So as of right now, both the cardboard and acrylic third party templates are legal to use for play. This makes sense, seeing as the core set only comes with the cardboard ones.

However, it's been proven that the cardboard warps over time. Shouldn't there be a better standard when it comes to competitive play, such as Regionals and Nationals and such?

Maybe the warping of the cardboard is small enough to be a non-issue. What do you think?

So as of right now, both the cardboard and acrylic third party templates are legal to use for play. This makes sense, seeing as the core set only comes with the cardboard ones.

However, it's been proven that the cardboard warps over time. Shouldn't there be a better standard when it comes to competitive play, such as Regionals and Nationals and such?

Maybe the warping of the cardboard is small enough to be a non-issue. What do you think?

Unless ffg starts including those in core sets you can't require them.

Elitist first world problems!

I guess I need to win me some nice gold plated templates next time they show up at a store tourney.

Seriously tho Core Set 2.0 could use some sturdier templates as well as a slight redesign on the dials (including a thin plastic washer between he cardboard makes a lot of difference)

No. Requiring acrylics excludes players, simple as that. Plus, as long as a player is using the same templates for the whole game, any inaccuracies have an equal chance of helping him out or biting him in the a**; over time, I figure it'll even out. And let's be honest: most of the Top of the Top players will have acrylics anyway (either from winning tourneys or from the lure of the new shiny). I don't think anything needs to change.

Yeah, I think in the rules it mentions that it doesn't matter what type of templates you use, just as long as players have access to what the other player is using.

I think it would be cool...but, most people don't like other people using their templates. Gamers are scientific superstitious about their dice, so I can see something similar happening with their templates.

Conversely, I could see two players getting into ****-swinging contests over whose templates they're going to use, especially if they're the kind you have to win.

What about the straight from the Amazon wood templates? Those should be standard just because.

I still use the cardboard templates that came in my first core set. I like them and they remind me of my first few games when I played rules wayyyy wrong.

Elitist first world problems!

No. Requiring acrylics excludes players, simple as that. Plus, as long as a player is using the same templates for the whole game, any inaccuracies have an equal chance of helping him out or biting him in the a**; over time, I figure it'll even out. And let's be honest: most of the Top of the Top players will have acrylics anyway (either from winning tourneys or from the lure of the new shiny). I don't think anything needs to change.

With that line of thinking, though, that means that those illegal Attack Wing bases that aren't exactly the same dimension as your opponents bases means that you are moving at a different rate than them.

Same with the templates.

If you aren't moving the same way, then it should be illegal...right?

Same with the templates.

If you aren't moving the same way, then it should be illegal...right?

You're assuming the cardboard templates are all the same. Lineup some banks on top of each other and they'll all vary a mm or two.

Anyways, the tourney rules actually stipulate that 1 set should be used for both players.... but no one seems to follow that. But I don't think it really matters that much anyways. The distance variance in a template is still significantly lower than the variance in just hand moving ships or even slight bumps.

Now what I do wish FFG would do is release actual dimensions of the templates so 3rd party manufactures can at least be consistent with each other.....

No. Requiring acrylics excludes players, simple as that. Plus, as long as a player is using the same templates for the whole game, any inaccuracies have an equal chance of helping him out or biting him in the a**; over time, I figure it'll even out. And let's be honest: most of the Top of the Top players will have acrylics anyway (either from winning tourneys or from the lure of the new shiny). I don't think anything needs to change.

With that line of thinking, though, that means that those illegal Attack Wing bases that aren't exactly the same dimension as your opponents bases means that you are moving at a different rate than them.

Same with the templates.

If you aren't moving the same way, then it should be illegal...right?

You can't use your opponent's bases, but tournament rules do allow you to use his templates.

Minor variations in the printing process and the existence of third-party products may cause slight disparities in the measurements of some rulers and templates. Before a tournament match begins, any player may request that a single range ruler and/or set of maneuver templates be shared for the duration of the match. Both players must agree on the set of maneuver templates to be used, as well as which side of the range ruler to use. The TO will have the final say in any decision. Third-party tokens may also be used, provided they are clearly recognizable and both players agree to their use.

Acrylic templates can be permanently bent.

Unless FFG starts selling them and preferably starts putting them in cores, this is not a good idea.

Required, no.

But I'd pay cash money for an upgraded FFG X-wing set with all acrylic tokens and templates. There are some nice 3rd party ones, but I've yet to find all sold in a single kit that I'm happy with. The best designs I've seen thus far outside of FFG tournament prizes are Aetherworks, and I haven't looked into whether it is economical to buy them and ship to the US.

