every ship in the game can skirt combat and avoid engagements to a degree, even B-wings (but ironically, not so much the X)

the only ship type that cannot be avoided and which does not have to choose between avoiding and contributing offensively is the PWT

again, not to say they don't require skill, but there is absolutely nothing special about them relative to other ships other than that they don't have to make that crucial decision and that the opponent can't really make that decision against them (without thrusters) because there is no degree beyond 360 and no range beyond 3 in standard

of course that's just PWTs. HLC Dash is a hell and a half to fly considering the limits of the YT-2400's green maneuvers and an honest to god blindspot, coupled with no action-efficiency outside of KK and PTL

Skirting combat and avoiding engagements with multiple enemies at a time adds skill, complexity, and maneuvering to the game. Go fly a fat turret directly at BBBBZ and tell me what feels unsportsmanlike then.

Driving really fast in one direction is not maneuvering, nor is it complex or skilful. Large ships being inherently faster than anything else in the game (which they have no justification being) doesn't take skill. It's due to some truly puzzling design choices.

Claiming that because you fly one of the fastest ships in the game (that can shoot in any direction) AWAY from anything remotely threatening you are somehow skillful is not something I would advise anyone to do.

I fly with 4 B lists and have flown against them too. They aren't impossible to beat if you apply the correct tactics towards them. Their weaknesses are fairly obvious, though they are good at what they do. Flying directly into the guns of ANYTHING is pretty poor tactics unless you know you can win under those conditions.

What doesn't feel sportsmanlike is being able to outrun any fighter in the game with a freighter. The inherent wrongness in that statement should seem obvious.

There is no skill to flying at each other and kturning. That's when xwing was really boring.

Dash Rendar is the most nuanced and skill-required ship in the game.

There is no real skill in flying round the outside of the play area in that huge range 2 corridor, which shows up on every single table.

There is no real skill in using your large base and boost to outrun fighters that, by any reasonable simulation of what fighters should be capable of, should be able to overtake you.

There is no skill involved in landing on asteroids and being able to ignore those effects to barrel roll/boost off and continue to throw modified dice back at your pursuers. Something which no other ship in the game can do.

Super Dash is not one of the most skill-requiring or nuanced ships in the game when any player can net-list and copy winning tactics.

It isn't the only tactic seen with fat turrets, but it does happen and in my experience it happens more often than it doesn't.

While I don't have a problem with the concept of point fortressing turrets, I do have a problem with their ability to dictate range engagements to all but the most agile speed 5, boost fighters, the same fighters that suffer most against heavily modified turrets. I do have a problem when a single tactic can be used in such an unbalancing way. I don't like the fact that any turret player who chooses to fight close in, or joust, effectively surrenders the most effective tactic available to them, because it allows their opponent to get into range and arc and potentially block you, something fat, action dependent turrets are vulnerable to.

I don't even have a problem with circling the outside edge if it was possible for most fighters to overtake them. I don't think the problem lies in turret fatness, but in specific combinations of upgrades and large base-ness which prevent the apex predators (which should be fighters) from being able to effectively deal with armed freighters.

Lol trust me watch a good player dash, it takes a ton of skill to be effective with him. Also that "super" dash isn't even the best build for him but that's a whole different topic.

Not at all, you can move where ever you want. When I played Dash I would move into range one of something, suddenly realize that I couldn't fire my HLC at range one, and then I would Barrel Roll away. It's the ultimate goober ship.

Also, Fickle, that range 1 doughnut is not a downside at all with large ship barrel roll and boost. Super Dash is the dumbest turret in the game. Its greens are not limiting at all considering you have boost and barrel roll. The HLC doughnut is not a downside at all with the ability to do a green one bank, boost and barrel roll and still cart your dumb fat turret half way across the map.

I'd disagree

compared to Han, Dash has places he actually doesn't want to go and utilizing boost + roll mean giving up on either a TL or additional focus, and using both means no target-lock making his HLC shot a crapshoot. Han doesn't even give half of a ****; he will roll and re-roll and gunner and re-roll regardless

Dash might not be limited by obstructions, but not being able to shoot on asteroids gives you a pretty good idea of when he has to barrel-roll, and Dash cannot ignore other ships (allied or friendly) when performing actions.

best of all, if you're flying a fast ship against dash (esp higher PS) and you're rewarded by not getting shot. Against PWTs, you're rewarded with an extra red die flung against you.

