mind, he's fairly analogous to Wedge. Based on that, I would guess that FFG will price the generic at 20 or even 19 points, and I can see it getting a fair amount of use if that's the case (at least until Scum gets a better 20-some point ship). The options will be warthogs for 23 to 25 points, or the Khiraxz for 20(ish) -- I could definitely see people playing the Khiraxz under those conditions, since you're saving three to five points. If we get a 21 or even 22 point Scum ship with three attack dice, though, I would expect the Khiraxz to die off pretty quickly in favor of that (as the X-Wing died off to the B-Wing).

Well, a 19 point generic would see five of them with dampeners in a squad, so i'm thinking 20. Maybe 21 just to piss everyone off.

Actually I'm not sure that's so terrible because ID is much less effective at low pilot skill. The thing that it gives the best advantage against would be other low PS swarms, and BBBBZ could use a better joust focused counter. Dodgers can tear it up, but one mistake and you're toast. Based on the PS and Talons cost, I'd say 19 isn't likely, but isn't out if the question. We know Scum pays a premium for its PS, though, so like I said, probably unlikely but certainly possible.

Neither of these i thought of. So, 19-20 points. Not 21, as they want you to buy even MORE ships lol.

The poor B-wing is just doing its best to be viable while the X-wing was proven mathematically inefficient to the tie fighter (wave 0). The X-wing is a jouster that can't joust nor can it really survive HLC shots at all reliably (apart from a few still useful characters); its inability to perform competitively has nothing to do with the B-wing.

The X-Wing was used plenty before the B-Wing came out, and even in the Wave 3 meta; it filled a nice niche. In this meta, though, there are a bunch of four-attack ships, so the B-Wing is quite a bit better; but if the B-Wing weren't around, we'd likely see some more X-Wings, since there's no other ship in that price range. The X-Wing was never very points-efficient, but it was the least worst option, so people took it. The same could happen with the Khiraxz; it'll just die off when Scum gets a better ship in that price range.

I'd wager we'd just see more fat turrets, since no Bs mean no BBBBZ and no panic attack. Maybe we'd see more Ys?

the generic Xs are sadly just sh*tty and imo there's no reason to want them to be the only choice

the special K, which has had the opportunity to learn from the X, had better focus on being a good ship rather than getting supplanted by one

fingers crossed for the preview

If it has the X-wing dial + a white 1-hard and is 20/19 points, I'd try it out.

Give me a 5-straight, too, and I'm in. Two K-turn speeds would be nice for a jouster, but not essential. 18 points is probably right out, because you could have 5 with Glitterstim, which would be amazing. 19-20 seems reasonable. 21 seems no good unless the dial is just absolutely nuts. I think Glitterstim is going to help these guys a ton, and will be better on them than a lot of Illicit slot upgrades because it activates at the beginning of combat, when you know you've got guns pointed at you. For one turn, you could have Target Lock/Focus attacks, and all defensive rolls with be Focused. Alternatively, you could K-turn and have Focused Attack and Defense rolls for the round.

I think it looks cool, too.

Honestly, I think you are incorrect. I feel that the biggest problem with the X-Wing is not that it's bad, but that it does not compare favorably with the B-Wing for similar cost. Sure it may be ~1 point overcosted but the thing that exacerbates the problem is the B-Wing.

The Khiraxz will not face that problem and fills a couple of gaps that exist in Scum currently. Even if it were 1 point overcosted like the X, I think what it will bring to the table may be worth the slight inefficiency. That said, I assume it will be better in some way, be that cost or dial or whatever. Just saying I'm not sure it has to be.

I don't get this line of argument

The poor B-wing is just doing its best to be viable while the X-wing was proven mathematically inefficient to the tie fighter (wave 0). The X-wing is a jouster that can't joust nor can it really survive HLC shots at all reliably (apart from a few still useful characters); its inability to perform competitively has nothing to do with the B-wing.

