Just got back from my second time ever playing at my FLGS (have only ever really played against my roommate) and am hooked. Playing against strangers definitely raises the stakes. I won, but only just barely and pretty much just because this list just happened to be a direct counter to his, but it was still close. This isn't the best list or even a really good list, but I'm having fun with it and would like some input. Please forgive the wall of text.

Anyway the list is

Soontir Fel

Push The Limit

Autothrusters

Targeting Computer

Royal Guard Title

Colonel Vessery

Lone Wolf

Heavy Laser Cannon

Stealth Device

Dark Curse

Targeting Computer

Total: 99 points

The list is pretty self-explanatory, I put Dark Curse and Fel together in the middle and the Colonel on the side. Dark Curse runs up there first gets a target lock for Vessery, hopefully survives all the dice thrown at him and runs away next turn and then comes back as a blocker/nuisance if I need him. Fel turtles behind Dark Curse or turns away and is mostly bait for Round 1-2/stay alive long enough to close. Vessery runs up from the side of the board and tries to get behind all the ships that turned into Dark Curse and Fel.

My problem is that I'm not good enough yet to reliably position my ships far away from Vessery to benefit from Lone Wolf as much as I would like and having 3 ships instead of 2 compounds that. Losing the LW reroll makes Stealth Device less effective (I lost it first time I was shot at tonight). My first thought is replacing it with Outmaneuver because it’s one of my favorite EPT's, but if I can I would rather focus on helping Vessery live longer since he is the priority target. Shield Upgrade and Determination? Hull Upgrade and something else? I like the 99 int bid, but would drop it to squeeze something else in if need be. Would love to hear some thoughts.

Cool list. It boosts survivability for sure. Here's a more offensive variant:

Soontir (Push the Limit, Autothrusters, Royal Guard title, Targeting Computer)

Backstabber (Targeting Computer)

Vessery (Outmaneuver, Heavy Laser Cannon, Hull Upgrade)

100 points

Backstabber instead of Dark Curse to maybe take some heat off Vessery, since BS more of a threat than DC offensively.

Here's another idea:

Soontir (Push the Limit, Autothrusters, Royal Guard title, Targeting Computer)

Turr Phennir (Veteran Instincts, Targeting Computer)

Vessery (Outmaneuver)

100 points

So here Vessery seems like less of a threat, but can still finish off the target lit up by the two PS9 main guns... Turr Phennir is fragile but his ability can help repositioning out of the opponent's arc after firing.

I really like your original list (really, really like it), with a small change of switching out Fel's Targeting Computer for Stealth Device. There are a few reasons:

1.) Stealth Device on Soontir makes him nearly impossible to kill. TC isn't bad, and it actually makes him hit significantly harder, which I like, but I think another Stealth Device (or Hull Upgrade) makes him super-nasty to kill. Soontir is an amazing closer, and you probably want him to be the last to die. Stealth Device helps ensure that.

2.) It leaves Dark Curse as the only Targeting Computer to support Vessery. This sounds like a bad thing, but it's actually a great thing. Vessery's ability is very powerful, and your enemy will want to shut it down hard, but Dark Curse is just completely awful to shoot at. If they go after Dark Curse to reduce Vessery's offense, then they're shooting at Dark Curse first. Shooting at Dark Curse first is the best way to lose this game short of flying your ships off the board. Even if they succeed due to luck, Lone Wolf makes Vessery a pretty solid contributor.

3.) With 2 Stealth Devices and Dark Curse, you've got 3 really hard targets, all of which are nearly immune to low-attack filler ships, this lets you focus on big damage dealers. Even if you lose one of your heavies in the process, you should be able to wipe up the filler on a regular basis.

All this being said, I think admat's list is completely legit as well. It's a matter of preference. I'm 100% in love with your original Vessery build (used it in the Regional I went to).

Of course, none of this answers your question, so I'll try to do that now. First off, I'd try at least one more game with Lone Wolf. I've had it win me games. You don't need to have it active 100% of the time for it to be great. You could try putting Dark Curse and Fel on once side and split Vessery wide. If the other squad goes for Vessery, he can usually take it pretty well, which lets Fel get in on the flank. This gives you a couple of initial turns of Lone Wolf active, that boosts your offense if DC doesn't have a TL up on a target yet, and it lets your defense stay strong in the opening rounds when it's easier for opposing squads to focus in on you. In middle rounds, you might not have it active, which is okay. You probably lose your stealth device, but you might not if the opposing squad guns for Fel instead. In the end game, as ships are destroyed, it becomes easier to activate once again (or Vessery is dead, making it a non-issue). In general, I'd say that Lone Wolf with stealth device can definitely save you 1 or 2 hits in the early game alone, and that can make it worthwhile even if it doesn't activate at all the rest of the game.

Cool list. It boosts survivability for sure. Here's a more offensive variant:

Soontir (Push the Limit, Autothrusters, Royal Guard title, Targeting Computer)

Backstabber (Targeting Computer)

Vessery (Outmaneuver, Heavy Laser Cannon, Hull Upgrade)

100 points

Backstabber instead of Dark Curse to maybe take some heat off Vessery, since BS more of a threat than DC offensively.

