Friend of the Dork said:

Good point, well made.

Friend of the Dork said:

I agree.

Lowering penetration to 3 like the Flamer should be sufficient.

Err, the flamer shoots promethium which is more or less napalm that instantly ignites in contact with oxygen and burns even underwater. The firebomb is a bottle of moonshine or gasoline with a burning rag in it. It's shouldn't be quite as effective.

It should either be primitive or have no penetration. And possibly should require a half action to ready (i.e. ignite it).

How do you tell the difference between primitive fire and advanced fire? There's nothing I know of that makes napalm a lot more deadly than a molotov cocktail, which usually has some sort of home-napalm in it. And why shouldn't it have pen, if the other fire weapons do? It ought to be easily broken, take a half action to light up (although many firebombs in WWII had a pull-tab that would light the thing, which would make it like a normal grenade) and be harder to trow accurately, but just as damaging and penetrating.

How do you tell the difference between primitive fire and advanced fire?

There's a difference between heat and heat (case in point, thermite vs. gasoline). Similarly, some materials will be more or less suited for getting into cracks in armour and sticking there. Burn time will also be important. Military grade weaponised fire is bound to be more lethal than whatever you can cook up in your garage.

Lexicanum on promethium for flamers: a highly volatile incendiary gel which immediately ignites on contact with oxygen. It reaches super hot temperatures. Similar to napalm, the gel sticks to an individual, continuing to burn on its own accord, even underwater.

There's nothing I know of that makes napalm a lot more deadly than a molotov cocktail, which usually has some sort of home-napalm in it. And why shouldn't it have pen, if the other fire weapons do? It ought to be easily broken, take a half action to light up (although many firebombs in WWII had a pull-tab that would light the thing, which would make it like a normal grenade) and be harder to trow accurately, but just as damaging and penetrating.

The other fire weapons are military grade stuff made only for destruction, the firebomb is at it's very best something you could put together in your garage. The flavour text even describes it as a primitive grenade.

Graspar said:

You shouldn't underestimate incendiaries and munitions made at home. Napalm is jellied gasoline, which basically means gasoline mixed with substances to make it thick. This was a main reason why the militairy wanted this, to improve the ease of weapon manufacture, get it more stable (less prone to lit up when handled by soldiers, ability to stick to enemies and vegetation, and range.

Even the superior napalm burns with the temperature of 1200C, while normal gasoline burns usually from 900C-1250C (depending on size of flame, hottest to warmest point etc.).

The main difference here is that DH flamers doesen't require a flame to ingnite the incendiary (such as RL flamethrowers would need), thus promethium has some of the properties of White Phosporus.

Still the diffence between being burned with either substance is not significantly different, you usually die anyway and I see no reason why DH armor should be particularily resistant to them. Also it doesen't deserve the moniker "primitive" as you need a fairly advanced modern society to produce these weapons over the counter.

So penetration 3 means that normal flak armor is insignificant against these weapons, and at these temperatures that's pretty much the case. Even a fireman in normal turnout coat would be in serious trouble if hit directly by a coctail, and only an Entry suit would be adequate to protect against these temperatures in a short duration of time.

However, although not explicitly stated, a firebomb should require at least a half action to ignite and prepare for throwing (and possible a seperate ready action to just draw it), although it could concievably be drawn from a belt, lit with a preset match (like they had in the winter war), and then thrown in 5 seconds (one turn). A incendiary grenade on the other side should be faster to prime and throw/shoot. And alot less risky to wear.

You shouldn't underestimate incendiaries and munitions made at home. Napalm is jellied gasoline, which basically means gasoline mixed with substances to make it thick. This was a main reason why the militairy wanted this, to improve the ease of weapon manufacture, get it more stable (less prone to lit up when handled by soldiers, ability to stick to enemies and vegetation, and range.

Even the superior napalm burns with the temperature of 1200C, while normal gasoline burns usually from 900C-1250C (depending on size of flame, hottest to warmest point etc.).

The main difference here is that DH flamers doesen't require a flame to ingnite the incendiary (such as RL flamethrowers would need), thus promethium has some of the properties of White Phosporus.

Still the diffence between being burned with either substance is not significantly different, you usually die anyway and I see no reason why DH armor should be particularily resistant to them. Also it doesen't deserve the moniker "primitive" as you need a fairly advanced modern society to produce these weapons over the counter.

So penetration 3 means that normal flak armor is insignificant against these weapons, and at these temperatures that's pretty much the case. Even a fireman in normal turnout coat would be in serious trouble if hit directly by a coctail, and only an Entry suit would be adequate to protect against these temperatures in a short duration of time.

Oh yes, I agree that there's room for interpretation either way. But in my book game balance requires that grenades for 5 thrones a piece be significantly worse than the 70 thrones counterpart. Primitive firebombs, btw, is still rather dangerous against all kinds of armour below carapace.

The dangerous part of fire weaponry is the chance to continue to burn after the initial attack, firebombs with no penetration or primitive still does this. If you catch on fire the armour does nothing, that represents the sticking and burning bit of the fire and it is quite the same no matter what fire you get hit by. 1d10, no armour and one fatigue every round until death or a successful drop-and-roll.

Well then we have a fundamental disagreement, as I'd rather have"realism" in my grim darkness over game balance. If players can come up with a way to make firebombs, by all means let them. But it may be worth your time to get the WIlly Pete or napalm grenade so you can use it in your underslung grenade launcher or whatever.

f firebombs do 1d10+3 E pen 6 with blast (3) AND a chance to set stuff on fire while plasma weapons (that realistically have a temperature of several million degrees celsius to gasoline's 1200) do 1d10+6 pen 6 you're going to have a serious problem with the weapons comparative damage output. I know it's an extreme example, but it makes the point quite nicely. Being shot with barely contained starfire should hurt a lot more than it does, and lots and lots more than firebombs. As is the firebomb is actually better.

Sure, realism can be great but a system that's not built for it is not going to produce realistic results even if you do change one or two weapons, you have to change it all to get any accuracy.

And no, my point is not that a plasma pistol should one shot biotitans, but that no part of the game is isolated from the rest. Keep firebombs too high compared to other stuff in the system and the game will be poorer for it.

I refer back to the last page, where I showed Ross Watson's opinion of the matter. It is planned for it to be changed to Pen Zero.

segara82 said:

Ah, yes .. quoting myself.

Since i made the Fire-bombs easily breakable (just like ordinary glass bottles) my group is not very fond of them. I mean, who likes to get hit by enemy fire and then even have your own bomb go off on you?Same goes for the enemy as well, 't was like a birthday party, suddenly igniting a whole squad of mooks by hitting their firebomb. Of course my PCs did not blow out the candles, they watched them burn.

I always rationalized the Pen 6 because the firebomb liquid was more fluid, and more liable to get into all the bits and cracks and vulnerable points of the armor, unlike the flamer's promethium which was much stickier and tended to burn just where it hit.

My group doesn't have an issue with an overuse of firebombs, so it was never a concern for us regardless.