alright, you made your point.
Let's ask a new question: why does the phantom exist?
The empire already had an arc dodger. They already had ships with 4 attach dice in the high 30 low 40 point range. So what possible reason was there for its introduction to the game?
Because they're fun, that's really the only reason you need.
How dare you sir... how dare you!
:lol:
And how is his dismissal of Armada any different than yours of turrets?
there is nothing resembling Xwing turrets in Armada, for starters
Because they pay for their abilities. Not only are they a significantly big point sink, they remove red dice from their side of the table. Because they are thematic, how many scenes in the movies show a turreted ship fending off a pack of fighters? Lots.
Because contrary to what people who only want to fly arc dodgers say, there is skill in every kind of ship, not just the ones that use mobility to avoid incoming fire.
Because looking at a game mechanic in a game this well balanced and saying it is wrong is failure to engage the game that is, for the game that is in your head.
"Because the house always wins, unless when you get that perfect hand you bet big, and then you take the house".....wait.
re: there is no skill involved in shooting with a PWT turret apart from not landing on an asteroid. You pick the poor **** in range 1-3, ie the poor **** that can't hope to shoot you without you shooting him, and roll dice. Without auto-thrusters, there'd be nothing to the mechanic.
the skill part of PWTs? Ironically, arc-dodging 
every ship maneuvers, PWTs are no different there. I just wish that I could join in the fun without getting slapped by an unavoidable mechanic 
Which game are we talking about?
The product known as X-Wing that FFG sells?
The Falcon consistently sells out - is probably one of most iconic spaceships in pop culture and is a great hook to introduce people visually to the greatness of the game.
The casual game that many people who probably don't really care about tournaments or who haven't played at an LGS?
It's a generally fun mechanic, iconic ship, fits in the lore - what's the issue there again?
The tournament scene? I can understand some of the arguments to be made on both sides here but I guess the secondary question is how much does FFG owe one group over the other or - who is driving the sales of the game? One might say 'well tournament players obviously because they are buying multiples" but the casual player that takes it 'viral' to their group of friends that don't buy multiples but do start to invest are driving sales as well. It would really be fascinating to take a look at the sales data, channels, etc...
Not just arc dodging, Red die mitigation. Sometimes it's dodging, sometimes it's blocking and there is a need to know when to use what. Admittedly Han doesn't get to block much, but Chewie and Oicunn do and it keeps them alive against a swarm.
Let me answer your question with a question:
Why are high PS arc dodgers like Soontir Fel who can just move mindlessly out of the way of your arcs using Boost+Barrel roll, then still have a Focus afterwards good for the game? If you can't give me a good enough reason, I won't actually do anything because this question is trying to illustrate a point.
Everyone has a certain kind of ship/strategy that they might not like, but I think it's foolish to just say "I hate this kind of ship and it should be removed", as such an action would cause wide reaching ripple effects, and all of the variety of strategies very much are part of what makes the game fun and good.
Additionally, Fat turret ships alone are not really a problem. There's a very clear reason they almost always pack a buddy who can arc dodge or otherwise deal with things while they chug around. If they were good enough on their own then the most popular builds would be pancakes, not Fat Turret + Ace (or occasionally 3 Escort Ships for blocking and burning other turrets). Turns out swarms DO counter turrets hard, but their escort always handles swarms so the real "problem" is the combination.
Arc-Dodging is mindless...now I've seen it all
The game is more diverse now regarding competitive lists than ever before.
We have fat turrets + fat escort, lots of B-Wing lists, swarms, fat ship + mini swarm, dual large base non-turrets, arc dodgers, and more.
One list isn't necesarilly dominating regionals right now. Yes, the V/YTs are common, but they all play differently and they don't always win!
Let me answer your question with a question:
Why are high PS arc dodgers like Soontir Fel who can just move mindlessly out of the way of your arcs using Boost+Barrel roll, then still have a Focus afterwards good for the game? If you can't give me a good enough reason, I won't actually do anything because this question is trying to illustrate a point.
Everyone has a certain kind of ship/strategy that they might not like, but I think it's foolish to just say "I hate this kind of ship and it should be removed", as such an action would cause wide reaching ripple effects, and all of the variety of strategies very much are part of what makes the game fun and good.
