I am surprised by that response as well. If they are going to allow you to mark the table then they might as well let you triangulate. It's going to be the same thing. How many markers can you have on a table at once?
Now as for slow play, one can pretty quickly check where their squadron will be and where if it will engage another squadron. Now. If you stop and start tapping your lip, we'll that would be slow play
Just a note. I was present at the tourney which L2 videoed and the two players in that game are both good friends of mine. They had not read about triangulation being off limits at the time that game had been played and most of the players were brand new. Those two guys would never cheat in a game and are both long time gamers. They would have no way of knowing that was off limits because who would think to make that off limits in a full pre-measure game. I was surprised when i read it. I assume FFG thinks it makes a game take longer, so if that is why I guess I can see it. But it really makes no big difference that I can tell after a few dozen games.
In any case, I let them know that FAQ was out there and also let the TO know.
This will be far more important with larger ships I think. Though people will likely using the full 3x6 by then so there will be situations where a ship will be more than 2 feet out from another (their original target gets destroyed and the next closest target is half way across the board
Yet another use for those little "L" shaped counters. White Board markers also work as would a good old 2B Pencil.
Can two players agree to allow full and accurate measurement using both the measurement and maneuver tools and just ignore that portion of the tournament rules? I agree with Perakkir, this will not speed up play at all and will if anything slow it down. So if I can I would rather just play with permission of my opponent and do away with it.
Most games only need a hand full of measurements to be accurate, usually when you are trying to avoid entering two arcs on a ship that may shoot before you activate or you are going to be just in or just out of range or a range band. Most players don't need every move to be 100% before they execute the move after all.
The tournament rules are just for tournaments. Now if you plan on playing at tournaments, not abiding by the rules for them will help you develop bad habits
A clarification on something I read here that confused me. It's common practice for me and my friend to adjust the Man Tool how we want it, slot it in, move the mini, then realize wait this is a terrible decision. Move the mini back to it's original place, then realign the tool and move the mini again. Now this is obviously not kosher in a tourney setting because it creates room for fudging and slow play.
BUT, is it legal to adjust the tool, slot it in to the mini, decide the move is a terrible idea, remove and realign the tool, and then reslot it to the mini? Or is it touch-play? IE: When the tool touches the mini, you are committed.
The tournament rules are just for tournaments. Now if you plan on playing at tournaments, not abiding by the rules for them will help you develop bad habits
They were playing in a tournament
A clarification on something I read here that confused me. It's common practice for me and my friend to adjust the Man Tool how we want it, slot it in, move the mini, then realize wait this is a terrible decision. Move the mini back to it's original place, then realign the tool and move the mini again. Now this is obviously not kosher in a tourney setting because it creates room for fudging and slow play.
BUT, is it legal to adjust the tool, slot it in to the mini, decide the move is a terrible idea, remove and realign the tool, and then reslot it to the mini? Or is it touch-play? IE: When the tool touches the mini, you are committed.
Once you slot the tool into the mini, you're committed to the move.
Yep. You can bend it around, and hold it above, and make your decisions that way - but once you slot it into the miniature, the *only* time you can re position it is if you've slotted on the wrong side and would overlap the tool. even then, you're only allowed to slot it on the other side - NOT change the Maneuver.
Yeah, it really can't be an actual mitigator of slow play - although maybe FFG thought it might be as a knee-jerk.
Someone wants to know if a move by his ship will take it in range of an enemy sets the maneuver tool down near his ship and checks range with the range ruler...done.
Someone has to guess if they will be in range...could be standing there tapping their lip for a very long time.
Funnier that this is a science fiction game in which the sentients have figured out FTL. Think they'd have a range finder and a course plotter that weren't mutually exclusive...
The tournament rules are just for tournaments. Now if you plan on playing at tournaments, not abiding by the rules for them will help you develop bad habits
To be honest I expect to play by the rules in the rulebook. I understand your point, but bad rules don't make good habbits, I would rather we get good rules and good habbits.
Anything more than what is in the rulebook should be avoided or changed only if the rules are found to not work in a comeptitive environment. With the additional verbage in the tournament rules I see more unclear areas, problems and potential to misuse the rules than just leaving us be to ourselves and the rulebook.
There is nothing inherantly slow in activating a ship, inserting the tool in the approximate plan, measure range and change a yaw here or there.
@Amanal I am not seeing the bad rules though. If you want to play by the rules then play by the rules.
