Before you start the "Hothie's gone loony" posts, just hear me out for a minute.

The current meta that we are in is generally a 2-ship, high PS meta. These ships hit hard, and are tough to take down. And Brobots start at ps6, with the PS bid normally in the 8-10 range. The Phantoms, and I contend Engine Han and RAC, are to blame for pushing the meta into what we have now, but it is what it is.

With Andrew's recent article and the introduction of Autothrusters, I had a small epiphany. Maybe it's time to bring back Fel's Wrath (FW.)

Now I know most people don't like him for many reasons:

1. His ability only works when he dies, so he gets to use it once per game. True, but in this high PS meta, maybe getting that one extra 3 or 4 dice shot off could now make a difference, possibly trading him for another ship that is higher costed with higher PS.

2. his ability doesn't matter vs lower PS lists. This one is still valid, nothing I can argue here, except that maybe he is still an Interceptor with higher PS than them, so maybe he can pull one off the board before it shoots when he dies from the others' fire.

3. He doesn't have an EPT. This is still true, but there are ways to help him out here.

Consider this list:

"The Dustbin"

Howlrunner with Swarm tactics
Kir kanos with Autothrusters
Fel's Wrath with Autothrusters
OGP with Advanced Sensors, Fleet Officer, Tactical Jammer

The OGP can use ADVS to give 2 of the 3 ties focus, take a stress, then do a green maneuver to clear the stress. He also gives the ties an extra green die if your opponent attacks through him. Autothrusters helps FW out immensely as well for a very low cost.

I ran this list 3 times yesterday, as chronicled in my Diary on the battle Reports page. My first game on vassal he was the last ship alive for me (I conceded vs Etahn, a Z and an A.) But my 2 games on the table, one vs a triple interceptor list (Fel/Jax/Turr) run by a guy who has been running that list for months and went 4-2 in Denver with it, I beat him 100-0. FW had 1 hull left, so never got to use his ability. And then my second game on the table vs a Kath and 3 Z list, FW survived the whole game without taking a hit, again for another 100-0 win.

I found that FW generally didn't get shot at much, because people know that he is going to shoot back regardless. Plus the FO was giving him focus and evade a lot, and combined with Autothrusters, he was much harder to take down.

This list gives me 2 interceptors that both have focus and evade without the stress, which opens up their dial immensely. I was much harder to predict because I didn't have the stress. I have long been a proponent of not stressing your own ships, and with fleet officer I can still give them both tokens, or possibly a focus and boost or barrel roll if the situation warrants it.

So, just think about it for a minute. A 25 point FW might not be such a terrible option anymore, since he is still a PS5 3 dice shot with 3 defense and 3 hull. People generally don't want to shoot at him because they know he will get his last shot in. And with him not being stressed, he can use his entire dial, including K-turns (often with focus due to FO) if it gets him into a better position. You still have to try and fly him like an interceptor, getting shots while hopefully being out of arc if possible, but it can be done. Autothrusters helps his survivability, so he may never have to use his ability.

Compare FW with Autothrusters to a RGP with PTL. Both at 25 points.

1. RGP is PS6, so is susceptible to getting PS killed by higher PS targets. FW at PS5 is still susceptible to this, but he will get his shot off.

2. RGP can have double actions, but takes stress for it, which makes him predictable next round. FW can have double actions as well (although I am spending the points for FO on the OGP), but FW doesn't get the stress for it, which opens up his dial, making him far less predictable.

3. FW has autothrusters in this comparison, which will help his survivability over an RGP with PtL.

Or compare him to an RGP with VI and AT. This one is almost a wash to me, since they are both taking one action, but again the RGP can be PS-killed by a PS9+ and won't get a shot off, whereas FW will. And in this meta, you see a lot of PS9+ ships.

So, i dunno, maybe you will leave him to collect dust, but I don't think he is as bad now in this meta as he used to be.