Additionally, Fat turret ships alone are not really a problem. There's a very clear reason they almost always pack a buddy who can arc dodge or otherwise deal with things while they chug around. If they were good enough on their own then the most popular builds would be pancakes, not Fat Turret + Ace (or occasionally 3 Escort Ships for blocking and burning other turrets). Turns out swarms DO counter turrets hard, but their escort always handles swarms so the real "problem" is the combination.
It doesn't even matter what maneuver Fel picks. He can just do two free maneuvers after everyone else moves!
Boring, boring, stupid, stupid ship. I make sure to complain loudly about anyone lame enough to fly that cheeseball.
re: there is no skill involved in shooting with a PWT turret apart from not landing on an asteroid. You pick the poor **** in range 1-3, ie the poor **** that can't hope to shoot you without you shooting him, and roll dice. Without auto-thrusters, there'd be nothing to the mechanic.
the skill part of PWTs? Ironically, arc-dodging
every ship maneuvers, PWTs are no different there. I just wish that I could join in the fun without getting slapped by an unavoidable mechanic
I'm tired of this notion that just because you have a 360 arc you have nothing to worry about when you're maneuvering. That's a load of crap.
Some scenarios where your facing with a turret matters:
Most times I've lost with a turret or have played against someone who has a turret and lost, is I didn't give them a shot every turn. If you're going to chase behind a turret, you're going to have a bad time. Make them chase YOU. That's how they end up making mistakes.
There are some other scenarios when flying against turrets you can exploit:
As far as to answer OP's question, the only thing I can convince you about why Fat Turrets are "good" for the game is the fact that if something changes, everyone will find something else to complain about. I'm sure a few months ago, everyone was asking if Phantoms were good for the game, and turrets were heralded as the only one's that could take care of those demons.
I say lets keep it at Fat Turrets. Let them be the enemy. It'll help people create lists that are aimed to bring them down, and that way people will learn it's really not that hard if you play against them correctly.
Really I haven't ever had a halfway decent opponent who complained much about them. The people who are the most vocal have rarely invested as much effort in countering them as they have whining about them.
This is untrue. I've won more tournament games against turrets in the past year than lost to them. I think the number of fat turrets winning at Regionals (over 50%) is a good indicator that there is a problem with competitive play. I know a number of good players that are also tired of seeing fat turrets at all events. Maybe they aren't "whining" about it, but they aren't happy about it. Most just roll their eyes when another fat turret list rolls up.
That is a solid point about turrets getting shots. It's not guaranteed at all and the suggestion that it is is pretty silly. Han has the potential to kill ps10 Corran. A well-flown Han will get his shots and win about half the time. A poorly-flown Han will fail to get consistent fire and be pretty easily whittled down.
Edited by TasteTheRainbowReally I haven't ever had a halfway decent opponent who complained much about them. The people who are the most vocal have rarely invested as much effort in countering them as they have whining about them.
This is untrue. I've won more tournament games against turrets in the past year than lost to them. I think the number of fat turrets winning at Regionals (over 50%) is a good indicator that there is a problem with competitive play. I know a number of good players that are also tired of seeing fat turrets at all events. Maybe they aren't "whining" about it, but they aren't happy about it. Most just roll their eyes when another fat turret list rolls up.
And the people doing those things loudly at actual tournaments... Just awful. Please go play some other game.
Edited by TasteTheRainbowPWTs have value
[...]
all in all, it's a mind-numbingly dumbed down experience to have to endure a game against a PWT but you know what they say (you don't know what you got until you lose it)
Okay, what is PWT?
The people who are poisoning the forums by telling every new player that wanders through that turret maneuvers don't matter and that you can't win without one are not good players. They're not good at the game, clearly, and they're terrible for the community.
Someone had to say it. I've been thinking this for a while now.
PWTs have value
[...]
all in all, it's a mind-numbingly dumbed down experience to have to endure a game against a PWT but you know what they say (you don't know what you got until you lose it)
Okay, what is PWT?
PWT = primary weapon turret
The people who are poisoning the forums by telling every new player that wanders through that turret maneuvers don't matter and that you can't win without one are not good players. They're not good at the game, clearly, and they're terrible for the community.
Someone had to say it. I've been thinking this for a while now.
See also: Manoeuvring and arc-dodging is "what the game is about".
2 ship fortess builds exist because of the way scoring in tourneys is done.
This hypothesis was proposed just a few days ago. I'm not convinced.
2 ship fortess builds exist because of the way scoring in tourneys is done.
This hypothesis was proposed just a few days ago. I'm not convinced.