Special K over in scum doesn't have a B-wing to compete with, but if it doesn't have something special (glitterstim's good, advanced homing missiles have my fingers crossed, still need to see cost and dial) then the efficient Z-95s and scary warthogs are doing to run right over it.

If it has the X-wing dial + a white 1-hard and is 20/19 points, I'd try it out.

Xwing has something like a 85 or 90% efficiency.

B wing has something like a 104% efficiency. That's a very large difference there. All for 1 point.

With the role it used to play before the B release (20 is point mid fighter) it was cost efficient enough. Esp with other choices in the game being less efficient.

Nowadays we have much more efficient ships and more menacing options like Han who become cost efficient over a long time.

Your reasoning is skipping a lot of logical counters. Try and argue with yourself before you argue with others, often you will see why you need to rethink your position.

Glitterstim on a 2-agility, 5-health ship is meh. Especially if it's a ship that can't get out of arcs. They'll just shoot someone else if you pop glitt and kill that ship the next round.

Glitterstim on a 2-agility, 5-health ship is meh. Especially if it's a ship that can't get out of arcs. They'll just shoot someone else if you pop glitt and kill that ship the next round.

For 2 points I think it's solid. Worst case scenario you pop it on the ship with the most overlapping enemy firing arcs, don't get shot at, then get a Target Lock/Focus shot on something. If the enemy squad divides fire to shoot at something else, or shoots at a ship at longer range, Glitterstim has done a pretty decent job.

Well a lot of things to consider. As for now we don't know the point value. We don't know the dial either. What we do know is that it has rather similar stats to the X-wing and the PS 9 pilot cost the same as the PS 9 X-wing pilot. So to assume that it will fill the same roll as an X-wing is a little premature.

It can be assumed that it will fill the same roll as an X-wing in the new faction however the OP does bring up a good point. It is true that the S&V does not have an X-wing equivalent but in order for S&V to be viable as a faction in competitive play they have to do something that is effective that the other factions can't or take something that another faction can do well but do it better. Right now the only thing that S&V can do is take the Buzzsaw shuttle as a big tanky ship with good maneuverability and great repeating firepower and replace it the with buzzdroids(bro-bots) with big ships with good damage mitigation, exceptional maneuverability and even more repeatable firepower.

It is not know if the Khazak can do that, however many people (especially ones that focus on raw stats) don't take into consideration that the X-wing was purposefully over costed by design. It was originally 20 points but pushed to 21 so that rebel players couldn't field 5 of them. Since we don't know the cost of the Khazak fighter it could have traded in 1 shield for 1 hull and 1 less point (costing 20 instead of 21) allowing you to take 5 of the naked PS-2 builds. Now if that would be a competitive build or not is still something that needs to be seen, one thing for sure if that were the case X-wings will be less common in the competitive scene.

Another thing to consider not just how ships are used but also how the pilots are used. Just because stat wise a generic may be over costed is not the same for all pilots. Biggs is still flown and he is still in an X-wing. The E-wing generics are over-costed but Corran Horn is still a top meta pilot. Dare I say it Cobra Commander (yes I know it is Talonbane) might not be played as an X-wing but may be more played like a Phantom for it can roll 5 red dice at range 1 and roll 4 green dice at range 3. Now it would have to be kitted out with a lot of maneuvering enhancements (i.e. Expert handling, Engine upgrade, inertial dampeners) but you could very much see Whisper 2.0 come out from this, or not.

It is still too soon to say .

At the very least I'll give it a try. Whether or not it will have a role to fill will have to be seen. I prefer my ships to either be able to boost, barrel roll, or have a turret to fit my particular play style. Ships with 0 re positioning abilities are a tough sell to me.

At the very least I'll give it a try. Whether or not it will have a role to fill will have to be seen. I prefer my ships to either be able to boost, barrel roll, or have a turret to fit my particular play style. Ships with 0 re positioning abilities are a tough sell to me.

With cards like EU all ships have re positioning capabilities. The only thing is how useful are those capabilities compared to the 4 extra points. Now on large based ships that re-positioning capability goes miles in improved performance (especially when a ship does not have a K-turn). Also re-positioning works better with higher pilot skill.