Nah. Still way too situational for the price:

(1) Have to be killed by an opponent of higher pilot skill

(2) Have to die with a viable enemy in your arc

... all to use an ability once.

If he got another round of flying that would be something. Otherwise he gets shot in the back and his ability goes unused.

For fewer points, better to get an RGP or Saber and have the EPT slot.

Way to go, Hothie

EPT aren't the end all be all of the game. For example, hothie mentions several times that FW survives, whereas a royal guard pilot wil draw more threat, while not doing more damage or surviving any longer.

People really need to reconsider some of their long held beliefs about certain pilots. It's still an interceptor.

1. His ability only works when he dies, so he gets to use it once per game. True, but in this high PS meta, maybe getting that one extra 3 or 4 dice shot off could now make a difference, possibly trading him for another ship that is higher costed with higher PS.

2. I have long been a proponent of not stressing your own ships, and with fleet officer...

1. I had this same thought a while ago (about when Fat Han first started becoming a menace). Haven't tested it yet, though, now I'll have to give it a try sometime!

2. Heh.

Nah. Still way too situational for the price:

(1) Have to be killed by an opponent of higher pilot skill

(2) Have to die with a viable enemy in your arc

... all to use an ability once.

If he got another round of flying that would be something. Otherwise he gets shot in the back and his ability goes unused.

For fewer points, better to get an RGP or Saber and have the EPT slot.

(1) That is preceisely what the current meta is. Brobots are the low end of PS for the top squads at PS6, which means many of the squads you will face at tournaments will have higher PS than FW does.

(2) True, but this isn't as hard as you make it sound. High PS arc dodgers can get out of his arc, but you can also plan for that as well in your flying and squad composition.

What EPT are you going to put on a Saber or RGP that compares to base of 23? PTL Saber is 24, VI RGP is 23, PTL RGP is 25, and neither of those have an ability to use at all. You can think it's better for the points, but I'm not convinced.

1. His ability only works when he dies, so he gets to use it once per game. True, but in this high PS meta, maybe getting that one extra 3 or 4 dice shot off could now make a difference, possibly trading him for another ship that is higher costed with higher PS.

2. I have long been a proponent of not stressing your own ships, and with fleet officer...

1. I had this same thought a while ago (about when Fat Han first started becoming a menace). Haven't tested it yet, though, now I'll have to give it a try sometime!

2. Heh.

2. True, but with Advanced Sensors, I can use FO to take stress, then immediately clear it. So I won't have the stress from round to round.

Just, for example, let's say Luke takes 5 hits from a phantom at range one. On the first turn of combat. Rolls two blanks on defense. Is he suddenly completel without worth since his ability (which is situational) literally never went into effect?

We can keep going, let's say a swarm runs up on a RAC, and cheerio rolls 2 hits and a blank. No ability. The swarm proceeds to eat him alive

Is he suddenly worthless? There are so many ships and abilities that have zero guarantee to use their ability.

1. His ability only works when he dies, so he gets to use it once per game. True, but in this high PS meta, maybe getting that one extra 3 or 4 dice shot off could now make a difference, possibly trading him for another ship that is higher costed with higher PS.

2. I have long been a proponent of not stressing your own ships, and with fleet officer...

1. I had this same thought a while ago (about when Fat Han first started becoming a menace). Haven't tested it yet, though, now I'll have to give it a try sometime!

2. Heh.

2. True, but with Advanced Sensors, I can use FO to take stress, then immediately clear it. So I won't have the stress from round to round.

Oh I'm well aware of that, it was just a minor amusement on my part because it's a card that literally says what you just said not to do.

I think it does work. It's a good idea.

I thought of similar list that used Fleet Officer on OGP w/ Adv. Sensors. I went with:

Dark Curse

Night Beast

Backstabber

2 x Academy

I'd throw out the Focus on whoever was going to get shot that turn. Night Beast would try to get the free Focus on his own. Dark Curse was just annoying, especially if he had the Focus. Most of the time, I 'd throw it on the Academy Pilots, who then took an Evade. It made them extremely hard to kill. I was really surprised by it.

