I think it is significant that Melisandre was quickly whisked back just before the "For the Watch" pokey session. She was present in Castle Black in the book as well, which ended Jon in exactly the same situation.

But this is odd because he is also a warg and wouldn't necessarily need her in order to outlive his body. Curious!

Here's a pretty solid read on all the clues pointing to his survival. Some of the Melisandre quotes are pretty in-your-face obvious.

http://www.businessinsider.com/game-of-thrones-is-jon-snow-dead-or-alive-2015-6

“I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.”

She is looking into the flames, and sees a vision of Jon Snow. Melisandre watches, and notes that his figure changes: “Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again.”

The finale was a mixed bag, in terms of high notes and low notes. Some characters got a good ending, others a bad one. I thought the season ended rather well, in all fairness. Too bad I have to wait the better part of another year to find out what happens next.

I think it is significant that Melisandre was quickly whisked back just before the "For the Watch" pokey session. She was present in Castle Black in the book as well, which ended Jon in exactly the same situation.

But this is odd because he is also a warg and wouldn't necessarily need her in order to outlive his body. Curious!

Because the men of the Night's Watch would totally be cool with a Lord Commander who is also a direwolf, right?

(I haven't seen any of Season 5. I've only read the books. So, since it sounds like what happened at the end of book 5 happened at the end of season 5, I'm just spitballing about what happened.)

Obviously he's not going to be Lord Commander anymore, but it seems like a lot of things are in place that can allow him to continue to exist. It was a virtually identical end to his end in the books.

I don't think we have any PoV characters or even decent guys left on the Wall in the book or show. Maybe someone is going to blow that horn.

I just thought "you doves are so very screwed".

I don't think we have any PoV characters or even decent guys left on the Wall in the book or show. Maybe someone is going to blow that horn.

Dolorous Edd is still around if I'm not mistaken. Not a bad guy, and pretty funny in the books.

Jonny boy will be alright.. we know what red priests can do, and series-Melis has shown rather a lot of interest in him already. He is too important and central in the whole thing to die. Loads of deads (even to the usual standards) in this episode though, but only some clearly shown. They're only dead if there's a body, and only then one that certainly won't be reanimated by Red Priests or Qyburns...

Was glad to see Varys and Tyrion re-unite. Looking forward to seeing what they get up to.

Yea I'm really looking forward to the first post-Victarion Mereen chapters in the books.

The ended was sort of meh to me. Like **** that sucks. But also the show has so numbed me to important people dying it just didn't shock me or make me feel anything. Which is lame. Shows should make you feel when stuff like that happens and this show has conditioned me to not really be shocked anymore.

I get the feeling that Jon will be back. Malisandre will bring him back. And then the two of them and the Nights Watch loyal to Lord-Commander Snow will probably pardon the rank-and-file traitors and burn the leaders as an offering to the Red God.

Wrong thread...sorry guys. Not sure how that happened?...

Valar morghulis.

Ive started considering the TV show to just be a seperate entity.

Im tired of going 'that doesnt happen' 'who the faff is she? (robs battlefield nurse wife etc) or 'this bits better in the books' to my wife.

Its good in its own right. I think Season 5 got more on track but took some totally unneccesary deviations (sansa/ramsay totally uneccessary and they completely ignored the corsairs from the iron isle or whatever - long time since ive read the books)

I think Jon will be resurrected to lead the kingdoms of men but be a different person, beric dondarion is a shadow of his real self when resurrected, as is lady stone whatsit/catleyn stark.

Then again im also of the 'jon is lynaa and thingy targaryeans son, not eddards' school so he might survive another way and unite with dinarys to lead the 'fire' against the 'ice' of the others and white walkers.

I remember predicting massive plot deviations in a 'butterfly effect' halfway through season 3.

The finale was a mixed bag, in terms of high notes and low notes. Some characters got a good ending, others a bad one. I thought the season ended rather well, in all fairness. Too bad I have to wait the better part of another year to find out what happens next.

On the bright side,at least everyone's in ther same metaphorical boat this time, both book readers and show-watchers alike.

(in typical Game of Thrones fashion) I'm interested to see who gets what out first - Martin's book, or D&D's series.

Its good in its own right. I think Season 5 got more on track but took some totally unneccesary deviations (sansa/ramsay totally uneccessary and they completely ignored the corsairs from the iron isle or whatever - long time since ive read the books)

See, I disagree. I don't think the changes were unneccesary at all. The changes for TV have (for the most part) resulted in a much tighter, more focused and coherent story as far as I'm concerned - something that is absolutely necessary for a TV audience. Sure, the producers could have left Sansa and Littlefinger at the Eyrie for a season and not visited them at all while simutaneously re-introducing a bit-part character that hasn't been seen since season one for the Winterfell arc, but what sense would that have made? Same with the Iron Islands - sod all actually happens there in the books other than the introduction of a plethora of extra characters that don't actually do very much at all when it gets down to it other than take up page space.

