As long as there are people losing games, not getting prizes, and thinking they are better than they actually are then the complaining will never stop. How many regionals, nationals, and worlds winners do you see coming on to the forums and complaining about the rules? If interceptors were winning over half the regionals then people who were losing would be complaining. If X wings were constantly at the top tables and winning people would be looking to change the mechanics and rules to make it so they could beat those X wings.

The whining will always happen regardless. If these guys complaining were constantly at the top tables and winning regionals and Gen con then we'd never hear them say anything bad about the game. There is way more productive things to do with your time and energy like training how to beat those lists or coming up with a better list or strategy.

Strong competitors blame themselves for there losses and look at what they can do to change themselves and rise to the level required to win.

Weak competitors blame the rules and mechanics for there losses and look to change elements of the game and lower the game as a whole down to there level.

As long as there are people losing games, not getting prizes, and thinking they are better than they actually are then the complaining will never stop. How many regionals, nationals, and worlds winners do you see coming on to the forums and complaining about the rules? If interceptors were winning over half the regionals then people who were losing would be complaining. If X wings were constantly at the top tables and winning people would be looking to change the mechanics and rules to make it so they could beat those X wings.

The whining will always happen regardless. If these guys complaining were constantly at the top tables and winning regionals and Gen con then we'd never hear them say anything bad about the game. There is way more productive things to do with your time and energy like training how to beat those lists or coming up with a better list or strategy.

Strong competitors blame themselves for there losses and look at what they can do to change themselves and rise to the level required to win.

Weak competitors blame the rules and mechanics for there losses and look to change elements of the game and lower the game as a whole down to there level.

That's a strawman the issue is not and never has been that turrets can't be beaten, the thing people dislike is a dogfighting game lacking starfighters dogfighting, not to mention facing the same basic list over and over is tedious.

It's also dull as old dishwater watching them just circle, movement should be vitally important but with pwt it isn't.

it's a difficult issue to put into proper terms

my issue is that I can't do anything to avoid their fire. Sure, I can set up favorable exchanges but that's just dice and dice are within ability to influence but are beyond my control. No other type of ship is as absolute with its lack of counter-play in that they all have restrictions on their firepower, whether it be blindspots on multiple arcs or range restrictions on secondary weapons. These lead to some hard choices in games between maneuvering offensively and maneuvering for future turns or masterfully engineering situations where it can do both, choices that a PWT simply does not have to make beyond perhaps the addition of a green die or two (oh, the horror)

The PWT cares about its own maneuvers and arc dodging, and while I'm glad my opponents enjoy flying them I just wish I could enjoy maneuvering to same degree without having to invest in auto-thrusters. Without those, it basically boils down to getting arcs and rolling dice, hoping they don't get lucky. While there is undeniable skill involved in pining turrets for arced shots, this is a skill that has to be utilized against every effective large ship--it is not a new concept nor is it unique to turrets---only the PWT doesn't have to compromise its offense to maneuver around these attempts.

I guess the best way to put it is I feel like I just lose an element of complexity when playing against a PWT relative to every other ship in the game. Best I can say is I feel like I'm playing an incomplete game of x-wing.

it's a difficult issue to put into proper terms

my issue is that I can't do anything to avoid their fire. Sure, I can set up favorable exchanges but that's just dice and dice are within ability to influence but are beyond my control. No other type of ship is as absolute with its lack of counter-play in that they all have restrictions on their firepower, whether it be blindspots on multiple arcs or range restrictions on secondary weapons. These lead to some hard choices in games between maneuvering offensively and maneuvering for future turns or masterfully engineering situations where it can do both, choices that a PWT simply does not have to make beyond perhaps the addition of a green die or two (oh, the horror)

The PWT cares about its own maneuvers and arc dodging, and while I'm glad my opponents enjoy flying them I just wish I could enjoy maneuvering to same degree without having to invest in auto-thrusters all the time

Turrets were created to counter that. Was it a powerful counter? Yes. Could they have made the mechanic differently? Probably thought about, but so far ideas I've heard (choosing quadrants, etc.) Are far too complicated. They went with the simplest option. Are they doing things to mitigate it? Yes, they introduced autothrusters, and have had a card for a few waves now (Outmaneuver) that counter this. Nobody uses it though.