I don't think it's super competitive as it lacks the high damage dice for those Soontir w/ Stealth, but it's more than just a junk list. Your list covers the damage output and does the same thing. I think it's a good one.

1. His ability only works when he dies, so he gets to use it once per game. True, but in this high PS meta, maybe getting that one extra 3 or 4 dice shot off could now make a difference, possibly trading him for another ship that is higher costed with higher PS.

2. I have long been a proponent of not stressing your own ships, and with fleet officer...

1. I had this same thought a while ago (about when Fat Han first started becoming a menace). Haven't tested it yet, though, now I'll have to give it a try sometime!

2. Heh.

2. True, but with Advanced Sensors, I can use FO to take stress, then immediately clear it. So I won't have the stress from round to round.

Oh I'm well aware of that, it was just a minor amusement on my part because it's a card that literally says what you just said not to do.

Context man. The whole paragraph and list mean something, not just the sentence you cherry pick.

Advanced sensors and a green move cancel the stress in a span of time where no other game mechanic can apply stress. That means it's effectively stressless.

1. His ability only works when he dies, so he gets to use it once per game. True, but in this high PS meta, maybe getting that one extra 3 or 4 dice shot off could now make a difference, possibly trading him for another ship that is higher costed with higher PS.

2. I have long been a proponent of not stressing your own ships, and with fleet officer...

1. I had this same thought a while ago (about when Fat Han first started becoming a menace). Haven't tested it yet, though, now I'll have to give it a try sometime!

2. Heh.

2. True, but with Advanced Sensors, I can use FO to take stress, then immediately clear it. So I won't have the stress from round to round.

Oh I'm well aware of that, it was just a minor amusement on my part because it's a card that literally says what you just said not to do.

Context man. The whole paragraph and list mean something, not just the sentence you cherry pick.

Advanced sensors and a green move cancel the stress in a span of time where no other game mechanic can apply stress. That means it's effectively stressless.

I. *******. Know. I just found it amusing was all. Holy ****.

EDIT: Please ignore this tangent, people. Just read the OP and get on with thinking outside the box!!!

Nah. Still way too situational for the price:(1) Have to be killed by an opponent of higher pilot skill(2) Have to die with a viable enemy in your arc... all to use an ability once.

Whether you use the ability or not is irrelevant. He's still a PS5 Interceptor and can still be a really strong attacker. He's not going to suddenly vault into frequent competitive play but I think Hothie has illustrated that Fel's Wrath is at the least a playable option in the current meta.

And also, the "viable enemy" line in your post is curious to me. It doesn't matter what the PS of the enemy is, only if FW has a legal target in arc. If he has already attacked in the round in which he is shot down his ability is a moot point but if he hasn't had his opportunity to shoot then on his turn he can target any legal ship in his arc.

Yes, his ability is clearly situational but again with so many higher PS ships appearing regularly the likelihood of it triggering has also risen.

Nifty, but I think I'll still just keep taking Lt. Lorrir instead. Lorrir cleans up against lower PS ships, and even against higher PS ships he can be effective with some solid predictions of your opponents moves.

Wrath's ability is useless against low PS ships and even if it "triggers" you need to have a shot lined up, which may not be easy against high PS enemies.

There's definitely going to be situations where Wrath is more useful than Lorrir, those times he gets vaped but has a R1 shot lined up on a critical target and take them out with him, where Lorrir would've just died. But day to day, Lorrir will get you more mileage for the same price.

Nifty, but I think I'll still just keep taking Lt. Lorrir instead. Lorrir cleans up against lower PS ships, and even against higher PS ships he can be effective with some solid predictions of your opponents moves.

