I have seen enough threads complaining about fat turrets and people defending them, what I have not seen is a good positive reason for there existence other than they are a good counter for X. Why is a 2 ship fortess build good for the game of X-wing? If i dont see any good reasoned arguments, I will just play Armada till they go away.

Thanks Mat.

2 ship fortess builds exist because of the way scoring in tourneys is done.

Turrets are good for the game because they are thematic and add variety.

They're also pretty fun to play with and against.

Really I haven't ever had a halfway decent opponent who complained much about them. The people who are the most vocal have rarely invested as much effort in countering them as they have whining about them.

Think they're dull and all the same? Then you're not very good at this. Sorry.

Adios. Have fun playing armada. Fantasy Flights gets your money either way.

alright, you made your point.

Let's ask a new question: why does the phantom exist?

The empire already had an arc dodger. They already had ships with 4 attach dice in the high 30 low 40 point range. So what possible reason was there for its introduction to the game?

Because they're fun, that's really the only reason you need.

PWTs have value

they teach you to better appreciate the games you don't have to fly against them. Seriously, you see maneuvering in a whole new light once yours get to matter again.

they also teach you to better appreciate the differences between the YTs. Super Dash and Han could lumped together in the fat turret pile which, while technically correct, completely misses the massive differences between the two characters. While Han basically ignores most of the games mechanics, Dash seems to do much of the same until you realize how vital his actions are to his offense (not so much Han with his ability, predator, and gunner) and how vital smart maneuvering is to keep enemies outside of your doughnut hole. The guy makes for some very involving and intense games, which really shows you what PWTs could be if they had any sort of limitation.

all in all, it's a mind-numbingly dumbed down experience to have to endure a game against a PWT but you know what they say (you don't know what you got until you lose it)

I think it would be a fun exercise (that I don't have time for at the moment) to go back in forum time to get an understanding of the collective thinking at the time the turreted waves (Wave 2) first came out.

no one cares, ffg won't change anything, move along

Because Wave 1-3.5 the game was dominated by swarms of generics. Maybe you weren't a part of that monotony, but I was honestly getting bored of it. C3PO, R2D2 Corran, and the Phantom drastically changed how this game was played. Many players were suddenly required to step out of the comfort of their swarms, and honestly, we are all better players for it.

The players are now just trying to swing it back the other way, wanting their generics and "base game skills" to mean more, which is all right. It'll happen with time, reaching some middle ground.

There are just a lot of players who were not a part of this, coming into the game in the midst of Fat Turrets and Phantoms, not realizing that these are new things compared to how the game started.

I didnt specify if it was the threads or turrets i would like to go away. Thank you to those who have made the effort to produce thoughtful responses. I am not on a wind up i just want an opinion from a different perspective, but not couched in the usual terms these discussions normally take.

I dont mind giving FFG my money they make excellent games. It just a matter of whoch game is getting my money right now.

Mainly because there is more to the game than Tournament players, who will always moan about something!

In tournament play there will always be particular lists that do better than others... and they will always attract cries of 'Nerf it'.

Once nerfed there is always another target to moan about! LOL

I didnt specify if it was the threads or turrets i would like to go away. Thank you to those who have made the effort to produce thoughtful responses. I am not on a wind up i just want an opinion from a different perspective, but not couched in the usual terms these discussions normally take.

I dont mind giving FFG my money they make excellent games. It just a matter of whoch game is getting my money right now.

skip the dilemma, invest in both!

skip the dilemma, invest in both!

I have plenty of X-WING stuff already and I have just started my Armada collection, plus i am missing the last talisman expansion so there is plenty to spend money on.

The ships add something different to the game. I fail to see what is "unfun" about playing them.

PWTs have value

they teach you to better appreciate the games you don't have to fly against them. Seriously, you see maneuvering in a whole new light once yours get to matter again.

they also teach you to better appreciate the differences between the YTs. Super Dash and Han could lumped together in the fat turret pile which, while technically correct, completely misses the massive differences between the two characters. While Han basically ignores most of the games mechanics, Dash seems to do much of the same until you realize how vital his actions are to his offense (not so much Han with his ability, predator, and gunner) and how vital smart maneuvering is to keep enemies outside of your doughnut hole. The guy makes for some very involving and intense games, which really shows you what PWTs could be if they had any sort of limitation.

all in all, it's a mind-numbingly dumbed down experience to have to endure a game against a PWT but you know what they say (you don't know what you got until you lose it)

And what makes your experience and opinions greater than mine? I have not yet played a game against the "problem" turrets that I have not enjoyed. Nor, have I seen a game that wasn't very interesting that involved them.

They aren't; they undermine one of the aspects of fhe game that a) is the most fun and b) requires the most skill... Namely, flying and arc dodging.