So as of right now, both the cardboard and acrylic third party templates are legal to use for play. This makes sense, seeing as the core set only comes with the cardboard ones.

However, it's been proven that the cardboard warps over time. Shouldn't there be a better standard when it comes to competitive play, such as Regionals and Nationals and such?

Maybe the warping of the cardboard is small enough to be a non-issue. What do you think?

Unless ffg starts including those in core sets you can't require them.

They require you to buy four Starvipers if you want to put Autothrusters on your TIE Interceptors. I don't see why they can't require you to buy acrylic templates if you want to enter a tournament.

I know that the "autothrusters only come with Starvipers" thing makes them money and requiring acrylic templates would NOT make them money, but pretending they wouldn't be able to do it because it wouldn't be fair on the players is ridiculous.

Required, no.

But I'd pay cash money for an upgraded FFG X-wing set with all acrylic tokens and templates. There are some nice 3rd party ones, but I've yet to find all sold in a single kit that I'm happy with. The best designs I've seen thus far outside of FFG tournament prizes are Aetherworks, and I haven't looked into whether it is economical to buy them and ship to the US.

Can confirm, I have the Aetherworks stuff and they are lovely

Meh. I just asked opponents if they minded sharing one set of templates. Easy way to ensure we were all doing the same maneuvers.

So as of right now, both the cardboard and acrylic third party templates are legal to use for play. This makes sense, seeing as the core set only comes with the cardboard ones.

However, it's been proven that the cardboard warps over time. Shouldn't there be a better standard when it comes to competitive play, such as Regionals and Nationals and such?

Maybe the warping of the cardboard is small enough to be a non-issue. What do you think?

Unless ffg starts including those in core sets you can't require them.

They require you to buy four Starvipers if you want to put Autothrusters on your TIE Interceptors. I don't see why they can't require you to buy acrylic templates if you want to enter a tournament.

I know that the "autothrusters only come with Starvipers" thing makes them money and requiring acrylic templates would NOT make them money, but pretending they wouldn't be able to do it because it wouldn't be fair on the players is ridiculous.

There is a big difference between a very good upgrade and a tool essential to the game. Just looking at FFG's policies in the past, they are not going to require you to buy something just to play in tournaments.

So as of right now, both the cardboard and acrylic third party templates are legal to use for play. This makes sense, seeing as the core set only comes with the cardboard ones.

However, it's been proven that the cardboard warps over time. Shouldn't there be a better standard when it comes to competitive play, such as Regionals and Nationals and such?

Maybe the warping of the cardboard is small enough to be a non-issue. What do you think?

Unless ffg starts including those in core sets you can't require them.

They require you to buy four Starvipers if you want to put Autothrusters on your TIE Interceptors. I don't see why they can't require you to buy acrylic templates if you want to enter a tournament.

I know that the "autothrusters only come with Starvipers" thing makes them money and requiring acrylic templates would NOT make them money, but pretending they wouldn't be able to do it because it wouldn't be fair on the players is ridiculous.

There is a big difference between a very good upgrade and a tool essential to the game. Just looking at FFG's policies in the past, they are not going to require you to buy something just to play in tournaments.

Except there's functionally no difference at all. Tournaments are not essential to the game, they're just something some players like to do. Just like using Autothrusters is something that some players like to do. FFG doesn't care AT ALL how out-of-pocket you will be to do the things you want to do. They're bundling the TIE Advanced fix with a $100+ model, for example.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if FFG made an acrylic template set, they'd require players to use them for tournaments. The only reason they don't require it at the moment is because it would make them no cash, and thus alienate their players for no benefit. And since the third party token and template market is so large, I don't think FFG wants to tangle with that mess. So you're right that FFG won't require players to use acrylic templates, but not because they care about making the players buy things. It's just not convenient for them at the moment.

Unless ffg starts including those in core sets you can't require them.

They require you to buy four Starvipers if you want to put Autothrusters on your TIE Interceptors. I don't see why they can't require you to buy acrylic templates if you want to enter a tournament.

I know that the "autothrusters only come with Starvipers" thing makes them money and requiring acrylic templates would NOT make them money, but pretending they wouldn't be able to do it because it wouldn't be fair on the players is ridiculous.

I don't see where you are required to use Autothrusters on anything. If you want to buy the couple StarVipers to get some copies to use on your Interceptors you can do that but it is in no way required. I guess the next thing you'll say is that FFG requires you to but the Corvette if you want to play.