So here is my sell, a PS-9 ship that can boost, or barrel roll (and take a stress to lose a target lock) that attacks with 5 red dice at range 1 and defends with 4 red dice at range 3 and has the durability of an X-wing.

Talonbane w/ EU+ expert handeling.

Now really it depends on the dial how maneuverable that ship is.

It is not know if the Khazak can do that, however many people (especially ones that focus on raw stats) don't take into consideration that the X-wing was purposefully over costed by design. It was originally 20 points but pushed to 21 so that rebel players couldn't field 5 of them.

I've seen this said many times, and the argument kinda makes sense, but I've never seen where it was officially posted. Does anyone have a source for this?

I'm guessing the Khashdfhehd will not be below 20 points, just based on the stats, but I think 21 is far more likely, based on the fact that, in general, FFG seems to err on the side of caution when costing things.

As far as usefulness compared to an X-Wing, I'd say droid/Ilicit are about even, and I usually find missiles to be (slightly) more worth the cost than torpedoes, so unless the dial stinks, I think the Kennvbruwfvd will be about as well off. That said, I don't think the named Xs are bad, and the rookies are only just barely too expensive, I'll still fly one now and then.

I am a fan of the B-wing. But with all the X-wing bashing I returned to the X-wing.

It is a fun ship to fly and with the many pilots and astromechs there is more diversity than meets the eye at first glance.

Will the Kyhraxz be able to do the same? Not sure yet.

Talonbane´s ability puts him/her definately on par with Wedge in my book.

Talonbane flanked with two hired guns, each of them with Engine Upgrade, might be fun!

I think the cheapest generic will need to come in at 20 points tips to make it viable. 5 3 attack ships at 100 points will be potent.

The counter argument I'be heard to this is that FFG won't do this as it make te X-wing comparably worse. My counter to this is why would FFG make the same mistake?

I do like the idea of a couple of these guys flanking a YV666.

I think the cheapest generic will need to come in at 20 points tips to make it viable. 5 3 attack ships at 100 points will be potent.

The counter argument I'be heard to this is that FFG won't do this as it make te X-wing comparably worse. My counter to this is why would FFG make the same mistake?

I do like the idea of a couple of these guys flanking a YV666.

Ten Numb with a mangle would wreck this.

Honestly, I think you are incorrect. I feel that the biggest problem with the X-Wing is not that it's bad, but that it does not compare favorably with the B-Wing for similar cost. Sure it may be ~1 point overcosted but the thing that exacerbates the problem is the B-Wing.

The Khiraxz will not face that problem and fills a couple of gaps that exist in Scum currently. Even if it were 1 point overcosted like the X, I think what it will bring to the table may be worth the slight inefficiency. That said, I assume it will be better in some way, be that cost or dial or whatever. Just saying I'm not sure it has to be.

The first part of your reply is as wrong as it gets. It's not the B-Wings fault the X-Wing is bad! Just a logical error.

We need toseean X-Wing buff, not a B-Wing nerf after all!

So yes the X-Wing IS bad unlike you say. It's a ship with no mobility and low defense that is cost ineffective! You can't upgrade it because it is a very easy target for your enemy to farm points off.

And to get back to topic. Unless we see that the Khiraxz is cheaper or gets any magically good upgrades or dials, it will be just as bad and unplayed as the X-Wing. And the pilot ability of Talonbane will not change anything about that. It's good but so are most X-Wing Pilot abilities and it's not enough to get played!

Talonbane will be nice against decimators and yts (if you have any faith in extra green dice ) but all those HLC aggressors and dashes are going to have a field day

Honestly, I think you are incorrect. I feel that the biggest problem with the X-Wing is not that it's bad, but that it does not compare favorably with the B-Wing for similar cost. Sure it may be ~1 point overcosted but the thing that exacerbates the problem is the B-Wing.