That is why I am glad I only play with a group of friends, and very few people use them on anything but a y wing. The falcon just nevers gets used, because everyone views it as a bit cheesy. The Phantom is treated the same way. Give us interceptors and b wings and y wings and ties and x wings and shuttles and bombers and all the rest of the good fun, any day of the week.

I don't think anyone's saying they're good for the game, but that doesn't mean they're bad for the game either. They're just one component of the game that seems to have caught everyone's interest recently.

Personally, I think they add to the ship variety of the game, despite what many might think. If Fat turrets didn't exist, we wouldn't see anything other than arc-dodgers since jousters would no longer have a place in competitive play. It would be like removing the paper from rock paper scissors. In that alternate universe, you might be asking us to convince why "Fat Arc-dodgers" are good for the game

Also, I don't mean this in a condescending tone in any way; but why does the existence of fat turrets have to push you out of X-wing? Even if you're running into a ton of fat turrets at competitive events, you can always play friendly matches with your friends or LGS regulars. I highly recommend Vassal, too. Most of my games are on Vassal nowadays, and I run into a fat turret maybe once a week out of 5-10 games.

OMG.

This is what? The eleventy-first thread on turrets and/or fat builds in the past few days?

Enough already.

Srsly.

start a thread about small ships then

They aren't; they undermine one of the aspects of fhe game that a) is the most fun and b) requires the most skill... Namely, flying and arc dodging.

That is why I am glad I only play with a group of friends, and very few people use them on anything but a y wing. The falcon just nevers gets used, because everyone views it as a bit cheesy. The Phantom is treated the same way. Give us interceptors and b wings and y wings and ties and x wings and shuttles and bombers and all the rest of the good fun, any day of the week.

Well, let's not state your opinions as facts! Those should be rephrased to a) I feel are the most fun and b) I think requires the most skill. That is actually what you are saying.

People will have varying opinions, after all, and all of this is subject to our personal feelings.

Not that I mean any offense, as it is a common occurrence on the internet. Today I've just happened to come across yours, and felt it needed a correction!

Flying against a turret requires one strategy. Flying against a swarm requires another. Flying against Rebel control requires yet another strategy. These are but a few of the fleets out there. I'm glad for the variety! I don't dislike or like flying against any of these lists more than the other. I do like to see variety, but I see quite a bit of variety in the regionals thread. A lot more variety than there was in the wave 3-5 meta, certainly.

If only we lived in some alternate reality where Fat Turrets were losing their grip on the meta, and alternative lists were starting to grow in number and success.

Oh wait...

Let me answer your question with a question:

Why are high PS arc dodgers like Soontir Fel who can just move mindlessly out of the way of your arcs using Boost+Barrel roll, then still have a Focus afterwards good for the game? If you can't give me a good enough reason, I won't actually do anything because this question is trying to illustrate a point.

Everyone has a certain kind of ship/strategy that they might not like, but I think it's foolish to just say "I hate this kind of ship and it should be removed", as such an action would cause wide reaching ripple effects, and all of the variety of strategies very much are part of what makes the game fun and good.

Additionally, Fat turret ships alone are not really a problem. There's a very clear reason they almost always pack a buddy who can arc dodge or otherwise deal with things while they chug around. If they were good enough on their own then the most popular builds would be pancakes, not Fat Turret + Ace (or occasionally 3 Escort Ships for blocking and burning other turrets). Turns out swarms DO counter turrets hard, but their escort always handles swarms so the real "problem" is the combination.

I have seen enough threads complaining about fat turrets and people defending them, what I have not seen is a good positive reason for there existence other than they are a good counter for X. Why is a 2 ship fortess build good for the game of X-wing? If i dont see any good reasoned arguments, I will just play Armada till they go away.

Thanks Mat.

So your going to go play a game centered around turrets? mmmmmmmmmmmm kay.

Allot of people get thrown off by the Two turret meta, but if you dig deeper into the forums you can find some really good counter builds. Just get off the front page of the threads.

I have seen enough threads complaining about fat turrets and people defending them, what I have not seen is a good positive reason for there existence other than they are a good counter for X. Why is a 2 ship fortess build good for the game of X-wing? If i dont see any good reasoned arguments, I will just play Armada till they go away.

Thanks Mat.

So your going to go play a game centered around turrets? mmmmmmmmmmmm kay.

man you need to play some Armada pronto if that's what you think it is

I have seen enough threads complaining about fat turrets and people defending them, what I have not seen is a good positive reason for there existence other than they are a good counter for X. Why is a 2 ship fortess build good for the game of X-wing? If i dont see any good reasoned arguments, I will just play Armada till they go away.

Thanks Mat.

So your going to go play a game centered around turrets? mmmmmmmmmmmm kay.

man you need to play some Armada pronto if that's what you think it is

And how is his dismissal of Armada any different than yours of turrets?