Dash's skill dependency really shows against other fat ships. It's basically impossible to win a dice-off with a PWT's guaranteed damage and health without that range 3 green die, and literally impossible if they get into range one. Against Aggressors, Dash is just straight ****** since he's taking the same offense and hitting against one more green die + thrusters. Without good use of his ability, either ship will just eat him alive.

Dear god OK first "super" dash with PTL katarn and engine is so predictable. Blocking big ships I'd not that hard! If he he has pushed he has to do a green maneuver to get rid of the stress and make katarn worth his points. If you're behind dash then yeah you'll never catch him and you completely deserve to lose at that point. Just break off and pick a new angle to attack from. Plus if dash is barrel rolling and boosting or landing on rocks then he's not getting target locks or even focuses sometimes. Dash doesn't have natural rerolls, crit mitigation, or shoot well at range 1. Dash is definitely harder than Han or chewie imo.

I'd disagree

compared to Han, Dash has places he actually doesn't want to go and utilizing boost + roll mean giving up on either a TL or additional focus, and using both means no target-lock making his HLC shot a crapshoot. Han doesn't even give half of a ****; he will roll and re-roll and gunner and re-roll regardless

Dash might not be limited by obstructions, but not being able to shoot on asteroids gives you a pretty good idea of when he has to barrel-roll, and Dash cannot ignore other ships (allied or friendly) when performing actions.

best of all, if you're flying a fast ship against dash (esp higher PS) and you're rewarded by not getting shot. Against PWTs, you're rewarded with an extra red die flung against you.

Dash's skill dependency really shows against other fat ships. It's basically impossible to win a dice-off with a PWT's guaranteed damage and health without that range 3 green die, and literally impossible if they get into range one. Against Aggressors, Dash is just straight ****** since he's taking the same offense and hitting against one more green die + thrusters. Without good use of his ability, either ship will just eat him alive.

Is there a ship that can ignore other ships when performing actions? Dash isnt any different in that regard unless I am missing someone.

I agree that Dash has more issues than other fat turrets if you choose to fight in close and is perhaps more action dependent than either Fat Falcon or Decimator. However when circling the board he is no less fast than either of those two and is just as obnoxious if not more so, as at least if Han is circling the board and hits a rock he cant shoot or barrel roll off.

Any turret or large base ship which chooses to fight in close is going to require a lot of skill to maneuver correctly without getting blocked or bumping, which deprives you of actions and will make you much easier to kill. I can respect any player who can use turrets well in those circumstances. But the point is why would you choose to fight close in with a fat turret when your most effective tactic is utilizing your speed to completely outrun anything else in the game, whilst shooting in any direction with your turret. That is what I find obnoxious about fat turrets, not the turret part, or even the fat part. Its the fact that they are hands down the fastest ships in the game because of their base size and their access to boost, when there is no justification for them to be so fast. A Lambda shuttle can replicate this tactic, but it is effectively pointless because you cant shoot back this way.

Any fighter should be able to outrun a freighter. Seems common sense doesnt it? At the moment in the game even the fastest fighters (i.e. Interceptors and A Wings) can only just keep up with a fat turret with boost and they are less action efficient as they will be using at least one action to do so and dont have access to crew (and probably getting a stress). These type of fighters are vulnerable to the turret which can maintain its speed and use gunner/han/PTL to ensure that hits get through.

Reduce fat turret speed to sensible levels, force them to fight against fighters and not just run away and you would find them less pervasive as they wouldnt be able to point fortress as well as they can now - stuff would be able to catch them and engage them effectively. They would still be a viable ship type in good hands; they wouldnt be any less tough or any less turret-like. But they would be able to be caught by the majority of fighters - which is how it should be.

If you're behind dash then yeah you'll never catch him and you completely deserve to lose at that point.

Does that sound even remotely balanced? Get behind a fat turret and you deserve to lose?

If Dash (or any turret) doesn't joust with you in the first place and just circles the board you CANNOT get in front of him. If you are crossing the board to cut him off he will likely be able to shoot you and you cant shoot him. He can either K turn to keep you behind him or just blow past you with speed 4 and boost, which you CANT catch even in an interceptor or A Wing.