The Khiraxz will not face that problem and fills a couple of gaps that exist in Scum currently. Even if it were 1 point overcosted like the X, I think what it will bring to the table may be worth the slight inefficiency. That said, I assume it will be better in some way, be that cost or dial or whatever. Just saying I'm not sure it has to be.

The first part of your reply is as wrong as it gets. It's not the B-Wings fault the X-Wing is bad! Just a logical error.

We need toseean X-Wing buff, not a B-Wing nerf after all!

So yes the X-Wing IS bad unlike you say. It's a ship with no mobility and low defense that is cost ineffective! You can't upgrade it because it is a very easy target for your enemy to farm points off.

And to get back to topic. Unless we see that the Khiraxz is cheaper or gets any magically good upgrades or dials, it will be just as bad and unplayed as the X-Wing. And the pilot ability of Talonbane will not change anything about that. It's good but so are most X-Wing Pilot abilities and it's not enough to get played!

Yes, the X-wing is overcosted, but the fact is, though, that the X-wing saw significantly more play before the B-wing because the rebels didn't have many options at that point value. A Gold Squadron was a tank with low firepower and either a) more expensive with an ion turret, or b) more expensive with a blaster turret that was less reliable. The X-wing was the only real mainline three-attack dice fighter the rebels could field. So, if you have other good ships (Han) or named X-wing pilots and needed some support, the rookie was a decent answer. However, the B-wing is so much better for one more point that it started pushing the X-wing out and the Z finished the job since it meant that there were even more options at a variety of point values.

Right now, Scum is in the same boat to some degree. There are plenty of lists I've built with them where with my last 20 points my choice is between a PS 2 Scyk with a Mangler or a Y-Wing with an AB. I like the former ship and can find some room for it occasionally, but there's too much out there right now that just tears it up in one turn. Y option is, imo, a very solid tank but lacks any long range punch. The Khiraxz, if it comes in at 20 points would be a solid in-between, getting the scum a three dice attack ship that isn't the same kind of tank that the Y is, but it has more resilience than the Scyk.

HWKs can fit a bit into that hole as well. HWK with Ion is 21, HWK with Blaster and Recon Spec is 23.

Nowhere as tank as a y-wing, though.

Horrible dial but at least they don't care about facing.

And when the TLT comes out, Gives them a decent option at 22 where the dial won't be as obnoxious but still restrictive.

Just going by FFG's track record for the last several waves, you may be right, but we really have no idea until it gets spoiled. Here is all we know so far: with a 3/2/4/1 statline, I can predict that it is worth 17.9 points in dice at PS1. The generic pilot is PS2, so we can compute the jousting efficiency at different possible costs. Total predicted cost of course is unknown until we see the dial, but for now I'll treat it as having the same dial as an X-wing, and the illicit slot granting another 3% overall combat utility (which only translates into ~1.5% overall value due to the square root relationship). That yields:

PS 1 jousting value: 17.9 points

Total predicted value @ PS2 with X-wing dial + illicit: 18.7.

Corresponding jousting efficiency at various potential costs (this at least we CAN be sure of):

PS2 @ 19 points: 98.1%

PS2 @ 20 points: 93.2%

PS2 @ 21 points: 88.8% (edit - typo)

19 points would be spot-on if the dial is similar to the X-wing. 20 points would probably be a little overcosted, and 21 points would be obsolete. That could change slightly if the dial ends up being more like the StarViper's, but it can only move the needle so much on a low PS generic pilot.

The named PS9 costs 28 points vs Wedge at 29 points, so maybe they're all 1 point cheaper across the board than their X-wing counterparts. Pure speculation, don't know. If they do make it 19 or 20 points, then you could field 5 of them in a squad, and that will provide some really good forward-looking data on what they might do with the X-wing eventually.

Xwing has something like a 85 or 90% efficiency.

B wing has something like a 104% efficiency. That's a very large difference there. All for 1 point.