If we were sticking to the books, an amazing actress like Michelle Fairly would have been brought back to basically stand there, look angry and decompose; Jamie would be having one-sided conversations with the mute Ser Ilyn Payne in the Riverlands, the magnificent Bronn would have vanished from the story entirely and we would never have seen the amazeballs battle at Hardhome.

I agree about splitting them, but there are actually fewer t**s and w****s in the show. I think the show has a way of distilling what's most important out of the books. The fact that Meslisandre came back to Castle Black, for example. It would be interesting to hear the perspective of someone who saw the show before reading the books. Besides the obvious, "Who the hell is Victarion?"

Valar morghulis.

Sometimes they must also do some serving before or after their death though.

I think we have seen the last of Jon Snow.

But not the last of Jon Targaryen

The show must go on without the books so it's good that it's doing it's own thing instead of slavishly following the written material.

I think we have seen the last of Jon Snow...

...my original thought was that Jon was one of King Robert's bastards. Of course, I watched series one before I read the books.

The whole "Ned's too honorable", followed by Ned's concversation with Robert about their wild warmongering days, Ned tracking down Robert's King's Landing offspring and the entire dark hair dominant gene thing made me wonder if Ned was looking after one of Robert's first illegitimate kids.

Which technically would mean Jon would have kingsblood, and explain Melisandre's instant recognition of and interest in him...

...but then of course, I read the book descriptions of Snow and despite the TV character having black hair, the book character did not.

R + L = J is about as close to true as the books get. If it's not true then a significant amount of dialogue was just there to distract us with a completely beliveable and obvious truth that every character somehow fails to see.

My issue with the show is that HBO are exploitative and basically put any scene they can in a brothel to have naked girls on screen.

We call HBO 'had boobs out' in our gaming group (the girls in the group came up with that) as nearly everything they do is just littered with gratutitous nudity (Rome is a good example).

While i agree Robs existance in book 3 is largely letters written home and i can see why they need to keep the amount of 'main players' to a level the average guy can handle they do just seem to deviate for no apparent reason at all.

Like bran hasnt been in this season but his whole 'trip to the north' would have been better done and more expediently so with the cold hands storyline, it would have been more interesting too. But instead they just made up lots of random encounters and dragged it out.

I have a feeling GoT the show is going to end when the books plot ends, i dont think its going to be indefinite and carry on after the books. Their might be a spin off show but all the interviews ive read tend to imply it has a finite arc.

Im really against shows that just lumber on til the ratings drop and then get axed. id rather quality plot that knows where its going.

But honestly, while their is a lot of brothels and food in the books... the HBO version makes it look like 'littlefingers' joint is the westeros version of 'cheers' bar.

Seriously dude there's as much male nudity you see more Wang in a season than I do in a locker room in my entire life.

Where's the outrage over that?

Im not saying there is any outrage, im saying it gratuitously put in and scenes are put in brothels or bedrooms that dont occur in the books in them purely to get more screen nudity and pull in more viewers.

I just find it a bit cheap.

I don't think the nudity is at all surprising. My wife and I have already read them all, but we're listening to the whole series on audiobook now.

Clash of Kings basically takes place entirely in brothels with lots of bits in view. Somewhere on the Internet someone added up some of the more vulgar events from the books versus the show and the show was actually pretty tame.

I play alongside lots of women online they love GoT and have never once heard a complaint about nudity.

The show is down right egalitarian in its treatment of characters, young or old male or female they all die alike they all suffer abuse at the hands of others.

No again you miss my point.

I don't think its misogynistic, i don't think it homophobic, i dont think its denigrating of peoples peccadilloes/

its incredibly balanced and liberal in its display of sexuality.

The point is that its *excessive* in its sexuality compared to the books.

Take the sansa/ramsey 'non consensual intercourse' to avoid using the censored R word plot.

Totally unnecessary , not in the books, purely to titillate a tv audience.

On a minor level, mole town was pretty much portrayed as being entirely 'brothels', its a fully functioning small town, the tv show however had *everything* happen in a brothel,likewise in kings landing nearly *everything* happens either in a palace bedroom or a brothel.

Trust me, im a *really* liberal guy, im very comfortable with sexuality. In the past as a Dj who has played internationally I've Dj'd gay pride, LGBT nights and fetish events. Im totally cool with whatever someone wants to do if they are not (genuinely and non consensually) hurting others but my point is that while the novels are sexually charged the TV show *exploits* this by 'over egging the cake' and using the smallest/slightest pretext to have nudity or sex.

I'd say that the TV series is pretty gratuitous, having about 50 per cent more 'raunch' than the books but this is typical of HBO from my experience.

I've excavated Pompeii, i've studied roman history and i'm fully aware of how liberal Roman culture was but HBO 'rome' was ludicrous at times