I've been using Engine Tech and Wulff on a Demolisher for a good few games now but my opponent today picked up on something.

Basically, what I do is fire, move the ship, see where it lands, then decide whether to fire or move again. In this particular instance, I fired, moved, fired, then decided to move again. I said I would spend my maneuver token, blah blah blah but he countered that I couldn't do it because I should've "spent" the token when I first moved. Since I moved then fired, that was in line with Demolisher but since I didn't declare spending my maneuver token on the initial move and since I already fired my shot, it was too late to spend my maneuver token to trigger Engine Tech. I think my command dial was Concentrate Fire for that turn as well.

Now I've always been guilty of being fuzzy on when certain tokens can be spent and it took a good few games to wrap my head around the Concentrate Fire token and command dial combo, so I'm not sure which one of us is correct. I could always say that he should've been a sport player and let me do it anyway but it was an event for FFG goodies so I understood his competitiveness..... plus I never played the guy before so I didn't force the issue as I wasn't sure as well.

Any thoughts? Thanks!

That's right, you can only trigger engine techs if you've done a navigate command. If you didn't use the token on your initial move then you've no way to trigger the engine techs in the first place, never mind say you're going to use the token on the second move.

A couple of things.

First I suggest that if you run into something like this at an event you should call a judge over to make a ruling.

Did you reveal and spend a command token that turn? Because that makes a big difference on what you can do.

The Engine techs text say " After " you execute a maneuver, you " may " exhaust this card to execute a speed 1 maneuver.

On page 3 of the Rules Reference under Commands section it says: Navigate resolve during the " determined course " step of movement

And on page 5 under "Effects and Timing" it states that an " after " effect occurs immediately after the specified event.

You can use Engine techs if you revealed and spent your command dial, and/or token, during the " determined Course " step of movement. Even if you did not actually change your speed or yaw, you can still count the command as resolved.

Now if you didn't reveal a navigate command and/or use a Navigate token during the " determined course " step then you can not use Engine Techs later after you have executed a maneuver because you did not full fill the Navigate requirement.

You can correct me if I am wrong, but from what I am reading you did not use your command dial, and/or token, during your determined course step of movement and tried to use your navigate token after you had moved. If that is the case, your opponent was correct in saying you can't use Engine Techs. And he may or may not allow you to use Engine Techs.

wtfboar is spot on with this one.

You have to use the token/dial at the start of your first move well before you decide to use techs. Once you have moved and made that second attack you are well past the chance for using the nav token/dial.

Yeah, I did not have a Navigate command and although I already had a Navigate token, I did not declare I was using it. Up until this guy caught it, me and the other guys playing this have been "lazy" in this and doing it like I said... moving, then deciding whether to spend the Navigate token and Wulff it back.

This made me look again at the rules and realize the mistake. Thanks for the clarification and I'm glad I learned something today.

Since you can spend the token without effect every turn and put it back on the ship with Wulf, I'd just get into the habit of doing that every time you move the ship. Decide if you want to increase/decrease speed or not, spend the token, put it back on. Then later on you always have the option of using the Engine Tech, but you don't have to trigger then if you decide you don't want to.

Since you can spend the token without effect every turn and put it back on the ship with Wulf, I'd just get into the habit of doing that every time you move the ship. Decide if you want to increase/decrease speed or not, spend the token, put it back on. Then later on you always have the option of using the Engine Tech, but you don't have to trigger then if you decide you don't want to.

The problem with that though is if you ever want to use Wulf to keep another token you cant.

True, but I found with that combo it was always better to be able to use engine techs every turn. Turn 1 you do a Navigate and assign the ship a token. The rest of the turns are normally either concentrate fire or repair.

I guess there might come a point where you have a repair token, do a repair command and if you've taken a lot of damage you might want to keep it for a future repair.

Or if Tarkin is your admiral.

Yeah, I've just been lazy with declaring this with Wulff plus I never really thought about it before it was brought to my attention.... like I said, I've always been fuzzy on when command dials/tokens can/should be spent.

I'll be sure to do it proper next time.

You're actually not able to perform the maneuver you described even if you had used the Navigate token.

You described "Fire, Move, Fire, Move". Engine techs can only be activated after you execute a maneuver. Firing after your first move means that you're trying to move after firing, not maneuvering.

You're actually not able to perform the maneuver you described even if you had used the Navigate token.

You described "Fire, Move, Fire, Move". Engine techs can only be activated after you execute a maneuver. Firing after your first move means that you're trying to move after firing, not maneuvering.

Ah, but the firing and the engine tech movement are both 'after' movement, and as the executing player you can chose the resolve them in any order.