Wrath's ability is useless against low PS ships and even if it "triggers" you need to have a shot lined up, which may not be easy against high PS enemies.

There's definitely going to be situations where Wrath is more useful than Lorrir, those times he gets vaped but has a R1 shot lined up on a critical target and take them out with him, where Lorrir would've just died. But day to day, Lorrir will get you more mileage for the same price.

Fair enough. Lorrir is another dustbin pilot with a fun ability.

I still would prefer a RGP for 25 points. Repositioning isn't as important when fighting against turrets, but having the option to Focus+Evade seems more valuable than a once per game parting shot. It's also more useful against Brobots or lists that don't have a lot of pilots at 5+.

Not to say you're entirely wrong, just that Fel's Wrath still doesn't seem like a good value. In general I prefer pilots that can use their ability constantly, or threaten to. Like how IG-88D can complicate your opponent's turn just by existing, even if you never actually use the sharp 3 you can still get value from it. FW's ability has a much higher chance of never being used, and his pilot skill isn't high enough to really grab my attention. If I wanted PS5 I'd much sooner take Lorirr.

Just think of Fel's Wrath as a Royal Guard Pilot. He costs 1 pt more and has 1 less PS, but that rarely matters. Think of it as 1 pt for an ability that might really come in handy. How many lists do you face that don't have at least one high PS pilot?

I will take the PTL RGP at PS6 at 2 extra points any day of the week over PS5 Fel's Wrath with an at most once a game ability. Double actions and the ability to potentially move after Brobots make it no contest in my mind which I'd rather field. Thinking outside the box is great and is necessary for innovation in list building, but sometimes, as in this case the hive mind is correct. To date I have never seen Fel's Wrath played and barring a rule change or just a casual experimental list I doubt I will.

A lot of haters in this topic lol, I think it's a gd point to make, I'd jus use him to try n hunt a high ps ship down. He wouldn't suffer from stress to much and if ur flying him right will have a shot lined up, I'd definitely consider him now.

I've never played Lorrir or Fel's Wrath, but I'm just going to say that FW's ability is better than Lorrir's one. Having to take a stress to be able to do that seems to make Lorrir's ability a wash, doesn't seem worth it. It shouldn't cost a stress IMO.

FW at least has that Tarn Mison thing going for him, people might be reluctant to shoot at him. Either he's killed by a higher PS and he gets to shoot, or he has a higher PS and gets to shoot before dying anyways.

Would be cool if he would get a whole extra turn though.

Another argument in favor of Fel's Wrath in the current meta: the apparent popularity of Corran Horn. If the Hornster pops him in the End Phase the Combat Phase is another turn away!

That aside, I think he's interesting for messing with target priority in a list where he's one of the bigger guns. You could do a Howl Swarm with FW slotted in instead of a couple Academies. It gives you a bigger gun, which is useful for a lot of reasons, and against high PS stuff, he'll get his extra shot (or simply not be shot at because of his ability). Against lower PS stuff, you can build the squad at PS3 for most pilots, allowing them to plow under stuff like BBBBZ. He could still be a reasonable flanker against a squad like that, using barrel roll and boost to get good shots. It might be a little pricey, but it's not bad.

I will take the PTL RGP at PS6 at 2 extra points any day of the week over PS5 Fel's Wrath with an at most once a game ability. Double actions and the ability to potentially move after Brobots make it no contest in my mind which I'd rather field. Thinking outside the box is great and is necessary for innovation in list building, but sometimes, as in this case the hive mind is correct. To date I have never seen Fel's Wrath played and barring a rule change or just a casual experimental list I doubt I will.

Aye, the PTL RGP is hands down better. I think the question of Fel's Wrath or Lorrir comes in when you don't realistically have the two points to spare for the RGP. If you really want to squeeze in another INT into that list that can't quite afford a RGP with PTL, then Lorrir becomes very appealing. As I guess Fel's Wrath, if you're crazy enough to pick him over Lorrir. Sometimes saving those two points is critical to squeeze together the list you want.