As for slow play, if someone is doing it 2, 3, 4, 5, times per ship just to make sure that their move is precisely where they want it, and won't get shot at, or such then yes it will eat time. Think of a 6 ship CR90 swarm double checked every move twice. How long per ship do you think it would take? I don't see any issue with this rule, it's not hard to get and it makes sense.
@Perakkir, your example of putting the maneuver tool down after slotted in and then using the range tool would be an example of using 2 tools. You have not finished with 1 of the tools yet and are using a second to give you move information.
You know Perakkir, back in 40k 5th edition, we all developed a skill to guesstimate how far things were, s9me people used a acrylic tool that they knew was X" long off on the side of the board to give them reference. Under our current rules people can do that here. It is not 100% accurate but it is indeed a thing.
Yes, that was an example of what the tourney FAQ has made illegal. I am just saying it seems pointless to make it illegal. Its not faster to take that away from a new player and have him stand there guessing instead. And it is a full premeasure game, so why take away one version of premeasure and make all the rest ok?
Yeah, I played GW for a lot of years. For every player who claimed to be a great range guesser, I played 20 who stood there for a while wasting our time only to get it wrong anyway...
Tricks to the trade.
As for slow play, if someone is doing it 2, 3, 4, 5, times per ship just to make sure that their move is precisely where they want it, and won't get shot at, or such then yes it will eat time. Think of a 6 ship CR90 swarm double checked every move twice. How long per ship do you think it would take? I don't see any issue with this rule, it's not hard to get and it makes sense.
Let's me just say there is slow play for the purpose of gaining an advantage and there is a player who recognises that he needs to be careful with the following move and therefore wants to get it right. If someone playing slow to gain an advantage is cheating, and that should be delt with in a proper manner and without predjudice.
As such this discussion for me has nothing to do with slow play as a means to gain an advantage, that 6xCR90 will be trying to get to medium range but avoid getting to close range if your target had black dice. There is about a two turn window that affects us here and perhaps that player wants to get it right. So for a short space of time I beleive I may just have to be patient and accept that my opponent is cautious.
If I played RAW I could insert the tool in an approximate shape as to indicate my planned move, measure range from your ship find that I was 5mm inside close range and adjust a yaw, then pick up my ship and plant it down. I have said previously the tournament rules could have just had the move be "locked" in at the point my ship leaves the table and that seems fine. I have a few core sets and have a two speed maneuver tool and four speed maneuver tool, that I have found helps avoid moving squadrons and ships.
With the tournament rules, I don't quite insert my maneuver tool in the approximate shape of my move, I then use "L" shaped token to mark my base, I may then need to allow some extra measurements to ensure my shield dials can fit where I want them and/or measure ranges. If I am not happy I click my maneuver tool a yaw or two and repeat.
Possible problems:
What are the posible problems that playing RAW presents that these rules are overcoming?
Justify this rule for what it does, I can't.
The email I got back off FFG they did say they there were looking at redoing that section of the tournament rules to make things more clear, so might we worth waiting till the latest version comes out and see what changes they have come up with. I imagine the next version will come out around the same time Wave 2 gets released.
I think your confusing what "using two tools" entails. In order to use something in this game you have to handle it. You would have to have 2 tools in hand or have laid one out yourself. If your opponent is giving you free information, how are you cheating? You did not place, you did not ask your opponent to place it so there is no triangulation issue.
Now your example of being 5mm in/out, how would you know other than dropping a finger in an approximate guess and then measuring from there. Now I have don't this and found variations do occur.
You are right there are 2 types of slow play. Sadly slow play is just that, slow play. The reasoning behind it matters not to your opponent who is hoping to get all 6 turns done and see who wins. If you are taking several minutes to figure out what your doing, start planning earlier and get far more used to the maneuver tool.
Ah, so we are not allowed to have both the range ruler and maneuver tool on the table at the same time, but marking a spot on the table with a finger, or better yet - a token, is considered legal?
It's basically the same thing, but instead of just plopping down the range ruler then the maneuver tool, we've added a third step. Plop down the range ruler, mark whatever range with a token (and take off the range ruler), then use the maneuver tool. I'm guessing I understood this correctly?
Just to be clear the questions and answers I sent and got back with regard to marking range with your finger or token were all to do with squadron movement as I felt the game shouldn't come down to who can best guess distance 1 when moving squadrons.
James appears to agree with that from his answers.
However when it comes to moving ships that could be a whole different issue.
Send another email?