So that last move is not 'after' fire, but 'after' the previous move - and thus valid.

You're actually not able to perform the maneuver you described even if you had used the Navigate token.

You described "Fire, Move, Fire, Move". Engine techs can only be activated after you execute a maneuver. Firing after your first move means that you're trying to move after firing, not maneuvering.

I think you might've missed the "Demolisher" title I mentioned in the first post.

Engine Techs can be activated after I execute a maneuver provided I spend a Navigate token or had a Navigate command. So basically, I fire, do my normal move, and at this point, I can either fire again then move (Demolisher then Engine Tech), or move again then fire (Engine Tech then Demolisher). As both abilities activate due to the move, I can choose the order to do them in.

No, I see Demolisher. But the wording of the card is "after you execute a maneuver". I agree that you can choose the order in which to do them, but once you fire, you've broken that chain. You're now attempting to maneuver after firing. You can choose the order that they activate, but they're still activating in that order, not simultaneously.

My understanding is that engine techs can only be used immediately after a maneuver. If that's not the case, then I need to re-evaluate my use of Demolisher. (this would make me very happy though)

*edited for clarity*

No, I see Demolisher. But the wording of the card is "after you execute a maneuver". I agree that you can choose the order in which to do them, but once you fire, you've broken that chain. You're now attempting to maneuver after firing. You can choose the order that they activate, but they're still activating in that order, not simultaneously.

My understanding is that engine techs can only be used immediately after a maneuver. If that's not the case, then I need to re-evaluate my use of Demolisher. (this would make me very happy though)

*edited for clarity*

There is no "chain." Both Demolisher and Engine Techs trigger off the same event, and can therefore both resolve, in whatever order the ship owner sees fit.

RRG, Page 5, Effects and Timing

If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing,

that player can resolve those effects in any order.

It also helps that FFG has answered a rules question on this exact matter, and have indeed ruled that it is possible to:

Shoot -> Move -> Shoot -> Move

Shoot -> Move -> Move -> Shoot

Shoot -> Shoot -> Move -> Move

Just that you cannot

Move -> Shoot -> Move -> Shoot

Or any other action that relies upon using Demolisher twice in an activation (as that is forbidden by the timing of the card).

I'm understanding the rule that you can resolve them in any order. It doesn't say that they happen simultaneously. It says in any order. So when you go to use engine techs, they are in fact happening after an attack, not a maneuver.

If you've got a link to where FFG answered this question I'm happy to concede, and begin using Demolisher to greater effect.

I'm understanding the rule that you can resolve them in any order. It doesn't say that they happen simultaneously. It says in any order. So when you go to use engine techs, they are in fact happening after an attack, not a maneuver.

If you've got a link to where FFG answered this question I'm happy to concede, and begin using Demolisher to greater effect.

Its clear from the Timing section that both Demolisher and Engine Tech's card effects trigger as a result of the ship perfomring the maneuver. Therefore, as the controller, I can determine the order in which they are both resolved. Once the effect is triggered, its not undone like that.

There is no concept of a "chain" of effects. As long as the card specifies an event timing, and that event occurs, the card can resolve.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/176583-interaction-between-demolisher-and-engine-techs/?p=1646713

[edit - this was in resopnce to jmcb29]

I think you are missing the destinction between triggering and resolving a ability.

Once an ability is triggered, it must be resolved. When it is resolved it is not checking it's trigger again.

[edit - this was in resopnce to jmcb29]

I think you are missing the destinction between triggering and resolving a ability.

Once an ability is triggered, it must be resolved. When it is resolved it is not checking it's trigger again.

Ok, this makes more sense. Interesting - this peculiarity has been played wrong at several FLGS in my area.

Changes the way Demolisher works dramatically.

See? Demolisher is awesome! Welcome to the club!

Sorry to be a little dumb here - but I thought the token says if you use the navigate token you change your speed up or down by 1. Can someone show me where the rules state I can use the token but decline to actually perform the ability? I want to make sure I have it as a record for any tournaments I participate in . In my mind - to use Wulff and Engine Techs - I would get a nav toekn, use the token and exhaust Wulff....then eitehr speed up or speed down. I thought that was the onyl way to activate Engine Techs. If you can use a token and not use the ability - thats fantasitc news for me!

I'm pretty sure it says that you MAY change your speed by 1.

Its definitely clarified in the FAQ, stating that you don't have to use the effect, but can spend the token.

The FAQ says you do not have to actually do any of the effects of a command when you resolve it. Using a token is the same as using the dial, both are considered resolving the command.