Here's another idea:

Soontir (Push the Limit, Autothrusters, Royal Guard title, Targeting Computer)

Turr Phennir (Veteran Instincts, Targeting Computer)

Vessery (Outmaneuver)

100 points

So here Vessery seems like less of a threat, but can still finish off the target lit up by the two PS9 main guns... Turr Phennir is fragile but his ability can help repositioning out of the opponent's arc after firing.

Thanks for the ideas admat!

Backstabber is my second favorite TIE pilot (after Dark Curse of course) and this list in general will definitely improve my damage output. As they say, offense is the best defense! Vessery with Outmaneuver and Hull upgrade intrigues me the most. Rolling a 4 dice HLC shot against one less green and being able to take one more hit would a long way towards increasing his efficiency. I think I'm going to try something very similar to this next game.

I really like your original list (really, really like it), with a small change of switching out Fel's Targeting Computer for Stealth Device. There are a few reasons:

1.) Stealth Device on Soontir makes him nearly impossible to kill. TC isn't bad, and it actually makes him hit significantly harder, which I like, but I think another Stealth Device (or Hull Upgrade) makes him super-nasty to kill. Soontir is an amazing closer, and you probably want him to be the last to die. Stealth Device helps ensure that.

2.) It leaves Dark Curse as the only Targeting Computer to support Vessery. This sounds like a bad thing, but it's actually a great thing. Vessery's ability is very powerful, and your enemy will want to shut it down hard, but Dark Curse is just completely awful to shoot at. If they go after Dark Curse to reduce Vessery's offense, then they're shooting at Dark Curse first. Shooting at Dark Curse first is the best way to lose this game short of flying your ships off the board. Even if they succeed due to luck, Lone Wolf makes Vessery a pretty solid contributor.

3.) With 2 Stealth Devices and Dark Curse, you've got 3 really hard targets, all of which are nearly immune to low-attack filler ships, this lets you focus on big damage dealers. Even if you lose one of your heavies in the process, you should be able to wipe up the filler on a regular basis.

All this being said, I think admat's list is completely legit as well. It's a matter of preference. I'm 100% in love with your original Vessery build (used it in the Regional I went to).

Of course, none of this answers your question, so I'll try to do that now. First off, I'd try at least one more game with Lone Wolf. I've had it win me games. You don't need to have it active 100% of the time for it to be great. You could try putting Dark Curse and Fel on once side and split Vessery wide. If the other squad goes for Vessery, he can usually take it pretty well, which lets Fel get in on the flank. This gives you a couple of initial turns of Lone Wolf active, that boosts your offense if DC doesn't have a TL up on a target yet, and it lets your defense stay strong in the opening rounds when it's easier for opposing squads to focus in on you. In middle rounds, you might not have it active, which is okay. You probably lose your stealth device, but you might not if the opposing squad guns for Fel instead. In the end game, as ships are destroyed, it becomes easier to activate once again (or Vessery is dead, making it a non-issue). In general, I'd say that Lone Wolf with stealth device can definitely save you 1 or 2 hits in the early game alone, and that can make it worthwhile even if it doesn't activate at all the rest of the game.

Thanks for the reply! I am really enjoying reading about your success with Defenders in your Battle Report thread. To say this list was inspired by your analysis is an understatement.

The Stealth Device vs Targeting Computer on Soontir was something I struggled with when I first put it together. I've only been able to run this squad a few times, but I am definitely leaning towards agreeing with you on the SD. My last game I found I never used Target Lock with Fel because A) I was perhaps too overly cautious with keeping him alive and turtled/boosted out of harm's way most rounds and B) Dark Curse taking evades and/or blocking after the initial TL kept him alive long enough for his TL to give Vessery the time he needed to do his work. Hmmmm, keeping Soontir alive for the 1v1 endgame (although ideally 3v1 : ) is a top priority and while I am afraid of only having on ship that can activate Vessery's ability I'm going to take your advice swap out the TC for SD.

As a side note you're completely right about the enemy shooting at Dark Curse. My opponent actually flew very well and seeing how I haven't had much experience flying against large based ships with Engine Upgrade I was caught several times without anything in arc (embarrassing!). Watching Han fling 4 dice (5 at R1) with Jan Ors HWK support but not being able to spend focus or use his reroll and getting no or 1 damage through on Dark Curse was great. Even with the bigger threats like Soontir and Vessery it almost becomes personal when Dark Curse just refuses to die keeps hanging on with one or two health.

I think I'll follow your list advice yet again and take it out once more, only swapping TC for SD on Fel. I think part of my LW problem might be needing to change the mentality that if I'm not using it every turn I'm somehow "wasting" my EPT. Saving my focus for defense (instead of barrel rolling all the time as a PS6) in the first few rounds might give me a little more mileage out of the 4 dice as well. Initial deployment is something else I'll need to fine tune as well which will go a long way towards avoiding the first couple hits thrown his way.

Edit: Spelling