On the other hand I'm not sure I'd really like to see how this game plays with the templates. They require you have the core components but allow some substitutions which is a far cry from Autothrusters.

Now if FFG wanted to give away sets as part of a tournament's entry and require their use there that would be quite alright although some people may not like the potential added expenses of that swag.

So as of right now, both the cardboard and acrylic third party templates are legal to use for play. This makes sense, seeing as the core set only comes with the cardboard ones.

However, it's been proven that the cardboard warps over time. Shouldn't there be a better standard when it comes to competitive play, such as Regionals and Nationals and such?

Maybe the warping of the cardboard is small enough to be a non-issue. What do you think?

Unless ffg starts including those in core sets you can't require them.

They require you to buy four Starvipers if you want to put Autothrusters on your TIE Interceptors. I don't see why they can't require you to buy acrylic templates if you want to enter a tournament.

I know that the "autothrusters only come with Starvipers" thing makes them money and requiring acrylic templates would NOT make them money, but pretending they wouldn't be able to do it because it wouldn't be fair on the players is ridiculous.

There is a big difference between a very good upgrade and a tool essential to the game. Just looking at FFG's policies in the past, they are not going to require you to buy something just to play in tournaments.

Except there's functionally no difference at all. Tournaments are not essential to the game, they're just something some players like to do. Just like using Autothrusters is something that some players like to do. FFG doesn't care AT ALL how out-of-pocket you will be to do the things you want to do. They're bundling the TIE Advanced fix with a $100+ model, for example.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if FFG made an acrylic template set, they'd require players to use them for tournaments. The only reason they don't require it at the moment is because it would make them no cash, and thus alienate their players for no benefit. And since the third party token and template market is so large, I don't think FFG wants to tangle with that mess. So you're right that FFG won't require players to use acrylic templates, but not because they care about making the players buy things. It's just not convenient for them at the moment.

Except functionally there is a giant difference. Someone playing in a tourney that doesnt use interceptors (such as myself..and a HUGE amount of players) is unaffected by the "mandatory" autothrusters. Forcing in acrylic templates affects EVERYBODY...not just a subset of players using a specific ship. I dont need the upgrade if i want to play in a tourney and I dont want to use that ship...I need templates if I am going to play in a tourney PERIOD regardless of what ships I am using. Making me buy acrylic templates when i have "official" cardboard ones that work just fine isnt a smart marketing decision.

And please...lets not get started on how the TIE adv being boxed with the raider proves that "they dont care about out of pocket expenses" like this somehow proves your point...because it doesnt. Again if you dont use the TIE adv (and there are MANY out there who wont) you dont NEED to buy the raider just to entera tourney do you? I could get into how this boxing was an excellent marketing decision on their part (because it is) or how it isnt "anti-consumer" (because its not) but this isnt the thread for that.

You are equating an upgrade that is "necessary" for a single ship to tools that are NECESSARY to play the game...so you can keep pushing that narrative, but I dont think anyone is buying it.

Side note..I had to just roll my eyes when I saw this thread pop up in the first place. Tourney people really really need to get over themselves...YOU ARE NOT THE CENTER OF THE GAME!! You guys arent as special or as important as you like to think you are. Its the casuals that make this game run and keep it the financial success it is...remember that. EDIT to add: this sounds similar to the suggestions that if we are going to update the damage deck or something of that nature that is "neccessary" for the "competitive scene" we do it and get it to them casuals be damned. The "competive" arm of the game demands it. I know that templates and the damage decks arent the same beast but this still reeks of the attitude that "our games are more important than everyone elses." /rant

Wow, the OP never said ANYTHING about tournament being more important than anything else, nor did he bait non-tournament players to this topic. Nor is he suggesting anything that would harm or even affect the casual players in the slightest. He only asked if requiring a new tool for tournament play would be a good idea.

On topic - Personally, I don't think the cardboard warpage is bad enough to require acrylic templates, but mine aren't that old yet, so maybe if you've been playing with them for 3 years it might be. In any case, unless the warping is really really bad, I can't see anyone taking advantage of it.

I don't see where you are required to use Autothrusters on anything.

I don't see where you are required to play in tournaments.

Autothrusters is just an example.

FFG has NO QUALMS about making people pay extra money, in order to play the game the way they want. If they thought there was a dollar in it for them, they'd absolutely make acrylic templates necessary for tournament play. Tournaments aren't necessary, you could still play casually with the cardboard templates from the box after all.