How does that sound like a common sense interpretation of relative speed benefits of fighters over freighters?

I'd disagree

compared to Han, Dash has places he actually doesn't want to go and utilizing boost + roll mean giving up on either a TL or additional focus, and using both means no target-lock making his HLC shot a crapshoot. Han doesn't even give half of a ****; he will roll and re-roll and gunner and re-roll regardless

Dash might not be limited by obstructions, but not being able to shoot on asteroids gives you a pretty good idea of when he has to barrel-roll, and Dash cannot ignore other ships (allied or friendly) when performing actions.

best of all, if you're flying a fast ship against dash (esp higher PS) and you're rewarded by not getting shot. Against PWTs, you're rewarded with an extra red die flung against you.

Dash's skill dependency really shows against other fat ships. It's basically impossible to win a dice-off with a PWT's guaranteed damage and health without that range 3 green die, and literally impossible if they get into range one. Against Aggressors, Dash is just straight ****** since he's taking the same offense and hitting against one more green die + thrusters. Without good use of his ability, either ship will just eat him alive.

Is there a ship that can ignore other ships when performing actions? Dash isnt any different in that regard unless I am missing someone.

I agree that Dash has more issues than other fat turrets if you choose to fight in close and is perhaps more action dependent than either Fat Falcon or Decimator. However when circling the board he is no less fast than either of those two and is just as obnoxious if not more so, as at least if Han is circling the board and hits a rock he cant shoot or barrel roll off.

Any turret or large base ship which chooses to fight in close is going to require a lot of skill to maneuver correctly without getting blocked or bumping, which deprives you of actions and will make you much easier to kill. I can respect any player who can use turrets well in those circumstances. But the point is why would you choose to fight close in with a fat turret when your most effective tactic is utilizing your speed to completely outrun anything else in the game, whilst shooting in any direction with your turret. That is what I find obnoxious about fat turrets, not the turret part, or even the fat part. Its the fact that they are hands down the fastest ships in the game because of their base size and their access to boost, when there is no justification for them to be so fast. A Lambda shuttle can replicate this tactic, but it is effectively pointless because you cant shoot back this way.

Any fighter should be able to outrun a freighter. Seems common sense doesnt it? At the moment in the game even the fastest fighters (i.e. Interceptors and A Wings) can only just keep up with a fat turret with boost and they are less action efficient as they will be using at least one action to do so and dont have access to crew (and probably getting a stress). These type of fighters are vulnerable to the turret which can maintain its speed and use gunner/han/PTL to ensure that hits get through.

Reduce fat turret speed to sensible levels, force them to fight against fighters and not just run away and you would find them less pervasive as they wouldnt be able to point fortress as well as they can now - stuff would be able to catch them and engage them effectively. They would still be a viable ship type in good hands; they wouldnt be any less tough or any less turret-like. But they would be able to be caught by the majority of fighters - which is how it should be.

there are many ships that ignore blocking ito actions

does it have a system slot? congrats! it can ignore blocking

see also, to a more limited degree, FCS and ACD (or, to a hilarious degree, whisper + ACD + FCS)

Han himself also doesn't give much of a hoot. He loses one focus/evade/boost, keeps his re-rolls and c3po. Dash has no such luck without a target-lock prior.

also if a PWT is annoying because it so fast and yet a shuttle is not because it can shoot backwards, seems the problem is still the PWT. Large base speed is mitigated heavily by any kind of firing restriction (see: how to beat aggressors 101) as it forces a lot of decision making upon the player (move like crazy and lose arc, or keep arc and don't move like crazy). PWT removes those choices and opens up a considerably powerful dial.

I'd disagree

compared to Han, Dash has places he actually doesn't want to go and utilizing boost + roll mean giving up on either a TL or additional focus, and using both means no target-lock making his HLC shot a crapshoot. Han doesn't even give half of a ****; he will roll and re-roll and gunner and re-roll regardless

Dash might not be limited by obstructions, but not being able to shoot on asteroids gives you a pretty good idea of when he has to barrel-roll, and Dash cannot ignore other ships (allied or friendly) when performing actions.

best of all, if you're flying a fast ship against dash (esp higher PS) and you're rewarded by not getting shot. Against PWTs, you're rewarded with an extra red die flung against you.