The only thing I agree with is PWT do tend to have an advantage at R1 outside of arc. Autothrusters won't save you at that range. And other ships just get destroyed at that range. But instead of looking for the nerf or change in rules, change your play style. Should you be at R1 of a PWT? No. Hit him at R2. If you have a weaker ship, bring it in to block, and possibly make him spread damage. There's more to it than just get as close as possible and fire. Yes, its a dogfighting game, and turrets require a different strategy than other ships do. Find out the most optimal one and obtain better results. If a change/erata/nerf happens, then you'll have an even easier time against them.

In addition, we've been through it now that the best list against turrets is numbers. Want to know why turrets are succeeding in tournaments? The 2 ship meta. Turret+Ace, Brobots, Firespray+IG are the name of the game. Turrets thrive in this environment. If more people brought more bodies, the landscape would be different.

I don't have problems winning against turret builds insofar as I have problems against any well flown ship, I just don't enjoy playing against them.

there's a bit of a difference

I respect your similar frustration against arc-dodgers, though. Buggers can be frustrating

For me personally, I never found it much of a problem because their core advantages can actually be negated by maneuvers (blocking and obstructions being the obvious, but also setting up arcs you know the dodger doesn't want to get close to and forcing him away, which buys you time since ships like soonts don't have arcs and will have to give up their offense for a few turns in order to escape). Same with mr Rendar. He'd still get a focus, but range 1 HLC and his actions are hell to pay if he **** up, not to mention asteroids still cold clock him.

Now the Phantom specifically was a bit different for me, because while enough dedication could get that beast in arc it did nothing for the fat han levels of free actions regardless of bumping and, more importantly, four green dice Thank god for VI, R3-A2 Luke

I see PWTs as very similar. You derive very little concrete benefit from maneuvering around them relative to every other ship in the game. You won't hit predator, ability, gunner, c3po, or the 360 arc and you won't ever be safe if you can get a shot at it, unless you count the extra green dice (and with a name like ficklegreendice...)

I wouldn't want to see a nerf for the sake of a nerf (diminishing the ship's competitiveness) but for the sake of giving me something more to play around.

And that's the source of my hate for the PWT mechanic (except in the case of the yt-2400 and the k-wing, where just using the turret is more of a punishment than an advantage )

As long as there are people losing games, not getting prizes, and thinking they are better than they actually are then the complaining will never stop. How many regionals, nationals, and worlds winners do you see coming on to the forums and complaining about the rules? If interceptors were winning over half the regionals then people who were losing would be complaining. If X wings were constantly at the top tables and winning people would be looking to change the mechanics and rules to make it so they could beat those X wings.

The whining will always happen regardless. If these guys complaining were constantly at the top tables and winning regionals and Gen con then we'd never hear them say anything bad about the game. There is way more productive things to do with your time and energy like training how to beat those lists or coming up with a better list or strategy.

Strong competitors blame themselves for there losses and look at what they can do to change themselves and rise to the level required to win.

Weak competitors blame the rules and mechanics for there losses and look to change elements of the game and lower the game as a whole down to there level.

After ten years working in game stores, and thirty years playing these types of game... i agree one hundred percent with everything you typed out.

Attah-boy!

This is why I dropped out of any kind of competitive play... to many bad people in large crowds... with a few good cool people in the mix.

Not my thing... i am to set in my ways to deal with the negatives. At home here in the parlor there are no negatives.

I swear if I see Corran or Brobots on the other side of the table, I'm already groaning.

Yes, some ships/lists do tend to cause frustration and are less fun to fly against. I am definitely guilty of it before (asked for a recount on the pairings at regionals after being paired with the 3rd Brobot list of the day. People laughed, I didn't). I should be mindful how that might make the player across the board feel though, as if what they're flying isn't considered "fun", even though they might be enjoying it. It defeats the purpose of playing the game, for fun.