Like I said, I agree with you that they won't make them mandatory. But the only reason is because at this time they don't want to get involved with the third party token and template mob and the cease and desists, lawyers and lawsuits that would follow, not to mention the alienation of the player base, just to make a buck. It's not through some altruistic sense that making players buy special acrylic templates to play in tournaments would be unfair. They don't give a **** about fairness as it relates to your wallet. Which is fine, they're a business after all, I just get my jimmies rustled when someone suggest they'd NEVER require players to buy a product in order to attend a tournament because that would be so UNFAIR!

Regarding stuff you are required to buy in order to play in tournaments, isn't the Core set a pretty good example?

The core set is advertised on the box as a two player game, implying two can play with a single copy, and I can't find anything in the rulebook saying both players shoud/must own a copy of the core set.

In tournaments however, AFAIK you need to have your own damage deck so while you can share a Core set with a friend for casual play, if you want to play in tournaments you must buy a 2nd one.

No. Requiring acrylics excludes players, simple as that. Plus, as long as a player is using the same templates for the whole game, any inaccuracies have an equal chance of helping him out or biting him in the a**; over time, I figure it'll even out. And let's be honest: most of the Top of the Top players will have acrylics anyway (either from winning tourneys or from the lure of the new shiny). I don't think anything needs to change.

With that line of thinking, though, that means that those illegal Attack Wing bases that aren't exactly the same dimension as your opponents bases means that you are moving at a different rate than them.

Same with the templates.

If you aren't moving the same way, then it should be illegal...right?

First off, that's a false parallel and therefore a false extension of the line of thinking. Attack Wing bases are neither designed for X-Wing nor sold with X-Wing products; they are specifically meant to have different dimensions, which means that you know for certain that there are (relatively) significant differences, whereas cardboard templates may vary, but often don't. That situation also differs from the movement templates in that the tournament rules allow for one player to request that both sides share a set of templates, whereas the same consideration is not extended to bases. A better extension of the logic I was using would be that all players ought to be required to bring casino-quality dice, because we must have perfectly accurate rolls.

If you aren't moving the same way, then no, it shouldn't be illegal, because if it was, no tournament game would be legal. No matter what we do, perfect accuracy is impossible. You won't always get the template perfectly between the nubs; those collisions won't always work out perfectly; and yeah, sometimes you might accidentally bump a ship. There's a difference between doing what you can with what you have and deliberately changing the circumstances of the game, which is what you're doing when you buy ST:AW bases and bring them to a tourney.

I'd also like to point out that even acrylic templates aren't always perfect. I have two sets, and the one-banks and two-banks, as well as the two-straights, are different between them. It's only off by a millimeter or so, but this is a game of millimeters. Really, requiring acrylics will get you closer to perfect, but it won't really solve the problem; it'll just alienate new players by making them have to pay twenty dollars on top of the hundred-some they just spent buying ships in order to get into a tournament.

You know I agreed with everything you said, until you went off on this pointless anti-tournament rant.

Side note..I had to just roll my eyes when I saw this thread pop up in the first place.

Then why the hell did you click on it?

I mean my god, doe the fact that people talk about a style of game play you don't actually take part in offend you so much that you need to attack people who take part in it and talk about it?

Newsflash!!! Some people like the competitive play X-Wing offers and want to talk about how to improve it, but guess what, anything discussed in this thread is going to have zero impact on casual play. No one said that acrylic templates need to be the standard for X-Wing as a whole.

So your rant is not only misplaced it's completely uncalled for.

If you aren't moving the same way, then no, it shouldn't be illegal, because if it was, no tournament game would be legal. ... You won't always get the template perfectly between the nubs; those collisions won't always work out perfectly; and yeah, sometimes you might accidentally bump a ship.

This is in the spirit of my original question. I understand that perfection is a tall order, however...

It's only off by a millimeter or so, but this is a game of millimeters.

...which seems to be a contradiction to what you were just saying. I think that **** near everyone here not only agrees with this sentiment, but is borderline fanatic about it. Hence the birth of the credo "fly casual" in an attempt to reign in the crazy about it.

I'm not saying that everyone should be required to get an acrylic set. Hell, I don't even have one. I'm just curious what the opinion of the community here is on the subject, considering how insane some folks get about making things as even as possible before chance comes into play, which is understandable.

I distinctly remember someone here sending his attack and defense dice through an MRI machine to analyze the air bubbles inside. (...and it was awesome!)