Then put it to a test. Time your games, have you or your oponent fly two ship turrets. See where you are at in 60 or 75 minutes, then finish the game and see where you wind up with no time. Record your results and methodology for peer review.
Then put it to a test. Time your games, have you or your oponent fly two ship turrets.
Myself and others have managed to beat 2 fat PWT ships in time before, and others will continue to do so. There's no doubt that they give people an advantage when talking about MoV, but they won't win you games if you can't fly them.
"Tired of seeing" and claiming that they are some easy-mode, unbeatable, nuance-less ship that completely dominates the meta are two different things. The people who are poisoning the forums by telling every new player that wanders through that turret maneuvers don't matter and that you can't win without one are not good players. They're not good at the game, clearly, and they're terrible for the community.
Really I haven't ever had a halfway decent opponent who complained much about them. The people who are the most vocal have rarely invested as much effort in countering them as they have whining about them.
This is untrue. I've won more tournament games against turrets in the past year than lost to them. I think the number of fat turrets winning at Regionals (over 50%) is a good indicator that there is a problem with competitive play. I know a number of good players that are also tired of seeing fat turrets at all events. Maybe they aren't "whining" about it, but they aren't happy about it. Most just roll their eyes when another fat turret list rolls up.
And the people doing those things loudly at actual tournaments... Just awful. Please go play some other game.
I think they take less skill than a non-turret list. I'm not saying they don't take skill, but less so.
I think fat turrets have an advantage with the current tournament rules or else we wouldn't see them used as often.
I think it is bad for the game balance and bad for the game overall.
I don't start threads about it all the time and I'm sick of seeing them.
I did respond in the anti-turret strategy thread with a lot of good advice to learn to defeat them.
"Tired of seeing" and claiming that they are some easy-mode, unbeatable, nuance-less ship that completely dominates the meta are two different things. The people who are poisoning the forums by telling every new player that wanders through that turret maneuvers don't matter and that you can't win without one are not good players. They're not good at the game, clearly, and they're terrible for the community.Really I haven't ever had a halfway decent opponent who complained much about them. The people who are the most vocal have rarely invested as much effort in countering them as they have whining about them.
This is untrue. I've won more tournament games against turrets in the past year than lost to them. I think the number of fat turrets winning at Regionals (over 50%) is a good indicator that there is a problem with competitive play. I know a number of good players that are also tired of seeing fat turrets at all events. Maybe they aren't "whining" about it, but they aren't happy about it. Most just roll their eyes when another fat turret list rolls up.
And the people doing those things loudly at actual tournaments... Just awful. Please go play some other game.
I think they take less skill than a non-turret list. I'm not saying they don't take skill, but less so.
I think fat turrets have an advantage with the current tournament rules or else we wouldn't see them used as often.
I think it is bad for the game balance and bad for the game overall.
I don't start threads about it all the time and I'm sick of seeing them.
I did respond in the anti-turret strategy thread with a lot of good advice to learn to defeat them.
I read your advice. Great post.
That's the kind of stuff people need to read when they have trouble flying against turrets, instead of claiming they're unbeatable. They're not, you just need to change your strategy.
Everyone has their trouble list, or ship. I've had trouble flying against Corran and Brobots. Instead of calling them overpowered I analyze my strategies against them and adjust accordingly. Though I'm surprised no one is mentioning the fact that Brobots are having such great success in the meta so quickly and often. Too busy complaining about the turrets they are obliterating in tournaments right now.
The people who are poisoning the forums by telling every new player that wanders through that turret maneuvers don't matter and that you can't win without one are not good players. They're not good at the game, clearly, and they're terrible for the community.
Someone had to say it. I've been thinking this for a while now.
Yup the elitist are not cool at all... they think they are heroes or whatever.
Nah... Hel-Nah!
The people who are poisoning the forums by telling every new player that wanders through that turret maneuvers don't matter and that you can't win without one are not good players. They're not good at the game, clearly, and they're terrible for the community.
Someone had to say it. I've been thinking this for a while now.
I'm one of those people, and stand by those statements, but I placed second at regionals without a turret. I guess I'm not good at the game guys
I'm one of those people, and stand by those statements, but I placed second at regionals without a turret. I guess I'm not good at the game guysSomeone had to say it. I've been thinking this for a while now.The people who are poisoning the forums by telling every new player that wanders through that turret maneuvers don't matter and that you can't win without one are not good players. They're not good at the game, clearly, and they're terrible for the community.
Or the dice