I think this is what everyone should keep in mind. I don't want to discourage players that love to play brobots, or Corran, just because they frustrate me. As I would hope someone wouldn't discourage me to fly what I enjoy playing. That's really what it comes down to.

For the people who say that there complaints are that the turrets are just not fun to play against then why don't you just accept that there is a part of the game that maybe you don't enjoy. Wouldn't that be better than trying to make your subjective view on fun everyone's view on fun? Some people really like flying turrets. Some people really like flying tie swarms. Some people really like flying arc dodgers. How about instead of speaking for everyone and pretending to be the definitive voice of fun and the spirit of the game, you just play the game?

Seriously think of the worst game of x wing you ever had. Isn't it better than working though?

At home with friends you can play how ever you want, if you all agree that han should have to guess an arc before moving and he only have 1 attack dice and every ship get a free evade token when attacked by the falcon then so be it! Do what ever to make every aspect of the game fun.

At tournaments though you are playing FFG's game and there rules. People are trying to give themselves the best chance to win within those parameters and a TON of people have FUN doing it. Just because you don't enjoy a part of the game doesn't mean everyone feels the same way. Me standing on a soap box trying to change FFG's rules and systems to make it match my definition of fun just doesn't feel right for me. Either I will adapt to have fun, accept that I don't like every part of the game but I like enough to keep playing and have some fun, or I will just move on to another game competitively that matches my idea of fun.

By the same token the people who enjoy turrets are not all of the community why should they dictate the experience for everyone else?

By the same token the people who enjoy turrets are not all of the community why should they dictate the experience for everyone else?

The turret players aren't dictating anything but to let them play what's available to them. Unless there is a restricted list there's no reason why you should tell someone they can't run a Fat Han or Chirpy or anything else they feel like flying.

By the same token the people who enjoy turrets are not all of the community why should they dictate the experience for everyone else?

The turret players aren't dictating anything but to let them play what's available to them. Unless there is a restricted list there's no reason why you should tell someone they can't run a Fat Han or Chirpy or anything else they feel like flying.

Because by running those lists they prevent others from running what they like to.

Turrets restrict diversity thats why people want changes.

Truly good players never complain about this kind of stuff. They build lists to counter whatever they may face and have solid strategies against any builds. This is why they are good players.

I think I am going to start a new thread about rock, paper and scissors.

Rock is too powerful and always crushes scissors so it needs to be corrected. Paper is also too powerful as it always covers rock and scissors are too powerful as they always cut paper. We desperately need a fix for this game. lol.

By the same token the people who enjoy turrets are not all of the community why should they dictate the experience for everyone else?

The turret players aren't dictating anything but to let them play what's available to them. Unless there is a restricted list there's no reason why you should tell someone they can't run a Fat Han or Chirpy or anything else they feel like flying.

Because by running those lists they prevent others from running what they like to.

Turrets restrict diversity thats why people want changes.

Even so, I prefer flying against meta lists if I'm trying something new. Gives me a better representation on how it would hold up competitively.

By the same token the people who enjoy turrets are not all of the community why should they dictate the experience for everyone else?

The turret players aren't dictating anything but to let them play what's available to them. Unless there is a restricted list there's no reason why you should tell someone they can't run a Fat Han or Chirpy or anything else they feel like flying.

Because by running those lists they prevent others from running what they like to.

Turrets restrict diversity thats why people want changes.

You can run what ever you want

By the same token the people who enjoy turrets are not all of the community why should they dictate the experience for everyone else?

The turret players aren't dictating anything but to let them play what's available to them. Unless there is a restricted list there's no reason why you should tell someone they can't run a Fat Han or Chirpy or anything else they feel like flying.

Because by running those lists they prevent others from running what they like to.

Turrets restrict diversity thats why people want changes.

You can run what ever you want

If that were true this thread and all the others like it would not exist.

If I may I'd like to compare some of these arguments to chess. Chess is a great game: sides are equal and the objective is the same for both sides. Now imagine a series of games that have 3 things in common. 1) you're always white. 2) Black always plays the Sicilian Defense. 3) You always lose. Is the game broken? Should the Sicilian Defense be banned? Or, heaven forbid, you learn to deal with it. Playing against the SD repetitively is frustrating as h@)). (Experience here) Each game of x-wing is different even if the squad facing you isn't. Asteroid placement, squad placement and opening moves all change the game. Against some players and builds don't expect a Fool's Mate. If you want to compete and win and EARN the laurels be prepared for the fight. Your opponent is.