FYI the B-wing's pure jousting stat line efficiency numbers are not quite that drastic. Those numbers also look like they were from MathWing 1.0, and are based on the "total predicted cost". The B-wing took a minor durability hit in MathWing 2.0 when I started calculating durability by actual shots-to-kill. For more updated numbers you can see here:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/128417-mathwing-comprehensive-ship-jousting-values-and-more/

There the X-wing is at 88.3% jousting efficiency, with a total predicted cost of 18.4 (vs 21).

The B-wing is at 92.7% efficiency, with a total predicted cost of 21.1 (vs 22).

I have some further minor tweaks in MathWing 2.5 (not published yet) that has a few minor coefficient tweaks and grants a small boost to all 3+ attack ships across the board (which was a minor error in MathWing 2.0 but was largely a negligible difference). So here's the more "up to date" numbers, although these are still based on a wave 4 meta mix of ship stat lines.

X-wing: 89.7% jousting efficient, 18.6 point prediction.

B-wing: 94.2% jousting efficient, 21.4 point prediction.

My personal take on this, is that the B-wing's 22 point cost is right where it should be. 21 points would be too low (even without comparing it to the X-wing), 23 points would certainly be too high, and we can't do half points so 22 is perfect. The model predicts that the B-wing is overcosted but only by about 2%, which is essentially within the noise and almost too small of a number to test a hypothesis against. Making empirical measurements to predict ship cost accurately within 1% - 2% is probably even harder than making a model to predict value, at least for the generics that are more or less a known quantity.

we'll just count that 1%/2% as the barrel-roll tax

it's not even funny how much of a better ship the B-wing is, not in terms of raw stats but in terms of variety. Just have the b-roll naked makes it far more flexible despite the dial constraints, and that's not even getting into the wealth of builds you can make with the system, cannon, and crew (mod) slots. It's not just better value, it's better designed by a FFG who knew better what they were doing later in the game's development.

Basically, the generic X has to get on the generic B's level. The Special K will have no excuse if it fails to meet standards of viability in scum, coming out so late in the game.

and if it does not, oh well. The YV-666 will carry scum through wave 7

Honestly, the problem the X-wing has (ignoring the whole B-wing just costs 1 more issue) is the fact that it has no post dial movements. No boost and no barrel roll. The lack of these mechanics on a non-turret ship is just too cumbersome.

Honestly, the problem the X-wing has (ignoring the whole B-wing just costs 1 more issue) is the fact that it has no post dial movements. No boost and no barrel roll. The lack of these mechanics on a non-turret ship is just too cumbersome.

Y-wings also don't have that but they've won at least one regional in the turret heavy meta.

Honestly, the problem the X-wing has (ignoring the whole B-wing just costs 1 more issue) is the fact that it has no post dial movements. No boost and no barrel roll. The lack of these mechanics on a non-turret ship is just too cumbersome.

If that were true, then the PS1 TIE Interceptor would be viable. The TIE Interceptor has basically the same jousting efficiency as the X-wing (it's actually a hair better), and it has boost, and barrel roll, and a better dial. And it is still not competitively viable.

The irrefutable truth is, there are no low PS generic ships in the game that have similar to the X-wing's jousting efficiency but are viable because they have boost and barrel roll. And conversely, we have direct evidence from the TIE Interceptor that even if you added boost and barrel roll to the X-wing it would still not be viable.

Side note - last time I made this statement someone completely missed the point of it, and proceeded on an illogical rant about how my analysis has been destroying the game.

Honestly, the problem the X-wing has (ignoring the whole B-wing just costs 1 more issue) is the fact that it has no post dial movements. No boost and no barrel roll. The lack of these mechanics on a non-turret ship is just too cumbersome.

Y-wings also don't have that but they've won at least one regional in the turret heavy meta.

BTL-A4 brings something else to the table completely: reasonable cost efficiency and the ion effect. I need to update my numbers to back out the ion effect from the jousting efficiency, but basically it is just a little better than the X-wing. Then you get the Ion effect for "free" compared to the X-wing - that's not a hard choice to see which is better.