Dash's skill dependency really shows against other fat ships. It's basically impossible to win a dice-off with a PWT's guaranteed damage and health without that range 3 green die, and literally impossible if they get into range one. Against Aggressors, Dash is just straight ****** since he's taking the same offense and hitting against one more green die + thrusters. Without good use of his ability, either ship will just eat him alive.

Is there a ship that can ignore other ships when performing actions? Dash isnt any different in that regard unless I am missing someone.

I agree that Dash has more issues than other fat turrets if you choose to fight in close and is perhaps more action dependent than either Fat Falcon or Decimator. However when circling the board he is no less fast than either of those two and is just as obnoxious if not more so, as at least if Han is circling the board and hits a rock he cant shoot or barrel roll off.

Any turret or large base ship which chooses to fight in close is going to require a lot of skill to maneuver correctly without getting blocked or bumping, which deprives you of actions and will make you much easier to kill. I can respect any player who can use turrets well in those circumstances. But the point is why would you choose to fight close in with a fat turret when your most effective tactic is utilizing your speed to completely outrun anything else in the game, whilst shooting in any direction with your turret. That is what I find obnoxious about fat turrets, not the turret part, or even the fat part. Its the fact that they are hands down the fastest ships in the game because of their base size and their access to boost, when there is no justification for them to be so fast. A Lambda shuttle can replicate this tactic, but it is effectively pointless because you cant shoot back this way.

Any fighter should be able to outrun a freighter. Seems common sense doesnt it? At the moment in the game even the fastest fighters (i.e. Interceptors and A Wings) can only just keep up with a fat turret with boost and they are less action efficient as they will be using at least one action to do so and dont have access to crew (and probably getting a stress). These type of fighters are vulnerable to the turret which can maintain its speed and use gunner/han/PTL to ensure that hits get through.

Reduce fat turret speed to sensible levels, force them to fight against fighters and not just run away and you would find them less pervasive as they wouldnt be able to point fortress as well as they can now - stuff would be able to catch them and engage them effectively. They would still be a viable ship type in good hands; they wouldnt be any less tough or any less turret-like. But they would be able to be caught by the majority of fighters - which is how it should be.

there are many ships that ignore blocking ito actions

does it have a system slot? congrats! it can ignore blocking

see also, to a more limited degree, FCS and ACD (or, to a hilarious degree, whisper + ACD + FCS)

Han himself also doesn't give much of a hoot. He loses one focus/evade/boost, keeps his re-rolls and c3po. Dash has no such luck without a target-lock prior.

also if a PWT is annoying because it so fast and yet a shuttle is not because it can shoot backwards, seems the problem is still the PWT. Large base speed is mitigated heavily by any kind of firing restriction (see: how to beat aggressors 101) as it forces a lot of decision making upon the player (move like crazy and lose arc, or keep arc and don't move like crazy). PWT removes those choices and opens up a considerably powerful dial.

The speed is still the issue, not the ability to fire 360 so much. Turreted ships should be harder to attack because of the return fire. There's no point in sticking an ineffective turret on something. Its still only one shot. I used the shuttle to underline the point. Shuttles that circle the table edge gain nothing - even though it doesn't quite make sense that they should be able to outrun fighters. They can't shoot back, making them pretty pointless point fortresses (heh). A fat turret that circles the table gains everything, including the ability to out pace any pursuer - which includes aggressors, as the YTs have speed 4 forward (and can get boost) which aggressors don't.

It's when they can outrun anything that the 360 fire becomes an issue as they can control ranged engagements through speed. Meaning fighters can never dominate by closing to range 1 and having the option of overwhelming and blocking the fat turret. The ability to dictate range makes the turrets one shot per turn count for more and more over time because the turrets can modify dice so much, while they gain the benefit of range by preventing fighters from gaining advantage at close range. If all fighters could catch fat turrets easier it would make fat turrets less able to weather fire by staying at range. It isn't something that freighters should be able to do in the first place. A Dash that doesn't circle still has all his abilities and vulnerabilities, a fat Han that doesn't circle can still turret, gunner and re roll to his hearts content. However a fat turret that can be more easily overtaken by fighters cannot point fortress as well as they can now and can be more easily dealt with by small base ships. It also makes much more sense for fighters to be able to catch a large ship in order to attack it.