By the same token the people who enjoy turrets are not all of the community why should they dictate the experience for everyone else?

The turret players aren't dictating anything but to let them play what's available to them. Unless there is a restricted list there's no reason why you should tell someone they can't run a Fat Han or Chirpy or anything else they feel like flying.

Because by running those lists they prevent others from running what they like to.

Turrets restrict diversity thats why people want changes.

You can run what ever you want

If that were true this thread and all the others like it would not exist.

What can you not run? I've yet to go to a tournament or store that bans someone from running certain lists or ships?

For the people who say that there complaints are that the turrets are just not fun to play against then why don't you just accept that there is a part of the game that maybe you don't enjoy. Wouldn't that be better than trying to make your subjective view on fun everyone's view on fun? Some people really like flying turrets. Some people really like flying tie swarms. Some people really like flying arc dodgers. How about instead of speaking for everyone and pretending to be the definitive voice of fun and the spirit of the game, you just play the game?

Seriously think of the worst game of x wing you ever had. Isn't it better than working though?

At home with friends you can play how ever you want, if you all agree that han should have to guess an arc before moving and he only have 1 attack dice and every ship get a free evade token when attacked by the falcon then so be it! Do what ever to make every aspect of the game fun.

At tournaments though you are playing FFG's game and there rules. People are trying to give themselves the best chance to win within those parameters and a TON of people have FUN doing it. Just because you don't enjoy a part of the game doesn't mean everyone feels the same way. Me standing on a soap box trying to change FFG's rules and systems to make it match my definition of fun just doesn't feel right for me. Either I will adapt to have fun, accept that I don't like every part of the game but I like enough to keep playing and have some fun, or I will just move on to another game competitively that matches my idea of fun.

I don't think it's subjective that turrets ruin the game. The game is (supposed to be) about maneuvering your ships well and anticipating your opponent. Fat turrets, especially Super Dash, don't at all have that aspect to them. Non-turret ships typically have to give up shots in order to arc dodge well, turrets give up nothing when they do this.

I don't see a problem with forcing people to fly ships in line with what this game is supposed to be about. FFG nerfed swarms with the Super Phantom and changes to MoV, then they nerfed the Super Phantom, I don't see what would be the big deal with nerfing dumb pancakes ruining 55% of the games.

How many more regional top 8's have to be 7/8 fat turrets before we can all agree that this is obnoxious? Can we go back to having a meta based around 'normal' lists please? Where maneuvering well is rewarded?

The issue with your last statement is that you don't want the Falcon/Decimator to be competitive, period. Which, ironically, is against the call for "diversity". You can ignore the various other squads that have won, or at least gotten into the top 8. But that is you choice to remain miserable.

For the people who say that there complaints are that the turrets are just not fun to play against then why don't you just accept that there is a part of the game that maybe you don't enjoy. Wouldn't that be better than trying to make your subjective view on fun everyone's view on fun? Some people really like flying turrets. Some people really like flying tie swarms. Some people really like flying arc dodgers. How about instead of speaking for everyone and pretending to be the definitive voice of fun and the spirit of the game, you just play the game?

Seriously think of the worst game of x wing you ever had. Isn't it better than working though?

At home with friends you can play how ever you want, if you all agree that han should have to guess an arc before moving and he only have 1 attack dice and every ship get a free evade token when attacked by the falcon then so be it! Do what ever to make every aspect of the game fun.

At tournaments though you are playing FFG's game and there rules. People are trying to give themselves the best chance to win within those parameters and a TON of people have FUN doing it. Just because you don't enjoy a part of the game doesn't mean everyone feels the same way. Me standing on a soap box trying to change FFG's rules and systems to make it match my definition of fun just doesn't feel right for me. Either I will adapt to have fun, accept that I don't like every part of the game but I like enough to keep playing and have some fun, or I will just move on to another game competitively that matches my idea of fun.