Did I say you could not have both on the table at the same time? Stop being obtuse and read what I taking the time to post.
You can use only 1 tool at a time. To use a tool would be for its intended function. To use a maneuver tool you have to be setting it up for a maneuver, to use a range rulers you have to have it in your hand to measure. Off to the side is just an approximate which is what using your finger does, same with a token, etc. It is a rough estimate. I mean how hard is this to understand.
Did I say you could not have both on the table at the same time? Stop being obtuse and read what I taking the time to post.
You can use only 1 tool at a time. To use a tool would be for its intended function. To use a maneuver tool you have to be setting it up for a maneuver, to use a range rulers you have to have it in your hand to measure. Off to the side is just an approximate which is what using your finger does, same with a token, etc. It is a rough estimate. I mean how hard is this to understand.
You talking to me or Gibbobobo? Just wondering where the attitude is coming from.
To you. Your "Ah, so we are not allowed to have both the range ruler and maneuver tool on the table at the same time," comment comes off as sarcastically obtuse.
Ha! I wasn't even talking to you, I was talking to Gibbobobo (his post with the FFG reply). That was a statement of conclusion.
In a game wherein terms such as "at, within, beyond" and other terms need to be defined, the wording of the tournament rules for Measuring were open to different interpretations and Gibbobobo's email reply from FFG clarifies things. If you read the earlier parts of this thread and other threads, it'll be plain to see where the confusion comes from. I'll not repeat them all here since I'm so obtuse.
To use a tool would be for its intended function. To use a maneuver tool you have to be setting it up for a maneuver, to use a range rulers you have to have it in your hand to measure. Off to the side is just an approximate which is what using your finger does, same with a token, etc. It is a rough estimate. I mean how hard is this to understand.
Haha! You really think you need to say that? ****, I was measuring with the maneuver tool this whole time! No wonder all my ships could do was to fly straight... I was using the range ruler the whole time!
Please read and understand the thread before you start coming off as a total .... and start calling other people names.
Edited by Intys RuleI think your confusing what "using two tools" entails. In order to use something in this game you have to handle it. You would have to have 2 tools in hand or have laid one out yourself. If your opponent is giving you free information, how are you cheating? You did not place, you did not ask your opponent to place it so there is no triangulation issue.
What page is this from? If you are using two tools you are using two tools. Doesn't matter who put them there or how they got there.
You asked me to play by rules I think are a train wreak, and yet you apply a different version of those rules unto yourself.
These new rules create more problems than they seem to solve, now we have to define what constitutes the use of a tool, whose tool it is and who used it last. We now need more rules to fix that rules than don't even solve the problem you say they are there to fix in the first place.
Let me ask you again, how do these rules improve the RAW? You have to have something better than because FFG said so?
@Amanal, alright oh wise and knowledgeable one. How would you word the rule?
Off to my response.
Where is this different version? To use a tool you must be using it for its intended function. A range ruler on the side of the play area is not being used for its intended function. Hell it's not even in use. Is it possible for someone capable to get a rough estimate on distances from that, yes. Will it be accurate, no.
You guys need to play more games. That or understand how this is going to work. FFG made multiple sections of the range ruler different sizes. Those are Range 1 and the Medium range, because of this people have to be able to measure to figure things out. Now, I have yet to see a token that is the size of a squadron base and if someone has a thumb that thick, can I please call you Little John or Goliath?
Since a finger is not the size of a squadron base nor is a token you still have several mm's or better worth of distance that could mess up your premeasure of an opponents squadron or ship. Simple logic there it seems. So the rolling still makes sense.
Now for people like me who bought 2 or more core sets, we have 2 range rulers. We could if the triangulation rule was not there use that for measuring a squadron move and at the same time watching for an engagement. In fact before I knew the triangulation rule was a thing (that's to this thread) I had done that and so had many other players. We fixed it and have no issues.
I have found that this is a simple rule and while many of you complain about its uselessness I have found that it actually works. Testing, who knew.
Let's drop back on the range ruler off to the side concept. Now while yes, once can use it as am estimation tool, as I stated earlier it has different lengths at certain ranges. That messes with the guess work and only assists in a few situations.
Now I don't do this but I am pointing it out that it is a thing.
There is another issue and that is people flaunting the fact that they are using this trick. One can tell because they either have 2 range rulers side by side one on each side or will flip the ruler to a side that is important. They could move it as well but that would constitute as in use until they pick up another tool.