I've never played Lorrir or Fel's Wrath, but I'm just going to say that FW's ability is better than Lorrir's one. Having to take a stress to be able to do that seems to make Lorrir's ability a wash, doesn't seem worth it. It shouldn't cost a stress IMO.

FW at least has that Tarn Mison thing going for him, people might be reluctant to shoot at him. Either he's killed by a higher PS and he gets to shoot, or he has a higher PS and gets to shoot before dying anyways.

Would be cool if he would get a whole extra turn though.

I can tell you, at least in my personal experience as someone who has played both, that you're wrong. Yeah, it'd be better if it didn't cause a stress, but you still have access to an Interceptor dial which is incredibly forgiving to stress. If stress was a serious issue for INTs, all those PTL ones wouldn't be so popular and effective.

Lorrir's ability can be lethal with a wee bit of practice and, as I said earlier, against low PS ships or with good guesswork against high PS ships (or pair him with SL Vader!). As I mentioned in another FW-centric thread a few days ago, I once had Lorrir chew threw three Warthog Ys all by his lonesome due to his ability to dance out of arcs. Fel's Wrath couldn't have done that. Situational, sure, but both of em are and I'd argue the requirements for Lorrir to get the most out of his ability are significantly less than Fel's Wrath. Worst case for Lorrir? Bunch of high PS ships and it becomes harder, though not impossible, to exploit his ability. Worst case for Wrath? Bunch of low PS ships and his ability is completely worthless. Lorrir can be a pain to kill while Fel's Wrath only gets a bonus over a generic INT if he dies.

Getting both the stress and no EPT will always hold Lorrir down from being a top tier pilot, but for his price and the power of his ability, he can be worth having around in a squad as a discount squint. I can't stress enough is ability to take apart lower PS pilots. Fel's Wrath, meanwhile, is nothing more than a generic squint that once a game might be able to fire one, last time... assuming a higher PS ship killed him and he has a target in arc when it happens. I think, perhaps, in a swarm setting he might be the better choice over Lorrir.

Lorrir's odd. He doesn't understand moderation and always goes for the extremes of usefulness. He'll either be little more than three hull upgrades or he'll carry the game by himself.

3. FW has autothrusters in this comparison, which will help his survivability over an RGP with PtL.

Does it? The Evade token you'd get off PTL's more powerful than the effect Autothrusters gives unless you're shot at a lot in one round, which is unlikely if you're against only two ships.

Nifty, but I think I'll still just keep taking Lt. Lorrir instead. Lorrir cleans up against lower PS ships, and even against higher PS ships he can be effective with some solid predictions of your opponents moves.

Wrath's ability is useless against low PS ships and even if it "triggers" you need to have a shot lined up, which may not be easy against high PS enemies.

There's definitely going to be situations where Wrath is more useful than Lorrir, those times he gets vaped but has a R1 shot lined up on a critical target and take them out with him, where Lorrir would've just died. But day to day, Lorrir will get you more mileage for the same price.

For Regionals season last year I ran with Lt. Lorrir, "Backstabber," Soontir Fel and Royal Guard Pilot. It was alright, but Lt. Lorrir was a soft target amidst all the turrets, and often got killed off before he could fire. I love his ability against lower PS pilots, however.

So for Nationals I switched him out for "Fel's Wrath." There was literally one time when FW got to use his ability, after "Mauler Mithel" blasted him at range 1. Unfortunately, I rolled 3 blanks and a focus (which I had saved because I knew FW was dead anyway). What a bummer! The rest of the games a PS 5 interceptor was pretty nice. He didn't draw fire like the good Lieutenant, but he was still able to do some clever piloting to outfly lower PS ships. Yeah, I'd try him again for sure.

Great writeup Hothie, I will look into a list where I can run Fel's Wrath for Wisconsin or Chicago!