I don't think it's subjective that turrets ruin the game. The game is (supposed to be) about maneuvering your ships well and anticipating your opponent. Fat turrets, especially Super Dash, don't at all have that aspect to them. Non-turret ships typically have to give up shots in order to arc dodge well, turrets give up nothing when they do this.

I don't see a problem with forcing people to fly ships in line with what this game is supposed to be about. FFG nerfed swarms with the Super Phantom and changes to MoV, then they nerfed the Super Phantom, I don't see what would be the big deal with nerfing dumb pancakes ruining 55% of the games.

How many more regional top 8's have to be 7/8 fat turrets before we can all agree that this is obnoxious? Can we go back to having a meta based around 'normal' lists please? Where maneuvering well is rewarded?

It is completely subjective that "turrets ruin the game" many people think that they are fun and fine. Don't presume to know the spirit of the game. Lmao at forcing people to fly ships in line with what YOU think this game is supposed to be about. Sorry I'm playing FFG's X-wing not Paragoombaslayer's X-wing. If you truly think they RUIN the game then why on earth do you continue to play it? Why not just play casually with your friends and store mates? Why not house rule your own stats and fixes for these ships? Heck go out and design your own game? Why we should dumb the game down to a level where you are competitive?

I don't think it's subjective that turrets ruin the game. The game is (supposed to be) about maneuvering your ships well and anticipating your opponent.

Says who? Who declared that the game is about maneuvering your ships well and anticipating your opponent?

That's precisely what subjectivity is. From your perspective, that's the point of the game. It's not mine, and obviously not other people's.

My question is: "when are people like you going to make it ok that other people have a different opinion than you?"

Jacob

It is completely subjective that "turrets ruin the game" many people think that they are fun and fine. Don't presume to know the spirit of the game. Lmao at forcing people to fly ships in line with what YOU think this game is supposed to be about. Sorry I'm playing FFG's X-wing not Paragoombaslayer's X-wing. If you truly think they RUIN the game then why on earth do you continue to play it? Why not just play casually with your friends and store mates? Why not house rule your own stats and fixes for these ships? Heck go out and design your own game? Why we should dumb the game down to a level where you are competitive?

I only want this game, only in official tournament settings, and only with official FFG changes to turrets to my liking. I don't think that's too much to ask for.

For the people who say that there complaints are that the turrets are just not fun to play against then why don't you just accept that there is a part of the game that maybe you don't enjoy. Wouldn't that be better than trying to make your subjective view on fun everyone's view on fun? Some people really like flying turrets. Some people really like flying tie swarms. Some people really like flying arc dodgers. How about instead of speaking for everyone and pretending to be the definitive voice of fun and the spirit of the game, you just play the game?

Seriously think of the worst game of x wing you ever had. Isn't it better than working though?

At home with friends you can play how ever you want, if you all agree that han should have to guess an arc before moving and he only have 1 attack dice and every ship get a free evade token when attacked by the falcon then so be it! Do what ever to make every aspect of the game fun.

At tournaments though you are playing FFG's game and there rules. People are trying to give themselves the best chance to win within those parameters and a TON of people have FUN doing it. Just because you don't enjoy a part of the game doesn't mean everyone feels the same way. Me standing on a soap box trying to change FFG's rules and systems to make it match my definition of fun just doesn't feel right for me. Either I will adapt to have fun, accept that I don't like every part of the game but I like enough to keep playing and have some fun, or I will just move on to another game competitively that matches my idea of fun.

I don't think it's subjective that turrets ruin the game. The game is (supposed to be) about maneuvering your ships well and anticipating your opponent. Fat turrets, especially Super Dash, don't at all have that aspect to them. Non-turret ships typically have to give up shots in order to arc dodge well, turrets give up nothing when they do this.

I don't see a problem with forcing people to fly ships in line with what this game is supposed to be about. FFG nerfed swarms with the Super Phantom and changes to MoV, then they nerfed the Super Phantom, I don't see what would be the big deal with nerfing dumb pancakes ruining 55% of the games.

