I've been having this discussion on a different thread but the deployment of the Nashtah pup happens after the Hound's Tooth is destroyed. But it isn't worth any MOV points and, if it is the last ship, leaves the game is a weird state as all MOV is already scored.

Wouldn't the game technically be done when the H.T. was destroyed and right before the pup deployed? This timing window has always trumped other effects that occur at the same time as a ship's destruction so the pup would deploy but the game would be over.

Or is there something I am missing.

I've been wondering the same thing; hopefully I haven't missed the obvious or an answer in another thread before suggesting the following: DEPLOY is in bold in the card text, so perhaps 'deploy' will have a reference card (similar to cloak/decloak, boost, bombs, etc) that describes how to place the figure? Maybe use the 1-straight template from anywhere on the Hound's base to barrel-roll the Pup anywhere it fits?

Since we don't really know anything about the rules for how the pup us deployed or how it scores in a tournament, I would say yes, you are missing something, we all are. The rules that govern it.

As FL quips above, I don't think the info has been supplied yet, but I would expect that when the hound is destroyed, you'd put a template behind it, remove the hound, then drop the pup in front of, and butting against, the template - or something similar.

As FL quips above, I don't think the info has been supplied yet, but I would expect that when the hound is destroyed, you'd put a template behind it, remove the hound, then drop the pup in front of, and butting against, the template - or something similar.

Hmm. I've been assuming that you would deploy the pup like a bomb, one straight behind the tooth, but your way is a bit more intuitive avoids any overlapping issues.

I would imagine that the pup for MoV purposes would behave a lot like Fel's Wrath, but just isn't removed from the game at the end of the round.

It is the timing window that I am concerned about.

Last ship remaining is Hounds Tooth is destroyed = Triggers for End of game + Pup deployment.

If it is triggered it gets resolved. See the issue now?

Which is one of several issues that we will need the rules to address, once we gain access to the rules.

Actualy, the Hounds Tooth card is spoiled in the article (if not all the rules for "deploy") and it has the timing "After you are destroyed, before you are removed from the play area". Wouldn't end of game be when the last ship is "removed" rather then when it is "destroyed"? Same as for simultaneous fire rule when the last ship is destroyed by a ship of the same PS, it gets its chanse to fire back (if it has not allready) before it is removed and the game is over.

Wait. You mean we should have the rules for a situation, before we start questioning the rules for the situation?

Insanity.

To help here is the relevant postings that I'm using for this rules argument.

• All of one player’s ships are destroyed (respecting the Simultaneous Attack Rule, Rules of Play, Page 16). The player with at least one ship remaining immediately earns a Match Win, and the opposing player receives a Match Loss. If neither player has any remaining ships, the game ends in a Draw

​Emphasis in bold is mine

I suspect Buhallin will have the same issues with "immediately" that I do in this instance...

As Smuggler is suggesting, I'd tend to agree with.

Hound's Tooth triggers, based so far on what limited rules we know (from the pre-release card art), after you are destroyed. The victory conditions trigger when you are destroyed. This suggests at a glance, that the trigger for the Pup doesn't activate as the game has already concluded.

But who knows.

Here's something to think about:

FAQ Entry - “Fel’s Wrath”
If “Fel’s Wrath” is the last ship in a player’s fleet and is destroyed but has not yet been removed, and all enemy ships are destroyed and have been removed before “Fel’s Wrath” is removed, the player controlling “Fel’s Wrath” wins the match. In tournament play this would result in a modified match win and a Margin of Victory of 100 for both players.

Going by that logic, if the Hound's Tooth suffers some kind of simultaneous destruction as the enemy ship, surely the Pup's deployment delays the end of the match and means the Hound's Tooth player wins the match as he's still got a ship in the play area.

Also, from page 20 of the rulebook:

Breaking the Rules
Some abilities on cards conflict with the general rules. In case of a conflict, card text overrides the general rules.

It seems the only thing that is uncertain is the actual rule for deploying the Pup, which will be in the expansion. Unless FFG release further information, we'll just have to wait for the expansion to be released.

I assume we will get a reference card detailing the rules for deploying the Pup. So far we can probably rule out the suggestion above as the Pup is deployed before Hound's Tooth is removed. Most likely the rules will be either:

1. Deploy Within Range x (most likely 1)

2. place a template (likely 1 Straight) just like when Barrel Rolling or Boosting, then place the Pup as if it had boosted/Barrel Roled

3. Place the Pup so it's base touches the Hound's Tooth

As for ending the game, it is a common misconception that the game ends when the last ship is removed. It actually happens after the End Phase of that round. Usually these two situations seem to be the same as any remaining ships that haven't acted in the Combat phase yet have no valid targets and are skipped, and the End phase happens. But in this situation the Pup would be deployed, then the Hound's Tooth removed and remaining enemy ships would have plenty of opportunity to attack (if in Range) before the End Phase. In the End phase you check if all enemy ships are destroyed. As the Pup is still on the board (unless the enemy also managed to destroy it before the End Phase) , you go another round.

What this means for MoV I am not sure, as I only play casually, and have never attended a Tournament.

I suspect Buhallin will have the same issues with "immediately" that I do in this instance...

I've long since given up expecting "immediately" to mean anything in this game. Although I honestly wouldn't put it past them to decide it actually means something now. If anything, we have quite a few solid examples that "immediately" is actually meaningless.

Thanks to the Vader/Gunner rulings, we do know that any actively-triggered effects must be resolved even if the ship is removed, and the ship isn't actually removed until all those effects have been resolved. We also know (although I can't recall the specific example) that these kinds of situations can lead to draws, pointing pretty strongly (although never actually saying) that you only check for game-end conditions when all triggered abilities have been resolved.

I fully suspect they'll clarify it, but I strongly suspect that the end-of-game checks won't be able to happen between destruction of the Hound's Tooth and deployment of the Pup, meaning you still have ships in play.

Last paragraph of the End Phase section:

After completing the End phase, the round is over. If
neither player has destroyed all of his opponent’s ships,
a new round begins, starting with the Planning phase.

Next section is Winning the Game.

End of game check quite clearly happens in the End Phase, not immediately when the last ship of a player is Destroyed.

Except that you are quoting the basic rules and not the tournament rules. Tournament rules define 3 End of Game conditions.

1. You destroy all of your opponents ships (see quote up thread)

2. All ships are destroyed

3. Time is called

I made my points in the general thread but I'm simply pointing out that the Tournament Rules need an errata to allow the pup to arrive in the correct timing window.

Bullet 1 and 2 above are the normal victory conditions from the standard rules. They don't change just because you are playing a tournament.

Bullet 1 and 2 above are the normal victory conditions from the standard rules. They don't change just because you are playing a tournament.

You don't gain a Match win immediately when you destroy all of your opponents ships playing by the basic rules.

Do what the rules instruct you to do and not what you think you should do and you'll see the problem.

End of Match