How many more regional top 8's have to be 7/8 fat turrets before we can all agree that this is obnoxious? Can we go back to having a meta based around 'normal' lists please? Where maneuvering well is rewarded?

It is completely subjective that "turrets ruin the game" many people think that they are fun and fine. Don't presume to know the spirit of the game. Lmao at forcing people to fly ships in line with what YOU think this game is supposed to be about. Sorry I'm playing FFG's X-wing not Paragoombaslayer's X-wing. If you truly think they RUIN the game then why on earth do you continue to play it? Why not just play casually with your friends and store mates? Why not house rule your own stats and fixes for these ships? Heck go out and design your own game? Why we should dumb the game down to a level where you are competitive?

Do you seriously not see how you can flip that argument and use it against pro turret people?

Many people don't think turrets are fun, you can't presume the game is about big turret ships, lmfao at forcing people to use turrets in line with your thinking, if you think starfighters ruin

The game why not just play at home?

It's quite simply a terrible argument and your still throwing in ad hominem's, when you have to resort to implied insults you need to realize how little weight your stance has and rethink.

It is completely subjective that "turrets ruin the game" many people think that they are fun and fine.

Do you seriously not see how you can flip that argument and use it against pro turret people?

For the people who say that there complaints are that the turrets are just not fun to play against then why don't you just accept that there is a part of the game that maybe you don't enjoy. Wouldn't that be better than trying to make your subjective view on fun everyone's view on fun? Some people really like flying turrets. Some people really like flying tie swarms. Some people really like flying arc dodgers. How about instead of speaking for everyone and pretending to be the definitive voice of fun and the spirit of the game, you just play the game?

Seriously think of the worst game of x wing you ever had. Isn't it better than working though?

At home with friends you can play how ever you want, if you all agree that han should have to guess an arc before moving and he only have 1 attack dice and every ship get a free evade token when attacked by the falcon then so be it! Do what ever to make every aspect of the game fun.

At tournaments though you are playing FFG's game and there rules. People are trying to give themselves the best chance to win within those parameters and a TON of people have FUN doing it. Just because you don't enjoy a part of the game doesn't mean everyone feels the same way. Me standing on a soap box trying to change FFG's rules and systems to make it match my definition of fun just doesn't feel right for me. Either I will adapt to have fun, accept that I don't like every part of the game but I like enough to keep playing and have some fun, or I will just move on to another game competitively that matches my idea of fun.

I don't think it's subjective that turrets ruin the game. The game is (supposed to be) about maneuvering your ships well and anticipating your opponent. Fat turrets, especially Super Dash, don't at all have that aspect to them. Non-turret ships typically have to give up shots in order to arc dodge well, turrets give up nothing when they do this.

I don't see a problem with forcing people to fly ships in line with what this game is supposed to be about. FFG nerfed swarms with the Super Phantom and changes to MoV, then they nerfed the Super Phantom, I don't see what would be the big deal with nerfing dumb pancakes ruining 55% of the games.

How many more regional top 8's have to be 7/8 fat turrets before we can all agree that this is obnoxious? Can we go back to having a meta based around 'normal' lists please? Where maneuvering well is rewarded?

It is completely subjective that "turrets ruin the game" many people think that they are fun and fine. Don't presume to know the spirit of the game. Lmao at forcing people to fly ships in line with what YOU think this game is supposed to be about. Sorry I'm playing FFG's X-wing not Paragoombaslayer's X-wing. If you truly think they RUIN the game then why on earth do you continue to play it? Why not just play casually with your friends and store mates? Why not house rule your own stats and fixes for these ships? Heck go out and design your own game? Why we should dumb the game down to a level where you are competitive?

Do you seriously not see how you can flip that argument and use it against pro turret people?

Many people don't think turrets are fun, you can't presume the game is about big turret ships, lmfao at forcing people to use turrets in line with your thinking, if you think starfighters ruin

The game why not just play at home?

It's quite simply a terrible argument and your still throwing in ad hominem's, when you have to resort to implied insults you need to realize how little weight your stance has and rethink.

Exactly why it is subjective. Difference is I'm not advocating changing the game.